Strafing with Hs129 and P51D impossible?

[jollyjack]

Just tried strafing again in a quick mission. Hs129 shooting T34s and Bm13s, and P51D shooting German tanks.

Game version 4.007c. it seems impossible, tried several times, hit targets in the belly, but no way ther get damaged ... opnions?

[Dutchvdm]

You can't destroy tanks with .50 machine guns. With the Hs-129 you should take the Mk-101 or 103 and try to hit the top or side part of the tanks (At least not the front). Just don't tickle their belly ;).

 

Grt M

[Bilbo_Baggins]

55 minutes ago, jollyjack said:

 and P51D shooting German tanks

 

 

Don't tell me you're trying to bounce the .50 rounds up under German tanks are you? That codswallop should have been debunked by now! 

[Yardstick]

Light tanks are easy with the Mk101 and Mk103.  Medium tanks are tougher but a 30 degree AOA attack from the rear aiming for the engine compartment is a reliable way of disabling them.  I find the KV-1 very tricky to knock out, occasionally I get lucky with a rear quarters attack as above but otherwise a well placed bomb is the only way I can get a kill in the HS-129.  However, the 40mm PAK when fitted to the Stuka will reliably knock out the engine but you only have ammo for at best 3 passes.  

[ITAF_Airone1989]

With the Mk cannon remember to use just blu bullets (Armour penetrating)

[Yogiflight]

49 minutes ago, Yardstick said:

However, the 40mm PAK when fitted to the Stuka will reliably knock out the engine but you only have ammo for at best 3 passes.  

37mm Flak

[Field-Ops]

 

 

[II./SG.1-MarkWilhelmsson]

I can kill T34s in one pass almost every time in the Hs129 with MK103. Side, front, back, it doesn't matter. As long as the angle is right and you hit in the right spot, they are dead. From the side, I aim for the front portion of the tank. If you kill the driver it counts as a kill. From the back, I aim for the grating on top of the engine bay; this is the easiest way because that grating is less than an inch thick. From the front, I aim right for the driver's window. I've been able to kill a T34 with a single shot from the MK103 right in the driver's window. It's a very small target though and hard to hit. 

 

My only complaint about the Hs129 is that it does not have the special 15mm AP ammo that was issued to it. The MG151/15 equipped planes like the BF109F2 got one type of AP ammo, but the Hs129 was given a special AP ammo that could penetrate 48mm of armour from 100m at 90 degrees. So theoretically, the Hs129 should be able to kill T34s with just the 15mm guns using AP but this is not modelled. I am planning on making a petition very soon to the devs to allow this enhanced AP projectile for the Hs129.

[jollyjack]

5 hours ago, I./ZG1_Dutchvdm said:

You can't destroy tanks with .50 machine guns. With the Hs-129 you should take the Mk-101 or 103 and try to hit the top or side part of the tanks (At least not the front). Just don't tickle their belly ;).

 

Grt M

 

Ah i did not use the 101 or 103.

Now how in places can you aim that precise when moving at 200 km/h beats me ..... I tried even at 1/2 speed game play. BTW bombing with a G14 is possible.

But guys, you give me hopes and i'll Quack them once more with 103s, later ..  Mark, i'll happily sign your petition !

 

PS there were about 12 T34s running around at 20km/h, vulnerability on, damage 50. I GOT ONLY ONE during  some 20 attacks tickling their fancies alright. !!

How's that?

 

Edited July 1, 2020 by jollyjack

[216th_Jordan]

15 minutes ago, jollyjack said:

 

Ah i did not use the 101 or 103.

Now how in places can you aim that precise when moving at 200 km/h beats me ..... I tried even at 1/2 speed game play. BTW bombing with a G14 is possible.

But guys, you give me hopes and i'll Quack them once more with 103s, later ..  Mark, i'll happily sign your petition !

 

You need to go fast for a stable attack, set up your attack run from sufficient alt and distance and steadily increase your aim. Takes some practice but is managable.

[Yardstick]

12 minutes ago, jollyjack said:

 

Now how in places can you aim that precise when moving at 200 km/h beats me ..... 

 

1:  Trim 

2:  Practice 

3:  Accurate controllers

 

Give JM's Hs-129 tank busting mission a go - best way to learn the techniques.  It is set up with infinite ammo and a target rich environment.  You can find his single mission pack 'stickied' on the relevant section of this forum.

