Question on P-47 engine controls

[dburne]

From the tech specs:

Quote

 

- The turbocharger is powered by the engine exhaust back pressure which can be set by a lever in the cockpit and maintained automatically using the throttle shutters on the exhaust pipes.

- The air compressed in the turbocharger goes to the intercooler where it is cooled by the incoming airflow. The cool compressed air goes to the carburetor and the resulting fuel-air mixture goes to the supercharger. - The temperature of the air after the intercooler is indicated by a separate gauge. The pilot can control the intercooler flaps using the toggle switch and observe their position using the indicator on the left. Their default position is neutral (50%). - The turbocharger RPM is controlled by the lever in the cockpit ("T" and "+"/"-" keys by default). At the back lever position the throttle shutters are fully open and exhaust gases all go to the atmosphere, resulting in minimal turbocharger RPM. At the forward lever position, the exhaust back pressure and the resulting turbocharger RPM are at maximum. It should be noted that the RPM will change with the altitude even if the lever is kept in the same position. The turbocharger RPM is indicated by a dedicated gauge; in addition, the signal lamp will light up if the maximum RPM limit is exceeded. - The total engine power should be controlled using the joint method when the three levers - RPM lever, throttle lever and turbocharger lever are moved together. However, in certain cases (for instance, when going higher than the critical altitude) the turbocharger lever should be adjusted separately. - It should be noted that turbocharger RPM changes relatively slowly and not immediately after the control lever adjustment.
 

 

 

So does this mean I only need to assign the three functions of RPM, throttle, and turbocharger to the same lever for the P-47?

Just need a little assistance in understanding before I start flying this one some. Or should I assign seperately to keep everything clean as we do not

have separate controller setups for each plane?

Edited June 23, 2020 by dburne

[41Sqn_Skipper]

Ideally you have separate 3 axis for: 

- engine RPM

- throttle

- turbocharger RPM

 

While you can link them all together, it will not give you ideal performance. 

[RedKestrel]

16 minutes ago, dburne said:

From the tech specs:

 

So does this mean I only need to assign the three functions of RPM, throttle, and turbocharger to the same lever for the P-47?

Just need a little assistance in understanding before I start flying this one some. Or should I assign seperately to keep everything clean as we do not

have separate controller setups for each plane?

I have throttle bound to my CH throttle, and mixture, RPM, and Turbocharger each set to a lever on my saitek throttle quadrant. I individually manage the throttle, RPM, and turbo.

That said, you can link throttle and Turbo for 99.9% of flying you are likely to do in-sim and have very little, if any., loss of performance. Max performance in almost all flight regimes is full throttle, full RPM, and full turbo, and boost. In some conditions apparently having slightly reduced RPM can squeeze some extra performance out of it but that's it. Adjusting the turbo can give you a bit of extra performance in some cases but its not a lot to be honest.

If you don't want to worry about the turbocharger too much and don't have the extra axis or buttons, I would just link throttle and turbo on the ground, and manage throttle/turbo as one lever and RPM as one lever, so its similar to any other plane's engine management. The only time you don't want to do that is at very high altitude where the turbo may overspeed. So just assign turbo to keys and adjust it in the rare case its necessary. 

The way the P-47 RPM linkage works is that when you push it forward, it goes with the throttle and turbo, but when you pull it back the RPM stays in place to prevent the pilot from pulling back RPM before throttle and turbo. So I just keep RPM un-linked and control it on its own, rather than readjusting and relinking it every time I go from combat to cruise.

[dburne]

Ok thanks much guys!

 

So I guess I could have rpm on the slider on Warthog throttle, as that is how it is set now.

Throttle the same, set to the right hand throttle control.

I could put turbocharger on my left hand throttle of Warthog. 

Do I really need to assign a mixture control as it seems it is automatic? Right now though I have mixture on left hand throttle for other planes.

I supposed I could hook up my Saitek throttle quadrant to give me more axis and assign turbo to it and leave mixture on that left side throttle. Or maybe assign to buttons?

Edited June 23, 2020 by dburne

[RedKestrel]

1 hour ago, dburne said:

Ok thanks much guys!

 

So I guess I could have rpm on the slider on Warthog throttle, as that is how it is set now.

Throttle the same, set to the right hand throttle control.

I could put turbocharger on my left hand throttle of Warthog. 

Do I really need to assign a mixture control as it seems it is automatic? Right now though I have mixture on left hand throttle for other planes.

I supposed I could hook up my Saitek throttle quadrant to give me more axis and assign turbo to it and leave mixture on that left side throttle. Or maybe assign to buttons?

