Automated Save Function?

[Beebop]

Something I would like to see added is a way to set an automatic 'Save' function in the ME.

A couple of times I have been deeply engrossed in setting up the complex logic for a particular mission objective and during the process forget to 'Save' on a regular basis.  Then I hit a wrong set of keystrokes and the ME crashes to desktop with none of the last 30~45 minutes worth of work saved.  ?  Yeah my bad but it is still very frustrating.

In my old Paintshop Pro program there was a way to set an automatic save every 'X' amount of time.  Yes, when that time came around everything stopped for a couple of seconds but I never lost work I had already done.

Something similar would relive a lot of stress to the mission building process.

I doubt this could be made as a mod as it probably would violate the Terms of Use about "changing" the game.  I figure if that kind of a mod could be made one would have already been made for an 'Undo' function.

 

REQUEST:

Dev's, I know your focus is on game content but could someone p l e a s e add an "AutoSave" and "Undo" function to the ME?  There's a lot of things we would like and I understand your time and resources are limited but these two items would make mission building a lot easier for everyone in so many ways.  Please?

(i know i'm pissing in the wind but...if you don't ask...)

 

Just venting.  This game requires a lot of venting sometimes.?

 

If anyone has any ideas about how I could streamline saving during building I an all ears.

[RedKestrel]

This has happened to me a few times on CAD-style or GIS software, its incredibly frustrating, but lots of 'professional' grade software seems to avoid including an autosave function, for reasons that defy logic.

My favourite was a mapping software that 1) had an autosave, 2) the autosave prevented you from using the undo function after it autosaved on you, and 3) did not actually autosave the map you were working on all the time, so not only were you unable to undo errors, if your map crashed you had a fifty-fifty chance of losing all the work you had done.  

[Beebop]

You make a good point.  It could be worse!  "Autosave" that doesn't autosave.  What project manager approved that?  I tell you code writers have this vicious streak in them. 

"BAWHAHAHA!  GOTCHA!" ?

 

And I realized there is an 'Undo' function but it is disabled. (?)  How hard would it be to re-enable it?    You could make a lot of mission builders REAL happy!  Consider it.

[Nolly]

Autosave can cause functionality problems if it happens during other activities, so it can do more harm that good:

 

Example: If i run an SQL query in excel while its autosaving the whole thing crashes.

 

I'd imagine the same thing would happen if it tried to autosave when the ME is doing the big flickery refresh thing whenever you copy and paste a lot of objects. What happens if you are in an advanced properties menu? or something else where you are in a menu within the ME: selecting planes for an airfield?or editing the weather?

 

Autosave could be more of a curse than a blessing, and would almost certainly be a painful feature to add for the devs.

 

I suggest using a timer on your phone to remind you to save every 10 mins.

[Jaegermeister]

3 hours ago, Beebop said:

If anyone has any ideas about how I could streamline saving during building I an all ears.

 

Ctl + S ... 

[Gambit21]

9 minutes ago, Jaegermeister said:

 

Ctl + S ... 

 

lol exactly.

 

I take the same approach that I do when working in 3D apps etc, which is save often - any time that I do something I'd find annoying to do over again...which is all the time.

Additionally I save a copy in my "safety" folder because more than once I've had a file become corrupted upon saving...once or twice with each campaign build. 

Also auto-save might save a mistake that I just made before I have a chance to re-load the mission.

 

All in all auto-save is the least of the problems.

Ctrl-s is easy enough.

[JimTM]

2 hours ago, Jaegermeister said:

 

Ctl + S ... 

 

Easy. Just install that between chair and monitor.  

[Zooropa_Fly]

I hit 'cntrl S' after just about every action.

It's automatic these days.

 

S!

 

[Beebop]

OK.  As for saving during functions I was thinking of a script that would only autosave if nothing else was happening, not during selections etc.

I'm just looking for shortcuts to compensate for a), the fact that almost every function seems to take forever and b), my lack of whatever it is I'm lacking. 

(maybe I missed my calling, I should have become a "lacky"  ? )

So on to a new memory tool for the ME, "Human Autosave" via Ctrl+S.

.

But there's still the matter of the disabled Undo function..................

[BlackSix]

I would like to have an Undo feature, but I'm against autosave. Saving a mission can take from 1-2 seconds on the Stalingrad map and up to 10 seconds or more on the Rhineland map. This will interrupt your actions in the most unexpected moments and can damage the mission.
 

13 hours ago, Beebop said:

Then I hit a wrong set of keystrokes and the ME crashes to desktop with none of the last 30~45 minutes worth of work saved.

I'm sorry, but this is complete madness. If you want to work with the editor you must save the mission every 2-3 minutes at least and make a backup after each session.