[Hanu]

36 minutes ago, II./SG.1-MarkWilhelmsson said:

I can kill T34s in one pass almost every time in the Hs129 with MK103. Side, front, back, it doesn't matter. As long as the angle is right and you hit in the right spot, they are dead. From the side, I aim for the front portion of the tank. If you kill the driver it counts as a kill. From the back, I aim for the grating on top of the engine bay; this is the easiest way because that grating is less than an inch thick. From the front, I aim right for the driver's window. I've been able to kill a T34 with a single shot from the MK103 right in the driver's window. It's a very small target though and hard to hit.

 

From correct angle you can also shoot the periscope window and get a nice ricochet to crew if you calculate correctly. I dislike killing, so I usually just try to shoot their balls off... -Sure; they may continue the fight, but not their family-line.

[PatrickAWlson]

4 hours ago, jollyjack said:

 

Ah i did not use the 101 or 103.

Now how in places can you aim that precise when moving at 200 km/h beats me ..... I tried even at 1/2 speed game play. BTW bombing with a G14 is possible.

But guys, you give me hopes and i'll Quack them once more with 103s, later ..  Mark, i'll happily sign your petition !

 

PS there were about 12 T34s running around at 20km/h, vulnerability on, damage 50. I GOT ONLY ONE during  some 20 attacks tickling their fancies alright. !!

How's that?

 

 

One better than I have ever managed  

[Jade_Monkey]

Oh god, don't tell me they nerfed the P51 again ?

[Field-Ops]

8 hours ago, II./SG.1-MarkWilhelmsson said:

My only complaint about the Hs129 is that it does not have the special 15mm AP ammo that was issued to it. The MG151/15 equipped planes like the BF109F2 got one type of AP ammo, but the Hs129 was given a special AP ammo that could penetrate 48mm of armour from 100m at 90 degrees. So theoretically, the Hs129 should be able to kill T34s with just the 15mm guns using AP but this is not modelled. I am planning on making a petition very soon to the devs to allow this enhanced AP projectile for the Hs129.

When you bring your petition forward be sure to bring documentation. They dont listen, and rightfully so, to hearsay. 

[Jaws2002]

12 hours ago, jollyjack said:

PS there were about 12 T34s running around at 20km/h, vulnerability on, damage 50. I GOT ONLY ONE during  some 20 attacks tickling their fancies alright. !!

How's that?

 

   You got to start somewhere. One tank kill in a sortie is more than most real world pilots got. 

 One more tip to help with the shooting accuracy. Setup the big gun you use to attack tanks on a separate trigger, so you only shoot that one. It helps clear the sight picture and allows you to quickly adjust your shooting, based on the previous impact location. if you shoot all the guns, you can't see the target very good during shooting.

Also make sure you select the AP ammo, not the High Explosive.

[jollyjack]

@Jaws2002, shootin' with one gun only, i must try that, and i'll check the AP amno settings. .....

and i'll loadup JMs mission next time.

 

But generally the T34s are setup vulnerable enough. I let this Duck lay some SC50 eggs on their heads.
Good aiming practice with a moving tank, but it su' blows them out of the water.

 

PS i get more and more respect for the devs building all this trickery in a piece of software.

 

Edited July 2, 2020 by jollyjack

[Jaws2002]

In the duck i don't know if you can setup your guns to only shoot the big cannon, but in the Yak-9T it works like a charm.

 

Edited July 2, 2020 by Jaws2002

[WheelwrightPL]

Jaws2002: are those screenshots from the Prohorovka map ?

Did you try this new shiny Yak cannon against some Prohorovka buildings ? They have enhanced destructibility so I am curious about the results.

[Jaws2002]

I don't remember what map it was. i didn't shoot at buildings with the Yak yet. Just at tanks, trucks, half tracks, ships, trains and aircraft.

[II./SG.1-MarkWilhelmsson]

9 hours ago, Field-Ops said:

When you bring your petition forward be sure to bring documentation. They dont listen, and rightfully so, to hearsay. 

 

Won't be an issue. I've been compiling the data. Also have pilot accounts where they talk about retreating from front line airfields in a hurry and stashing this special AP ammunition in their cargo and radio holds so that they wouldn't have to leave any behind.

[Pict]

23 hours ago, Bilbo_Baggins said:

 

Don't tell me you're trying to bounce the .50 rounds up under German tanks are you? That codswallop should have been debunked by now! 

 

It has been debunked, time & time again and then some, but like a discarded fishing net the odd cod swims wallop right into whats left of it 

[jollyjack]

@Jaws2002: I loaded the Yak9t, instead of the Hs129, with heaviest AP cannon stuff. 20 minutes strafing not one hit, with the Hs129 1 kill, 3 damaged. Guess i must practice more.

