thunderbolt

[P40eWarhawk]

is the thunderbolt really as shit IRL as in the game? because if yes those poor pilots that had to fly these things... or is just because you are in simulation and not do proper teamtactics?

 

[DBFlyguy]

Poor flying and tactics (or lack there of) will make any aircraft appear bad. This was shot before the most recent FM updates:

 

 

 

 

Here's a good place to start with learning how to properly use the P-47:

 

Edited July 16, 2020 by DBFlyguy

[CountZero]

20 minutes ago, P40eWarhawk said:

is the thunderbolt really as shit IRL as in the game? because if yes those poor pilots that had to fly these things... or is just because you are in simulation and not do proper teamtactics?

 

If you go by the behavior of airplanes in game, then no way in hell germans lost the war, they have best build engines best guns best airplanes, and just look at american stuff LOL i belive what we learned in shools was all propaganda and ww2 was won by axis. Atleast its better then P-40 ?

[RedKestrel]

20 minutes ago, P40eWarhawk said:

is the thunderbolt really as shit IRL as in the game? because if yes those poor pilots that had to fly these things... or is just because you are in simulation and not do proper teamtactics?

 

If you try and fly the Thunderbolt as anything other than what it is - an extremely heavy fighter adapted to high altitude combat - you are going to get annihilated. If you get low and slow in combat, ever, you are pretty much screwed, since it takes too long for you to accelerate to combat speeds again or climb to regain energy.

Recent FM updates have lowered its roll rate a bit but the control response at medium-high speeds are pretty stellar - before it was hard to black out, now you can do it even with the G-suit. This gives you an advantage against 109s, not so much 190s. The stall is now much gentler and gives you lots of warning so you can handle low speed combat slightly better, but its still a terrible idea. They finally fixed the wonky flaps so you can no longer turn it into a magical spitfire by dropping flaps, which is a good thing IMO but some people relied on them to get out of trouble. 

Against contemporary 190s, with full boost you can keep up with them even on the deck and you can turn with them for a while.
 

Get high, use the dive, and don't get slow. If you can, take the 150 octane fuel, which turns it into a bit of a beast. 

[Rei-sen]

29 minutes ago, P40eWarhawk said:

is the thunderbolt really as shit IRL as in the game? because if yes those poor pilots that had to fly these things... or is just because you are in simulation and not do proper teamtactics?

 

I suggest trying P-47 elsewhere for a proper P-47 experience.

[CountZero]

32 minutes ago, DBFlyguy said:

Poor flying and tactics (or lack there of) will make any aircraft appear bad. This was shot before the most recent FM updates:

 

 

 

 

Here's a good place to start with learning how to properly use the P-47:

 

LOL video from 2018 when .50 cal were working, great to see how they did their job before they got "adjusted" 

[DBFlyguy]

19 minutes ago, CountZero said:

LOL video from 2018 when .50 cal were working, great to see how they did their job before they got "adjusted" 

 

How are .50 cal not working?

[MasterBaiter]

P-47 is a great airplane when used in group in multiplayer, but quite challenging if you are flying solo.

 

I think people tends to forget than back in the days allies had the air superiority and the P-47 was most of the time operating at very high altitude when doing fighter missions therefore with an energy advantage.

 

Btw from my experience using the .50 cal I dont see anything wrong.. Cant say the same with the .303/Bredas..

[DBFlyguy]

8 minutes ago, Winterz said:

 

 

Btw from my experience using the .50 cal I dont see anything wrong.. Cant say the same with the .303/Bredas..

 

Yeah, same here,  I have no issue what so ever knocking down aircraft with the .50 cals as they are, the .303s on the other hand... are freaking bb pellets unless you get SUPER close.  

[Birdman]

1 hour ago, P40eWarhawk said:

is the thunderbolt really as shit IRL as in the game? because if yes those poor pilots that had to fly these things... or is just because you are in simulation and not do proper teamtactics?

 

 

The situation in the sim is different than  IRL, especially in MP where numbers are even, German planes are manufactured to top standard and players are very experienced.