[JG4_Deciman]

Hi there

 

Undo would be nice, but in case of a crash after some strange clicks it would not change anything...

Saving the mission (by hand) from time to time is almost the same as 'undo'.

And on creating more complex missions this is a MUST BE DONE for every user.

 

And before asking for any updates on the editor I'ld request an update for the dServer...

Afaik the dServer uses only 1 core.

So the server performance is directly related to the core speed.

Having multiple cores (and having more cores is default for any hardware) will not let you have a more powerful server running.

You can only have multiple servers running at the same time (what only few hosts need), but the power of each server is directly influenced by the core speed.

 

In fact a single core (really outdated!) pentium PC running at 3 GHz is a more powerfull server than a modern 8 core cpu running at 2 GHz/core

 

Deci

 

 

[Beebop]

On 7/29/2020 at 1:06 AM, BlackSix said:

I would like to have an Undo feature...

 

 

[Gambit21]

On 7/29/2020 at 6:35 AM, JG4_Deciman said:

Saving the mission (by hand) from time to time is almost the same as 'undo'.

 

It really isn’t.

[BlackSix]

3 hours ago, Beebop said:

 

Try to use Ctrl+Z and tell us about results...

[RedKestrel]

On 7/28/2020 at 5:51 PM, Beebop said:

You make a good point.  It could be worse!  "Autosave" that doesn't autosave.  What project manager approved that?  I tell you code writers have this vicious streak in them. 

"BAWHAHAHA!  GOTCHA!" ?

 

And I realized there is an 'Undo' function but it is disabled. (?)  How hard would it be to re-enable it?    You could make a lot of mission builders REAL happy!  Consider it.

Basically the way the program works is, it makes a completely separate map that it called "AutoSave" and then saves your work to that every set interval of time that you specify. Unfortunately, as people in this thread pointed out, autosaves often screw things up if you are in the middle of a process when the save occurs. So it would autosave in the middle of adding a new feature or editing some properties and get all borked. In this case it doesn't corrupt the main file but the autosave file gets corrupted silently. So the program crashed, my main map had lost about 20 minutes of work, and the autosave file wouldn't even open. So I relearned the lesson of "save frequently".

 

Another piece of software I used had a habit of failing to notify you when the database you were working in had a schema lock (usually from having had another map open that didn't free up its schema locks after closing) so it would happily let you do your edits, even letting you 'save' your edits...but when you later went to reload the data, the changes hadn't been made...it just failed silently and ate hours of work because another instance had neglected to let you pry the database from its cold, dead hands. Luckily they fixed the issue with a patch...silently. 

[Beebop]

2 hours ago, BlackSix said:

Try to use Ctrl+Z and tell us about results...

Cryptic. 

Well I tried it.  Placed a couple of objects on a premade test map and after the last placement pressed Crtl+Z.  Nothing happened.  I placed another object, left it highlighted and did it again.  Nothing. What was the point of that exercise please?  Yes, I know that "Undo" is greyed out, meaning it's not functional.   Is Crtl+Z the keyboard shortcut for Undo?

 

The point of the screenshot was you had said you wished there was an Undo function and the ME clearly has one but it's been disabled.  My implied question was if there is one in the tool bar can it be enabled?  If it's a disabled development tool used to create maps and something you'd rather not have us mess with, why not just remove it instead of teasing us with a tool that we cannot use.  Why not only put out an ME with the tools needed to make missions?

We can take certain surface textures and move them around with the 'Surface Edit' tools, only some of which are enabled, but when doing so only the user can see the results.  Others viewing the map cannot.

Respectfully, why are these partial and greyed out tool functions even present in the user ME?

[RedKestrel]

2 hours ago, Beebop said:

Cryptic. 

Well I tried it.  Placed a couple of objects on a premade test map and after the last placement pressed Crtl+Z.  Nothing happened.  I placed another object, left it highlighted and did it again.  Nothing. What was the point of that exercise please?  Yes, I know that "Undo" is greyed out, meaning it's not functional.   Is Crtl+Z the keyboard shortcut for Undo?

 

The point of the screenshot was you had said you wished there was an Undo function and the ME clearly has one but it's been disabled.  My implied question was if there is one in the tool bar can it be enabled?  If it's a disabled development tool used to create maps and something you'd rather not have us mess with, why not just remove it instead of teasing us with a tool that we cannot use.  Why not only put out an ME with the tools needed to make missions?

We can take certain surface textures and move them around with the 'Surface Edit' tools, only some of which are enabled, but when doing so only the user can see the results.  Others viewing the map cannot.