 

With the Hs129 you can at least bomb the rest, out of sheer frustration that is. (I used JM's Tank Bombing practice mission).

 

@Pict: i pity that po' ole cod. These days even humpbacks get caught that way unwillingly.

 

ADDED Well, all in all i have now tested strafing with a lot of planes, He129, Yak9T, IL2 43. In Jades Ground attack mission, quick missions.

I really have the impression that it's far more difficult than before.

F.I i hit a Tank with a rocket full in the flank, explosion and all. Tank drives on.

Also I hit several tanks with the bomblets from an Il2; nothing happens. Before (3.00x? ) it was always prize and a lot far easier. 

 

I give up, hoping there will be some adjustments made to the damage modelling done to targets with the next update. . An easy - difficulty switch?

----------------------------------------------

ADDED 2 Just tried the Yak9T with AP and HE amno ... it's the same

Edited July 7, 2020 by jollyjack

[1./JG42Nephris]

Well a lot of guys are either long sim veterans or at least Il:GB expierienced.

Practice means routine after time, which leads to success.

 

Dont expect it to learn within days. This is a process that may lasts much longer than a few days.

 

Keep on practicing, no different way to earn success.Turning down difficulties is like fooling yourself imho.

 

 

 

[FeuerFliegen]

On 7/1/2020 at 4:20 AM, I./ZG1_Dutchvdm said:

You can't destroy tanks with .50 machine guns. With the Hs-129 you should take the Mk-101 or 103 and try to hit the top or side part of the tanks (At least not the front). Just don't tickle their belly ;).

 

Grt M

 

I've destroyed medium German tanks with a P40.  It was a few months ago though, incase things have changed.

[jollyjack]

Hurray, after 20 minutes rocket shooting with a i16 i stopped a tank! They must have called the AA by now.

 

Edited July 3, 2020 by jollyjack

[216th_Jordan]

On 7/2/2020 at 4:17 PM, jollyjack said:

@Jaws2002: I loaded the Yak9t, instead of the Hs129, with heaviest AP cannon stuff. 20 minutes strafing not one hit, with the Hs129 1 kill, 3 damaged. Guess i must practice more.

 

With the Hs129 you can at least bomb the rest, out of sheer frustration that is. (I used JM's Tank Bombing practice mission.

 

@Pict: i pity that po' ole cod. These days even humpbacks get caught that way unwillingly.

 

ADDED Well, all in all i have now tested strafing with a lot of planes, He129, Yak9T, IL2 43. In Jades Ground attack mission, quick missions.

I really have the impression that it's far more difficult than before.

F.I i hit a Tank with a rocket full in the flank, explosion and all. Tank drives on.

Also I hit several tanks with the bomblets from an Il2; nothing happens. Before (3.00x? ) it was always prize and the lot far easier. 

 

I give up, hoping there will be some adjustments made to the damage modelling done to targets with the next update. . An easy - difficulty switch?

 

Try the big rockets on the Il-2, they work wonders.

[Diggun]

I find the 51 an absolute dream to strafe in. 400m convergence, set 437ft on the sight and you're away. Extra ammo gives you plenty of loiter time over target. 2x51s should be able to clear most online targets of aaa in a single sortie. It does seem strange to me though that in the ETO the western allies don't seem to have felt the need for a seriously up-gunned, heavy cannon carrying tank buster. Given that the British especially seemed to love designing cripplingly over specialised units (sometimes even for single missions) this seems odd. Was the thinking that they could just bomb individual tanks? Or leave it to Rocket-phoons? Or were the conditions so different to the vast open spaces in Russia that tank busting was more left to artillery or ground units? 

 

I know Spielberg has an especial weakness for a Ray Hanna '51 low pass, but even at the time I was confused by the ending of Saving Private Ryan. Like, just how did that 51 take out that Tiger again? 

[jollyjack]

P51D- You're right as for flying. But killing tanks, couldn't get one, only with bombs ...

[RedKestrel]

4 hours ago, Diggun said:

I find the 51 an absolute dream to strafe in. 400m convergence, set 437ft on the sight and you're away. Extra ammo gives you plenty of loiter time over target. 2x51s should be able to clear most online targets of aaa in a single sortie. It does seem strange to me though that in the ETO the western allies don't seem to have felt the need for a seriously up-gunned, heavy cannon carrying tank buster. Given that the British especially seemed to love designing cripplingly over specialised units (sometimes even for single missions) this seems odd. Was the thinking that they could just bomb individual tanks? Or leave it to Rocket-phoons? Or were the conditions so different to the vast open spaces in Russia that tank busting was more left to artillery or ground units? 

