Anti-Air Commanders Cupola MG on the German Tanks?

[[KG]Destaex]

I notice the Sherman has an .50 cal on the cupola but that the German Tanks do not seem to have the MG34\42 mounted. Was this a late war thing for the Germans? 

[Goosevich]

Nope, the MG34 on the commanders coupola was a rare late-war thing afaik. Also those tanks usually had 2 MG's still, they moved one MG34 (panzerlauf?) to the commanders coupola while marching for AA use (rarely). Again i can be wrong im writing that from the top of my head ?

[[KG]Destaex]

That makes sense. Cannot imagine the MG34 doing much to an aircraft. But a company of tanks with .50 cals I can. All firing at the same time. 

You learn something every day in Tank Crew. 

[69th_chuter]

I've shot down over a dozen planes now with the 50.  (Finnish server)

 

It's crazy how a plane will come swooping in, pass after pass, taking out helpless AI AA until it comes after me and ... ooops ... it's trailing smoke and fluids and limping away, occasionally not making it very far.  The easiest shot you have is the one where the plane is flying right at you.  I've been wounded twice and killed only once in dozens of encounters.

[Lofte]

If we talk about Panthers it was planned to equip Panther "D" with AA MG Mount from 1 Aug 1943.

But these plans were failed by tank plants. So these mounts appeared in combat units much more later, I suppose in late 1943-mid 1944.

 

[[E621]dotDeutschland]

That reminds me of a quote my Hauptfeldwebel said to me in Tankers school:
"Das Fla-MG ist, obwohl die Namensgebung es anders vermittelt, Hauptsächlich für das Unterdrücken und Bekämpfen von Bodenzielen ausserhalb des Schwenk bereiches des Koaxial MG's zu Benutzen, da man einen Heutigen Kampfjet damit eh nicht trifft oder wenn man Trifft dann damit kein Wirkung erziehlt, vielleicht schreckt man ihn ab, das ist es dann aber auch"

"The AA-MG, even though the Name might imply otherwise, is Mainly used for Suppression or Destruction of Ground targets that are outside of the Elevation of the Coaxial MG, since todays Jets are nearly impossible to hit, and if you hit you do bearly any demage, youll maybe scare the pilot, but thats about it."

Edited October 4, 2020 by [N.O.G.F]dotDeutschland

[super-truite]

I hope it is added at some point regardless of historical use in 1943. It adds a lot of fun when playing with the Sherman. could be added to late panther/tiger versions coming as collector vehicles ? I think there is also a business argument for the devs ^^: some people that play with me ended buying TC because they tried various positions in my tanks in MP. The more stuff other crew member can do, the more likely people will pay for TC.

[Goosevich]

So much for the game being sim (and finished while we're at it) then

[LachenKrieg]

10 hours ago, super-truite said:

I hope it is added at some point regardless of historical use in 1943. It adds a lot of fun when playing with the Sherman. could be added to late panther/tiger versions coming as collector vehicles ? I think there is also a business argument for the devs ^^: some people that play with me ended buying TC because they tried various positions in my tanks in MP. The more stuff other crew member can do, the more likely people will pay for TC.

The battle of Prokhorovka took place on July 12 1943. By July 1943, Tiger tank production included the redesigned turret with anti-aircraft machine gun mount. I might be wrong, but I think collector vehicles for this module, especially now that it will be available on Steam, would help build the user base.

[super-truite]

16 hours ago, Goosevich said:

So much for the game being sim (and finished while we're at it) then

What I meant is that despite the period chosen by the devs for campaigns/missions, the community can develop missions that take place in other time frame. With Normandy and Bodenplatte, there would be plenty of room for that. And it would allow to sell collector vehicles with minor modifications to the current ones. If the installation of so called AA MG was  very anecdotal on german tanks even in late war, I understand the concern though.

[LachenKrieg]

2 hours ago, super-truite said:

What I meant is that despite the period chosen by the devs for campaigns/missions, the community can develop missions that take place in other time frame. With Normandy and Bodenplatte, there would be plenty of room for that. And it would allow to sell collector vehicles with minor modifications to the current ones. If the installation of so called AA MG was  very anecdotal on german tanks even in late war, I understand the concern though.

I couldn't agree with you more, I think collector vehicles will prove to be very successful with this module if done properly. And based on the two that have already been announced, first impressions are that they will be well modeled. Combining collector vehicles with the various map options would certainly create lots of possibilities without a huge outlay in development costs as you mentioned. But in terms of a simulator, there is nothing anecdotal about it. By the time the battle at Prokhorovka took place, mid production Tigers were coming off the assembly line. And virtually all of these tanks have the mounting support for an AA MG. Even the Panther ausf D had a ring mount added to equip an AA MG in August 1943. So there would be nothing historically inaccurate to include this equipment, even if it wasn't popular for the Commander of a German tank crew to man a turret mounted MG when he is outnumbered 40 to 1 on the battle field.