Respectfully, why are these partial and greyed out tool functions even present in the user ME?

Either its some kind of default tool present in the GUI thats just been left in place and has no code for the function, or its some incredibly dry humour.

 

[Beebop]

1 hour ago, RedKestrel said:

...or its some incredibly dry humour.

Desert dry.  Most aren't laughing after having to tear apart/rebuild/pull up a basic backup and redo.

If it's non-functional, for whatever reason, remove it.

And just saying "you know it doesn't work so ignore it" doesn't quell the frustration of, after making an error, seeing the non-functioning icon starting you in the face and knowing it can't and probably won't ever be functional.

 

As for my "autosave" request, I can see now how not only might it be difficult to implement but also have unwanted consequences.  Thanks to all for the insight.

(However it makes the ability to 'undo' even more important IMO).

[BlackSix]

8 hours ago, Beebop said:

Cryptic. 

Well I tried it.  Placed a couple of objects on a premade test map and after the last placement pressed Crtl+Z.  Nothing happened.  I placed another object, left it highlighted and did it again.  Nothing. What was the point of that exercise please?  Yes, I know that "Undo" is greyed out, meaning it's not functional.   Is Crtl+Z the keyboard shortcut for Undo?

 

The point of the screenshot was you had said you wished there was an Undo function and the ME clearly has one but it's been disabled.  My implied question was if there is one in the tool bar can it be enabled?  If it's a disabled development tool used to create maps and something you'd rather not have us mess with, why not just remove it instead of teasing us with a tool that we cannot use.  Why not only put out an ME with the tools needed to make missions?

We can take certain surface textures and move them around with the 'Surface Edit' tools, only some of which are enabled, but when doing so only the user can see the results.  Others viewing the map cannot.

Respectfully, why are these partial and greyed out tool functions even present in the user ME?

You should have reduced the level of aggression, such communication will not lead to any results.
I'm using the same editor as everyone else and I'm facing the same problems. This feature does not work and it is not known whether it will be implemented in the future.

Moreover, the editor itself is intended only for internal work. By popular demand, it was made available to everyone, but we do not have the ability and resources to bring it to a more convenient form.
All that can be done in the current situation is to train yourself to press Ctrl + S after every important action.

[Hoots]

41 minutes ago, BlackSix said:

All that can be done in the current situation is to train yourself to press Ctrl + S after every important action.

 

So much this, early in my career my boss told me to save as often as you would like to redo the same piece of work, so if you want to redo 30 minutes work, save every 30 minutes. Best advice a boss ever gave me. System reliability has increased massively these days but I still hit Ctrl + S constantly, I hate redoing work.

[JG4_Deciman]

7 hours ago, BlackSix said:

I'm using the same editor as everyone else and I'm facing the same problems. This feature does not work and it is not known whether it will be implemented in the future.

Moreover, the editor itself is intended only for internal work. By popular demand, it was made available to everyone, but we do not have the ability and resources to bring it to a more convenient form.
All that can be done in the current situation is to train yourself to press Ctrl + S after every important action.

 

And to bring it to the point...

 

WITHOUT that mission editor being available to everyone (and there is no doubt - it could be more comfortable in use)

- there would be NO scripted campaings

- there would be no multiplayer servers (TAW, Berloga, Finnish Virtual Pilots, Combat Box, ...)

except the ones released or hosted by the company.

 

UPDATING the editor would mean the small developers team would

- use their resources to update a program used by a very small part of the users

- not be able to create new maps/planes/...

- not be able to fix major bugs

- not be able to update graphics

(or every update/fix would take much longer)

 

And before you start crying...

I use the editor, and I've started using it with 'Rise Of Flight'

It became much more comfortable with every month (or problem solved) using it.

It became much more comfortable with every update (modifying/resetting timers/counters b.e.)

And right now I would say, there is absolutely NOTHING that cannot be 'worked around' by the users.

 

There are only 2 limits:

The server resources and you being willing to create what you want with the given possibilities.

 

Save your missions from time to time.

Save with a new name from time to time

Try to figure out what can be done (and in fact, that will require your brain when trying it)

And in case you really found a bug (I found some) that bug is in most cases not related to the editor,

but to the game engine.

 

S!

 

Deci

 

Edited July 31, 2020 by JG4_Deciman

[Beebop]

Apparently I'm an idiot for even bringing this up.

Sorry.

I'll just shut the f*ck up from now on.

[Zooropa_Fly]

I don't think you've said anything you're not entitled to Beebop.

It's a double-edged sword - I don't think after all this time the devs can still justifiably say we were lucky to get it etc etc.

Fact is without user access to the ME, the game would be a very different thing these days, and lacking for it.