 

I know Spielberg has an especial weakness for a Ray Hanna '51 low pass, but even at the time I was confused by the ending of Saving Private Ryan. Like, just how did that 51 take out that Tiger again? 

They did use the Hurricanes with 40mm cannons in the North Africa campaign so it was a mission-type they clearly  considered. But maybe that's the point- they had tried the role of dedicated tank-killer and just found it not worth it for the investment.

But they had a crap ton of artillery, including AT artillery, and in comparison to the eastern front and even the north african campaigns German tanks were a bit thinner on the ground. So it could be they felt a more general-purpose approach to air support had more utility. Or they really believed in the rocket and bomb attacks effectiveness. 

[TAIPAN_]

3 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

They did use the Hurricanes with 40mm cannons in the North Africa campaign so it was a mission-type they clearly  considered. But maybe that's the point- they had tried the role of dedicated tank-killer and just found it not worth it for the investment.

But they had a crap ton of artillery, including AT artillery, and in comparison to the eastern front and even the north african campaigns German tanks were a bit thinner on the ground. So it could be they felt a more general-purpose approach to air support had more utility. Or they really believed in the rocket and bomb attacks effectiveness. 

 

I think late war on the western front there was a bigger focus on cutting/destroying supply which resulting in many tanks just running out of fuel. Supply being either softer vehicles or bridges/buildings where you need bombs.

[jollyjack]

Now i understand why you cannot destroy tanks easily in Il2 anymore !

I saw the light ... the devs are blackmailing the oil industry in hopes they'd invest in IL2. Only then we'll be able to shoot tanks again. I'll opt even with an airgun ...

[Diggun]

11 hours ago, Dan_Taipan said:

think late war on the western front there was a bigger focus on cutting/destroying supply

All very well, but that doesn't do much to reassure the PBI when they're suddenly confronted by a Panther in that village they are just clearing. 

 

'It's OK chaps, we've got em by the supply lines!' is not histories most reassuring battle cry! ?

[TAIPAN_]

1 hour ago, Diggun said:

All very well, but that doesn't do much to reassure the PBI when they're suddenly confronted by a Panther in that village they are just clearing. 

 

'It's OK chaps, we've got em by the supply lines!' is not histories most reassuring battle cry! ?

 

Yeah they'd feel much better if the A-10 warthog was around back then

 

How was the close air support in terms of tactical bombing of German armor? Don't need an anti-tank cannon for that..

[flagdjmetcher]

On 7/4/2020 at 6:27 AM, RedKestrel said:

They did use the Hurricanes with 40mm cannons in the North Africa campaign so it was a mission-type they clearly  considered. But maybe that's the point- they had tried the role of dedicated tank-killer and just found it not worth it for the investment.

But they had a crap ton of artillery, including AT artillery, and in comparison to the eastern front and even the north african campaigns German tanks were a bit thinner on the ground. So it could be they felt a more general-purpose approach to air support had more utility. Or they really believed in the rocket and bomb attacks effectiveness. 

 

Looking at the IL-2's record, they made the right call.  The German tank crews seemed not too worried by the IL-2's; they could be relied upon to miss, and their own losses were horrific.  Meanwhile in the West, the German mobile forces were all but paralyzed by the comms campaign and jabos with plain old bombs.  By the time that Panther got to terrorizing the PBI in the village - well, it probably was just one Panther, most of its supply train was lying shot up in a ditch, and whether your rocket/bomb CAS can knock it out directly isn't really the point.  What they can do is knock out the supporting arms that are preventing you from outflanking it.

 

This is completely unlike the CAS doctrine from the Korean War onwards, where the idea is to offset a numerical disadvantage with the ability to very rapidly switch firepower from point to point.  Hence firebases and gunships, and eventually A-10s.

 

 

[Diggun]

To sum up, in Allied ETO ww2 doctrine, you don't need to knock out the tank from the air, but if you can make sure there are no reinforcements coming, and you can bomb the treeline where the tanks and infantry are hiding to all hell and back, the infantry confronting the survivors should have a (comparatively) easy time. 

 

I'm really grateful for the discussion we've had here. One of those moments where you're glad to be in this community because the passionate and interested people around here can clear up long standing confusion!