 

The 47 is a cool plane but your margin of error is very small unlike other late war fighters : if you mess up you pay for it quick.

 

That being said the razorback climbs decently and is fast. Hit and run is your best bet.

 

But it will never be easy.

[357th_KW]

Basically the late war 109s and 190s are modeled in their most optimistic form (which probably doesn't accurately reflect the condition they were in IRL), and the K4 and D9 are FAR too prevalent in game.  The G14 and A8 were the standard LW fighters of fall and winter 1944.  The air war in the west was essentially over after the air battles over the Ardennes and Bodenplatte - the LW sent most of their remaining fighters east in a desperate attempt to get some value from them in mid January 1945, leaving just 4 under-strength geschwadern of mostly K4s and D9s to hold down the entire western front.  Not to mention that the 8th & 15th AFs had completely destroyed the German fuel industry by this point - many LW units were grounded on any given day from lack of fuel, and the LW pilot training program had completely shut down.  The only source of replacement pilots was men returning from the hospital or from disbanding existing fighter units when they ran out of aircraft or were too low on pilots to continue functioning as independent units.  On top of that, the entire German rail network was heavily degraded and under constant attack, which was causing arms production to collapse.  Many Allied fighter pilots in 1945 never even saw a LW aircraft in the sky.

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

Isnt it Zemke that said once that it was a pretty bad idea to engage german fighters in a dogfight under 5000 meters if flying a thunderbolt?

 

If 8x P-47s engage 8x late war 109's at alt 3500 meters without anyone having any advantage at the beginning of the fight, well the germans WILL have the upper hand most of the time unless the p-47 pilots are significantly better. My only complain about the thunderbolt right now is that it catches on fire too easily. Oh and of course the AI is awful with it so AI P-47s are absolute sitting ducks if you fly a late war german bird. I shot down 11x P-47s in my Dora once without having a single p-47 at my 6 once. Not a single bullet fired at me. A total cakewalk.

[Legioneod]

P-47 struggle no doubt, some of it is because the way the game as a whole is modeled and some of it is just due to the nature of multiplayer.

I'd recommend staying high (above 15,000), the P-47 (150 fuel) can outrun nearly everything above 20k except for the 262. It's turn is also on par with 109s and 190s above 10,000ft but you should never try turning unless you have to.

 

Basically just stay high and fast and do hit and run attacks. While there are still some FM errors with the P-47 it's not a gamebreaker and you can do well if you try. P-47 just requires alot of patience.

[P40eWarhawk]

17 hours ago, CountZero said:

If you go by the behavior of airplanes in game, then no way in hell germans lost the war, they have best build engines best guns best airplanes, and just look at american stuff LOL i belive what we learned in shools was all propaganda and ww2 was won by axis. Atleast its better then P-40 ?

lol i actually like the p 40 in the game... i dunno why though..

14 hours ago, Legioneod said:

P-47 struggle no doubt, some of it is because the way the game as a whole is modeled and some of it is just due to the nature of multiplayer.

I'd recommend staying high (above 15,000), the P-47 (150 fuel) can outrun nearly everything above 20k except for the 262. It's turn is also on par with 109s and 190s above 10,000ft but you should never try turning unless you have to.

 

Basically just stay high and fast and do hit and run attacks. While there are still some FM errors with the P-47 it's not a gamebreaker and you can do well if you try. P-47 just requires alot of patience.

yeah i know that but with the turning... it just doesnt ?? i also take low fuel loads and sometimes even remove machineguns(but then why fly a thunderbolt if you cant do the 8 machinegun stream of doom)

16 hours ago, Birdman said:

 

The situation in the sim is different than  IRL, especially in MP where numbers are even, German planes are manufactured to top standard and players are very experienced.

 

The 47 is a cool plane but your margin of error is very small unlike other late war fighters : if you mess up you pay for it quick.

 

That being said the razorback climbs decently and is fast. Hit and run is your best bet.

 

But it will never be easy.

i havent yet met a plane i can even keep at distance (not flee from it) when climbing..