Mixture is only automatic in the sense that if you set it to full rich, auto rich, and auto lean. You can just set it at auto rich and forget about it if you want, but It's not fully automatic like some other planes.

[dburne]

20 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

Mixture is only automatic in the sense that if you set it to full rich, auto rich, and auto lean. You can just set it at auto rich and forget about it if you want, but It's not fully automatic like some other planes.

 

Ok thanks much, guess I will hook my Saitek Quadrant back up to have extra axis for turbo charger.

Probably would make it simpler as we do not have individual plane control assignments.

 

Thanks,

Edited June 23, 2020 by dburne

[ShamrockOneFive]

6 hours ago, dburne said:

 

Ok thanks much, guess I will hook my Saitek Quadrant back up to have extra axis for turbo charger.

Probably would make it simpler as we do not have individual plane control assignments.

 

Thanks,

 

We don't have individual plane control assignments but you can double bind carefully. I have manual prop control in the Hs129B-2 set to the same toggle switch on my T-50 throttle as my turbocharger control for the P-47.

[Jaegermeister]

10 hours ago, dburne said:

So I guess I could have rpm on the slider on Warthog throttle, as that is how it is set now.

Throttle the same, set to the right hand throttle control.

I could put turbocharger on my left hand throttle of Warthog. 

Do I really need to assign a mixture control as it seems it is automatic? Right now though I have mixture on left hand throttle for other planes.

I supposed I could hook up my Saitek throttle quadrant to give me more axis and assign turbo to it and leave mixture on that left side throttle. Or maybe assign to buttons?

 

I also have a warthog. My controls are mapped for VR, so I operate them blind.

 

I set fuel mixture on the throttle quadrant slider. It’s in the same place as the in cockpit mixture lever. I would have to take my hand off the throttle to change it so that’s out for RPM.

I use the dual throttle both mapped to throttles / manifold pressure so I don’t have to change it for dual engine AC like the P38

I have the top thumb toggle switch mapped to rpm so I can adjust it while moving the throttle.

I have the second thumb toggle switch mapped to turbo.

The 2 back left switches on the throttle quadrant are mapped to interconnect the turbo and rpm to throttle, because they are disconnected by default at startup. I have these switches double mapped as Shamrock mentioned, to select left and right engines on the P38 to feather props.

 

The only time you would want the turbo not linked to the throttle is during takeoff. According to the P47 manual, you do not engage the turbo below 7,000 feet altitude, so no turbo during takeoff. It does not matter in game.

 

If you link the turbo before takeoff, you do not need a manual control. I use the same key binding for supercharger speed, so it does not take up an extra switch for me because you don’t have both on the same AC. I usually link it as part of pre flight procedure.

 

So my procedure is link throttle to propellor pitch and turbo at startup. Leave it that way and reduce rpm manually when necessary with the top 3 way thumb switch. Separate button for WEP at full power, 5 minute limit, 15 minute limit at reduced combat power setting. That’s it, just 3 engine controls during flight.

 

actually, there is also the engine cowl shutters and the intercooler shutters, but those are on the 3 way toggle switches under the throttle and I don’t mess with them much. The cowl shutters usually stay at about 1/4 open unless it gets hot in a dogfight or cold up high.

 

 

Edited June 24, 2020 by Jaegermeister

[RedKestrel]

1 hour ago, Jaegermeister said:

 

I also have a warthog. My controls are mapped for VR, so I operate them blind.

 

I set fuel mixture on the throttle quadrant slider. It’s in the same place as the in cockpit mixture lever. I would have to take my hand off the throttle to change it so that’s out for RPM.

I use the dual throttle both mapped to throttles / manifold pressure so I don’t have to change it for dual engine AC like the P38

I have the top thumb toggle switch mapped to rpm so I can adjust it while moving the throttle.

I have the second thumb toggle switch mapped to turbo.

The 2 back left switches on the throttle quadrant are mapped to interconnect the turbo and rpm to throttle, because they are disconnected by default at startup. I have these switches double mapped as Shamrock mentioned, to select left and right engines on the P38 to feather props.

 

The only time you would want the turbo not linked to the throttle is during takeoff. According to the P47 manual, you do not engage the turbo below 7,000 feet altitude, so no turbo during takeoff. It does not matter in game.

 

If you link the turbo before takeoff, you do not need a manual control. I use the same key binding for supercharger speed, so it does not take up an extra switch for me because you don’t have both on the same AC. I usually link it as part of pre flight procedure.