But they're probably sick of the same kind of conversations - you certainly ain't the first !

But as a newer user I very much understand such frustrations with the ME.

However, the other fact is there's clearly no plans to devote any time to it, which we muct accept.

 

So you've asked, found out, we move on, nowt to worry about.

Cntrl-S

 

S!

 

[Hoots]

1 hour ago, Beebop said:

Apparently I'm an idiot for even bringing this up.

Sorry.

I'll just shut the f*ck up from now on.

 

Nobody said that. What people have said is that yes it's not perfect but a simple solution is to just save frequently. Which is a good idea no matter what area you work in. Just because people disagree with you and offer alternative solutions doesn't mean they're calling you an idiot and that you should shut the f*ck up. Claiming that though, well that's another discussion

[Beebop]

If asking if the product can be improved is "madness" or "aggressive", then there are a  lot of crazy angry users around here.

[RedKestrel]

2 minutes ago, Beebop said:

If asking if the product can be improved is "madness" or "aggressive", then there are a  lot of crazy angry users around here.

The 'madness' was in relation to not saving for 30 to 45 minutes, which we've all done before but is a real problem with less stable software like this. In a way modern, stable, user friendly software has destroyed our caution in regard to these things, and older software or specialized professional stuff comes back to punish us for our trust. 
 

If you and Blacksix weren't conversing across an Internet forum and a language barrier I think you'd both realize that you are dealing with the same frustration - missing functionality in the ME - and this is making people tetchy. There are only so many times you can have the same conversation before you just start jumping down people's throats, even if the person didn't really do anything wrong. And the only thing worse than dealing with an issue you can't fix, is feeling you are being blamed for an issue you can't fix. And on the flip side, there is no frustration like data-loss frustration.

 

Unfortunately dev tools and specialized software are often pockmarked with stuff like this - and they get left that way because they are not intended for the general public and there is often no money in fixing them, and most people using them are experienced users who instinctively swerve around the potholes without even noticing they are there. 



 

[BlackSix]

1 hour ago, Beebop said:

If asking if the product can be improved is "madness" or "aggressive", then there are a  lot of crazy angry users around here.

Beebop, I really didn't want to offend you, I just wanted to explain the current situation with mission editor. Unfortunately, there is a really language barrier, some phrases may seem offensive to you, although I wanted to put a completely different meaning in them. I see my problem and I'll try not to participate in the difficult discussions of this kind anymore.

[DD_Arthur]

23 minutes ago, BlackSix said:

Beebop, I really didn't want to offend you, I just wanted to explain the current situation with mission editor. Unfortunately, there is a really language barrier, some phrases may seem offensive to you, although I wanted to put a completely different meaning in them. I see my problem and I'll try not to participate in the difficult discussions of this kind anymore.

I think Beebop simply didn’t realise you were sharing your frustration with the tool you have to use professionally with your fellow mission builders.  S! BlackSix.

[Beebop]

@BlackSix

Understood.  You are right, it most likely was a language issue.  I understand that your and the Team are besieged with all kinds of requests for things that are either inappropriate to the game or just plain outlandish and I can only imagine the frustration it brings to keep seeing that kind of stuff.  And I understand that even if you agree that something could be changed there are limits to your time and resources for some things.  I'm sorry that I added to that burden.

I do understand that you are part of a very small, underfunded (compared to the industry giants) team doing your best to give us the best game possible while keeping it historically and physically as accurate as current computer technology allows and balancing that with what we as consumers are using to play it.

Even with all that the teams response and effectiveness of resolving the recent AMD video card issue was amazing.  I am but one person with an issue on a feature that, as noted in a previous post, is not used my a large percentage of the customer base.

So what I will do is rather than ask for things, take the time to search the forums and see if that has already been asked for and what the response was.  If the subject has not been covered I will take a more wait and see approach.  Meanwhile I will come to grips with my perceived "inadequacies" of the ME and heed the advise of more experienced users.

 

Again, thank you for taking the time with me and not just dismissing me as yet another disgruntled user.

 

@RedKestreal, you also make some excellent points.  I have become a bit complacent with "... modern, stable, user friendly software (that) has destroyed our caution in regard to these things, and older software or specialized professional stuff comes back to punish us for our trust."

[RedKestrel]

7 minutes ago, Beebop said:

 

 

@RedKestreal, you also make some excellent points.  I have become a bit complacent with "... modern, stable, user friendly software (that) has destroyed our caution in regard to these things, and older software or specialized professional stuff comes back to punish us for our trust."