17 hours ago, Arthur-A said:

I suggest trying P-47 elsewhere for a proper P-47 experience.

i tried it in il2 shturmovik and in wings of prey and i loved it so much yeah it still doesnt turn but it had grunt in the engine and was a way better platform in these games and in warthunder they also seem to claim its op... it just handles like a tank.. worse then the strike aircraft

 

[Bremspropeller]

15 hours ago, KW_1979 said:

Basically the late war 109s and 190s are modeled in their most optimistic form (which probably doesn't accurately reflect the condition they were in IRL), and the K4 and D9 are FAR too prevalent in game.  The G14 and A8 were the standard LW fighters of fall and winter 1944.  The air war in the west was essentially over after the air battles over the Ardennes and Bodenplatte - the LW sent most of their remaining fighters east in a desperate attempt to get some value from them in mid January 1945, leaving just 4 under-strength geschwadern of mostly K4s and D9s to hold down the entire western front.  Not to mention that the 8th & 15th AFs had completely destroyed the German fuel industry by this point - many LW units were grounded on any given day from lack of fuel, and the LW pilot training program had completely shut down.  The only source of replacement pilots was men returning from the hospital or from disbanding existing fighter units when they ran out of aircraft or were too low on pilots to continue functioning as independent units.  On top of that, the entire German rail network was heavily degraded and under constant attack, which was causing arms production to collapse.  Many Allied fighter pilots in 1945 never even saw a LW aircraft in the sky.

 

At least the D-9 isn't modelled in the most optimistic form - in fact, it's pretty reasonable.

 

I'd disagree the air war was over, but the op-temp of the Luftwaffe certainly slowed down a lot.

JG 2 had an entire Gruppe basicly stepping down from operations after Bodenplatte, only re-gaining traction in Febuary '45.

But then again, they were shot to pieces above Buzz-Bomb-Alley on 1st January '45.

 

[Birdman]

41 minutes ago, P40eWarhawk said:

havent yet met a plane i can even keep at distance (not flee from it) when climbing.

 

Weird I'm able to stay away from the 190As at lower alts. 

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

Also with the p-47, make the most of the anti g suit, keep the fight fast paced and remember that you have this advantage over the german fighters. Also valid for the mustang ans lightning.

[P40eWarhawk]

39 minutes ago, Birdman said:

 

Weird I'm able to stay away from the 190As at lower alts. 

ant even stay away from bf 110s there... even with low fuelloads

9 minutes ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

Also with the p-47, make the most of the anti g suit, keep the fight fast paced and remember that you have this advantage over the german fighters. Also valid for the mustang ans lightning.

now thats something i did not know they have g suits?

 

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

2 minutes ago, P40eWarhawk said:

ant even stay away from bf 110s there... even with low fuelloads

now thats something i did not know they have g suits?

 

 

Yes, you will notice that you can withstand more G's in the P-38, P-47 and P-51 than in the late war 109s and 190s. It is modelled in the game.

 

This is something that you have to capitalize on if you can. 

[P40eWarhawk]

3 minutes ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

 

Yes, you will notice that you can withstand more G's in the P-38, P-47 and P-51 than in the late war 109s and 190s. It is modelled in the game.

 

This is something that you have to capitalize on if you can. 

thx very much thats actually quite cool i will try more high g maneuvres then... i tend to avoid them because the pilots go to sleep so fast and its burns energy like crazy but in this context i could be worth it

 

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

22 minutes ago, P40eWarhawk said:

thx very much thats actually quite cool i will try more high g maneuvres then... i tend to avoid them because the pilots go to sleep so fast and its burns energy like crazy but in this context i could be worth it

 

 

Yes and remember that the thunderbolt was never a great dogfighter and you have to maximize its strengths or you're in for a rough time, and this is 100% realistic! Do not fly it like it was a Spit or a Yak.

 

Also man, avoid having a 100% fuel load unless you absolutely need it, especially with the mustang. 

Edited July 17, 2020 by I./JG52_Woutwocampe

[357th_KW]

On 7/17/2020 at 6:02 AM, Bremspropeller said:

 

At least the D-9 isn't modelled in the most optimistic form - in fact, it's pretty reasonable.