 

So my procedure is link throttle to propellor pitch and turbo at startup. Leave it that way and reduce rpm manually when necessary with the top 3 way thumb switch. Separate button for WEP at full power, 5 minute limit, 15 minute limit at reduced combat power setting. That’s it, just 3 engine controls during flight.

 

actually, there is also the engine cowl shutters and the intercooler shutters, but those are on the 3 way toggle switches under the throttle and I don’t mess with them much. The cowl shutters usually stay at about 1/4 open unless it gets hot in a dogfight or cold up high.

 

 

I think The cowl shutters should be closed at all times above 200 mph and unless you are flying very slow at combat power or above you can leave them closed completely all the time in my experience.

 

oil cooler and inter cooler shutters can usually be put in neutral (50 percent) for the whole flight. Technically you should close the intercooler shutters before a dive but there is no in game penalty for not doing so. Oil cooler you can open if your oil temps go crazy, or close if they get too cold, but 99% of the time I set it to neutral and leave it.

 

honestly despite the complexity I find the Jug is very easy to keep cool.

[dburne]

Awesome tips, much thanks guys !!

[Hartigan]

As not mentioned clearly there is a special key commands to link turbo and prop with throttle...just in case ?

[dburne]

18 minutes ago, Hartigan said:

As not mentioned clearly there is a special key commands to link turbo and prop with throttle...just in case ?

 

Thanks for the tip.

[Jaegermeister]

1 hour ago, Hartigan said:

As not mentioned clearly there is a special key commands to link turbo and prop with throttle...just in case ?

 

Yes, there are different keys for prop pitch and turbo, although you could put them on 1. I might do that and see how it goes next time I’m in the Jug.

[dburne]

12 hours ago, Jaegermeister said:

 

Yes, there are different keys for prop pitch and turbo, although you could put them on 1. I might do that and see how it goes next time I’m in the Jug.

 

Now I will get really confused LOL.

.

Have been learning the P-51 in the meantime after having spent so very much time in the Spit, first with the Mk V and then the Mk IX.

After about a dozen PWCG missions I feel I and the P-51 are finally becoming one. Becoming pretty fond of that plane, and love all the ammo for the 50 cals.

Next up will the be P-47 here very shortly. Already got another PWCG Campaign set up for it. Got to expand my horizons. 

Edited June 25, 2020 by dburne

[MattS]

10 hours ago, dburne said:

 

Next up will the be P-47 here very shortly. 

 

 

Interested to hear what you think of the Jug after flying the P-51...might be hard to go backward ?

[dburne]

2 minutes ago, MattS said:

 

Interested to hear what you think of the Jug after flying the P-51...might be hard to go backward ?

 

Yeah I hear ya, P-51 just about everything is automated and going back to having to do more manually will likely be a little rough.

Hope to get started with it probably Saturday.

[Jaegermeister]

Once you link the turbo, it’s about the same as the P51. The WEP on the P47 does help a good bit in combat though, so don’t forget about it. Not to mention the magic flaps assist in turns.

[Sgt_Joch]

Actually the P-47 is very easy to manage.

 

You can link throttle, turbo and RPM and handle everything with just one lever. The only time you really need to unlink the turbo is at very high altitude which you will seldom go to in game. Cooling flaps can be left on neutral all the time, except in very cold or very hot weather which rarely occurs in game. You can micromanage everything and eke out a bit more performance, but it is not worth the trouble IMHO.

 

Once everything is setup and linked, the only setting you have to watch is manifold pressure.

Edited June 25, 2020 by Sgt_Joch

[LukeFF]

On 6/24/2020 at 4:56 AM, Jaegermeister said:

 

Yes, there are different keys for prop pitch and turbo, although you could put them on 1. I might do that and see how it goes next time I’m in the Jug.

 

Yes, with the P-47N, the engine controls were reworked - the turbo lever was removed, and the turbo was consequently controlled with the movement of the throttle, since it was found that high turbo RPM would not, in fact, lead to engine damage. So yeah, it is just best to link the turbo to the throttle and be done with it.

On 6/23/2020 at 5:59 PM, ShamrockOneFive said:

We don't have individual plane control assignments but you can double bind carefully. I have manual prop control in the Hs129B-2 set to the same toggle switch on my T-50 throttle as my turbocharger control for the P-47.

 

Yes, I have manual prop pitch control, the jet engine igniters, and the turob & prop rpm linkage controls all mapped to the same rocker switch on my throttle. It works out great that way.