 

 

Edited November 19, 2020 by LachenKrieg

[Goosevich]

It wasn't popular since noone issued a 3rd MG-34, if the crews had the AA mount they had to take the hull mounted MG and throw it "upstairs"

[LachenKrieg]

Yeah and I can just imagine why the list of volunteers to stand up there on that balcony was pretty short! But the question here seems to be more about anecdotal evidence and whether it would be historically accurate to include an AA MG on the turret. Tiger tanks after July 1943 could certainly equip a turret mounted MG. This was even possible as a retrofit on Panther tanks after August of the same year. The question you seem to be addressing is whether it is historically accurate to suggest that German tank commanders were driving around pointing an AA MG all the time. I would agree with you, no they weren't.

[SCG_judgedeath3]

Time for me to come in here:

Yes the middle production tiger started to get produced by middle of 1943 and the picture you posted has the new commander cupola, but none of those were at kursk, but around late august early september they started to come to the frontlines.
No tiger at kursk had the cupola machine gun, the same with panther, panzer IV etc, but if I find some documents or pictures showing otherwise this is the case.

To the second matter: Yes its fully possible to add it to the game and make like with the airplanes and tanks: you can chose the set up, remove/add machine gun, skirts etc, and make it possible to do more versions of the same tank, we should have smoke chargers btw.
But as the game focuses on kursk: it would be wrong as those tanks didnt have it then.

But if we aim for the model alone and change the games description to not be 100% about kursk but have it simulate mid/late 1943 then I dont see any issue with having the mg.

[Callsign_112]

1 hour ago, SCG_judgedeath3 said:

Time for me to come in here:

Yes the middle production tiger started to get produced by middle of 1943 and the picture you posted has the new commander cupola, but none of those were at kursk, but around late august early september they started to come to the frontlines.
No tiger at kursk had the cupola machine gun, the same with panther, panzer IV etc, but if I find some documents or pictures showing otherwise this is the case.

To the second matter: Yes its fully possible to add it to the game and make like with the airplanes and tanks: you can chose the set up, remove/add machine gun, skirts etc, and make it possible to do more versions of the same tank, we should have smoke chargers btw.
But as the game focuses on kursk: it would be wrong as those tanks didnt have it then.

But if we aim for the model alone and change the games description to not be 100% about kursk but have it simulate mid/late 1943 then I dont see any issue with having the mg.

Yes you make a good point, but maybe you didn't read the whole thread. I wasn't saying that the mid production tank was there on July 12. The original comment by Super_turite was that he was hoping to see AA-MG's added to late model Tiger/Panther variants in the form of collector vehicles. These vehicles could be used on the historically relevant maps, which would make a turret mounted MG historically correct.  

[SCG_judgedeath3]

1 minute ago, Callsign_112 said:

was that he was hoping to see AA-MG's added to late model Tiger/Panther variants in the form of collector vehicles. These vehicles could be used on the historically relevant maps, which would make a turret mounted MG historically correct.  

Yep I missed that as the discussion seem to have gone elsewhere, but you´re right. But yes if they do add the later versions they should have the mg as a option with all the other stuff the tanks could have equiped, but it will all depend on how well tank crew sells as I doubt there will be more tanks etc if it dont sell enough.

[LachenKrieg]

My apologies for the previous post, as it should have been made under my account. I was using my son's computer and hadn't noticed I was logged into his IL2 account.

 

And yes, you are correct. That is a mid production Tiger in the image. It seems only logical to me that the final say regarding the use of a turret mounted MG would largely fall to the Commander. I have a lot more images that show the gun mount to the ring support without the gun, then I do with the MG actually mounted. It tells me that use of the turret MG was probably very selective, and for very specific situations. For example, the image I posted shows the MG mounted probably to provide cover while the crew made repairs in an open field. 

 

But back to the issue of collector vehicles. I really think it is the right way forward. I am hoping that the introduction of Tank Crew on Steam will add enough to the user base that it will warrant more collector vehicles. I remember when I bought into this franchise, a few here made it sound like the only map you can enjoy Tank Crew is on the Prokhorovka map because the graphics detail of the other maps is made to be seen from altitude. While I have no doubt this is true, I personally think this view point does a great disservice to the Tank Crew module. I have since bought the BOS map and now spend the majority of my time there. My only complaint would be that they clean the maps up so that you aren't running into invisible wall, or that trees aren't growing in the middle of the road. In terms of the actual graphics though, except for buildings, the graphic representation of the maps is perfectly fine for game play in a tank.

 

[Jadgtiger]

I'd really like to see the addition of the Elephant.  It most likely wouldn't be too much of a hassle to turn the Ferd to the Elephant.  We would have a cupula with MG34 then.

Edited December 29, 2020 by Jadgtiger