 

I'd disagree the air war was over, but the op-temp of the Luftwaffe certainly slowed down a lot.

JG 2 had an entire Gruppe basicly stepping down from operations after Bodenplatte, only re-gaining traction in Febuary '45.

But then again, they were shot to pieces above Buzz-Bomb-Alley on 1st January '45.

 

My issue with the D-9 is that ours all have MW50 boost - fine for 1945 scenario, but many if not most D9s didn’t have that equipped up through Bodenplatte.  
 

By “over” I mean that the Luftwaffe was largely withdrawn from the western front, the units that remained were under strength, the level of combat was greatly reduced from the levels of November and December 1944, and the Luftwaffe had no prospect of influencing the wars outcome.  Pulling LW loss number from Werner Girbig’s “Six Months to Oblivion”, losses for November through Bodenplatte were about 1300 or more aircraft shot down and 1000 pilots lost.  The Luftwaffe put in one more large scale effort against an 8th Air Force raid on Jan 14th, costing another 130 pilots.  After this, JG1, 3, 4, 11 and 77 were all sent to the eastern front.  By comparison, April and May of 1945 saw about 200 Luftwaffe pilots lost in the west. 
 

My point in all of this is simply that the K4s and D9s that make up the typical LW forces in game whether in single or multiplayer don’t reflect the typical opponents seen by P-47 pilots over Europe in the second half of 1944 and 1945.  And so judging the P-47 based on what we see in game is taking things out of context.

[Bremspropeller]

14 minutes ago, KW_1979 said:

My issue with the D-9 is that ours all have MW50 boost - fine for 1945 scenario, but many if not most D9s didn’t have that equipped up through Bodenplatte.  

 

I'd have preferred a second Dora-version with just the 1900PS Sondernotleistung, too. Kind of like IL-2'46 had a Dora'44 and a Dora'45. Especially since there's some evidence the 1900PS birds weren't updated to the 2050PS MW50 system (like Dortenmann's Dora - he flew his 1900-horse Dora right through to the end). This is backed by the rear tank having a B4 triangle, rather than MW50 markings.

 

18 minutes ago, KW_1979 said:

By “over” I mean that the Luftwaffe was largely withdrawn from the western front, the units that remained were under strength, the level of combat was greatly reduced from the levels of November and December 1944, and the Luftwaffe had no prospect of influencing the wars outcome.  Pulling LW loss number from Werner Girbig’s “Six Months to Oblivion”, losses for November through Bodenplatte were about 1300 or more aircraft shot down and 1000 pilots lost.  The Luftwaffe put in one more large scale effort against an 8th Air Force raid on Jan 14th, costing another 130 pilots.  After this, JG1, 3, 4, 11 and 77 were all sent to the eastern front.  By comparison, April and May of 1945 saw about 200 Luftwaffe pilots lost in the west. 

 

November and December were pretty bloody months - it's not *just* Bodenplatte, that broke the Luftwaffe's neck.

Then there was the Soviets coming closer to the Reich, so lots of Gruppen were sent back east. In the end, mostly JGs 300 and 301 were flying Reichsverteidigung duties.

 

From the perspective of the Luftwaffe pilots in the west, the war was anything but over by then. They were flying (and dying) till the very last day.

Including complete madness like I. and II./JG 26 being sent to either Norway or down to the Prague area to escape the armistice on May 6th.

"First in Combat with the Dora 9" is a great book - if you don't have it, change that! It really deepens Girbig's large-scale view.

I'd love Eric Mombeek to finish his work on Jagdgeschwader 2 - those last few months must have been absolutely insane for them.

 

25 minutes ago, KW_1979 said:

My point in all of this is simply that the K4s and D9s that make up the typical LW forces in game whether in single or multiplayer don’t reflect the typical opponents seen by P-47 pilots over Europe in the second half of 1944 and 1945.  And so judging the P-47 based on what we see in game is taking things out of context.

 

I second that. I do like the current Jug, though - it has gotten a lot better now and with a low load of gas and a good pilot can be flown quite competitively.