I realized this in myself after struggling for a week or two with some new software I was complaining about in this very thread - couldn't get to grips with it, was an absolute bear and even got snippy a couple times at my wife when she asked what I was growling about. Thinking back to some of the hilariously unstable software I had learned previously, I realized those things would not have bothered me as much before since by comparison it was not even so bad. Like a reverse of the boiled frog. Eventually I just steeled myself to plowing through the vertical learning curve and dealt with it. The software is still buggy and unreliable but it is powerful and I can make it do what I want for the most part.

[Beazil]

14 minutes ago, Beebop said:

@BlackSix

Understood.  You are right, it most likely was a language issue.  I understand that your and the Team are besieged with all kinds of requests for things that are either inappropriate to the game or just plain outlandish and I can only imagine the frustration it brings to keep seeing that kind of stuff.  And I understand that even if you agree that something could be changed there are limits to your time and resources for some things.  I'm sorry that I added to that burden.

I do understand that you are part of a very small, underfunded (compared to the industry giants) team doing your best to give us the best game possible while keeping it historically and physically as accurate as current computer technology allows and balancing that with what we as consumers are using to play it.

Even with all that the teams response and effectiveness of resolving the recent AMD video card issue was amazing.  I am but one person with an issue on a feature that, as noted in a previous post, is not used my a large percentage of the customer base.

So what I will do is rather than ask for things, take the time to search the forums and see if that has already been asked for and what the response was.  If the subject has not been covered I will take a more wait and see approach.  Meanwhile I will come to grips with my perceived "inadequacies" of the ME and heed the advise of more experienced users.

 

Again, thank you for taking the time with me and not just dismissing me as yet another disgruntled user.

 

@RedKestreal, you also make some excellent points.  I have become a bit complacent with "... modern, stable, user friendly software (that) has destroyed our caution in regard to these 

With that thoughtful and well written post, please accept this token "upvote" from this lurker.

Blacksix, don't stop talking to your users ever please.  Language barrier or not, your posts and information (and recent interview) demonstrate just what kind of leader you are.  Your English is excellent.

 

Love the discussion.

[Beebop]

1 hour ago, JG51_Beazil said:

Blacksix, don't stop talking to your users ever please.

I was remiss in getting this sentiment included in my previous post.

Despite my railings you remained civil even if I misunderstood your intent.  That's all on me.

We need to hear from you and everyone on the Dev Team every now and again.  It keeps you from appearing aloof when in fact you are all committed beyond belief.

Please don't let our misunderstanding silence you in any way.

[Gambit21]

3 hours ago, BlackSix said:

I see my problem and I'll try not to participate in the difficult discussions of this kind anymore.

 

Alex, you don't have a problem.

Always a pleasure to hear from you here - stick around.

[Zooropa_Fly]

22 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

Alex, you don't have a problem.

Always a pleasure to hear from you here - stick around.

 

Second that ?

[jollyjack]

On 7/28/2020 at 8:46 PM, Beebop said:

Something I would like to see added is a way to set an automatic 'Save' function in the ME.

A couple of times I have been deeply engrossed in setting up the complex logic for a particular mission objective and during the process forget to 'Save' on a regular basis.  Then I hit a wrong set of keystrokes and the ME crashes to desktop with none of the last 30~45 minutes worth of work saved.  ?  Yeah my bad but it is still very frustrating.

In my old Paintshop Pro program there was a way to set an automatic save every 'X' amount of time.  Yes, when that time came around everything stopped for a couple of seconds but I never lost work I had already done.

Something similar would relive a lot of stress to the mission building process.

I doubt this could be made as a mod as it probably would violate the Terms of Use about "changing" the game.  I figure if that kind of a mod could be made one would have already been made for an 'Undo' function.

 

REQUEST:

Dev's, I know your focus is on game content but could someone p l e a s e add an "AutoSave" and "Undo" function to the ME?  There's a lot of things we would like and I understand your time and resources are limited but these two items would make mission building a lot easier for everyone in so many ways.  Please?

(i know i'm pissing in the wind but...if you don't ask...)

 

Just venting.  This game requires a lot of venting sometimes.?

 

If anyone has any ideas about how I could streamline saving during building I an all ears.

 

Usually a crash happens when (re-) grouping stuff, save before you do?

[Gambit21]

15 minutes ago, jollyjack said:

 

Usually a crash happens when (re-) grouping stuff, save before you do?

 

....and when just grouping

....and when panning around the map

....and when saving

....and when pasting something

 

[jollyjack]

Some times i get the feel that in complicated setups after messing around in existing groups it's best to save for safety, then export the group and delete it.

After that re-import the group again and things seem more stable ?? Too much time consuming troubles ?

 

 

Edited September 14, 2020 by jollyjack