Edited June 25, 2020 by LukeFF

[=621=Samikatz]

Does having the turbo running at low altitude have any negative effect? I remember hearing from another person that below a certain altitude the turbo uses more power than it produces

[Jaegermeister]

Just now, =621=Samikatz said:

Does having the turbo running at low altitude have any negative effect? I remember hearing from another person that below a certain altitude the turbo uses more power than it produces

 

It says so in the manual, but in game, it doesn't do anything that I am aware of.

Edited June 25, 2020 by Jaegermeister

[dburne]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

 

Yes, with the P-47N, the engine controls were reworked - the turbo lever was removed, and the turbo was consequently controlled with the movement of the throttle, since it was found that high turbo RPM would not, in fact, lead to engine damage. So yeah, it is just best to link the turbo to the throttle and be done with it.

 

 

Sounds reasonable. Dumb question on my part, so if I link the Turbo to the Throttle in controller settings, is that going to affect any other planes?

[MattS]

28 minutes ago, dburne said:

 

Sounds reasonable. Dumb question on my part, so if I link the Turbo to the Throttle in controller settings, is that going to affect any other planes?

 

Wow that is pretty brilliant. I can't imagine any problems since no other planes even use turbo controls (yet).

[dburne]

1 hour ago, MattS said:

 

Wow that is pretty brilliant. I can't imagine any problems since no other planes even use turbo controls (yet).

 

Ok thanks, I will give that a go.

[dburne]

Ok think I have everything set up now to suit my taste, will be testing in a new PWCG Campaign shortly.

Will see how long it takes me to tame this one now lol. I will be linking turbo with the throttle for now, have left rpm control seperate.

Edited June 27, 2020 by dburne

[dburne]

Well I probably should have taken a check ride first, but threw caution to the wind and flew my first mission in cold start taxi to runway PWCG campaign for the P-47.

Whew took over 15 minutes just to taxi to runway. Larger airfield in Bodenplatte of course.

Take off went well. Loaded with a couple 500 lb bombs, it was an enemy troop attack.

Got to the target area and unfortunately it was empty, so dropped the bombs and headed home. Even though the wingmen stated there were dropping bombs I saw none of that.

Did not run across any enemy AI aircraft, probably  a good thing for my first mission.

 

Now for some reason, I seemed to be a lot slower than the wingmen. I was flying all out I thought but was only going around 250 mph. It was low altitude, and reading the tech sheet on this aircraft I should have been a lot faster so not sure what I am missing here.

 

Cockpit on this plane is gorgeous in VR,

 

 

[=X51=VC_]

Just be aware that linking RPM to throttle will only move RPM up but not down. So you need to bring the RPM back down manually when you throttle back, or accidentally stay in "combat" mode too long and blow the engine.

[dburne]

Well I will say my P-47 experience may be short lived,  I don't think I could keep up with a donkey with this thing much less an enemy aircraft.

I must be missing something really big here, as I am slower than crap no matter what I do.

53 minutes ago, =X51=VC_ said:

Just be aware that linking RPM to throttle will only move RPM up but not down. So you need to bring the RPM back down manually when you throttle back, or accidentally stay in "combat" mode too long and blow the engine.

 

I did not link RPM to throttle, only turbo.

[=X51=VC_]

2 minutes ago, dburne said:

Well I will say my P-47 experience may be short lived,  I don't think I could keep up with a donkey with this thing much less an enemy aircraft.

I must be missing something really big here, as I am slower than crap no matter what I do.

 

 

Sheriff can get it to 580km/h on the deck with a lot of optimising, but even that is not so impressive. It is slow, as a fighter it was designed to operate at very high altitude so its performance is not competitive with anything else at the altitudes we typically fly and fight at, especially in MP.

[mattebubben]

29 minutes ago, =X51=VC_ said:

 

 

Sheriff can get it to 580km/h on the deck with a lot of optimising, but even that is not so impressive. It is slow, as a fighter it was designed to operate at very high altitude so its performance is not competitive with anything else at the altitudes we typically fly and fight at, especially in MP.

 

Well 580km/h is still competetive with most of the German fighters of the time. (its also faster then the P-38 and comparable with the Spit using 150 octane)

Its comparable to the G14 and FW-190A8.

And better then older German fighters like the G6,A5 etc. (Or those we will get in Battle of Normandy)

Only the K4 and D9 are clearly superior.

 

And with the addition of 150 octane in the next patch it will be even faster on the deck (so at that point it will be faster then the A8 and G14 on the deck).

 

and the D-22 will be even faster...

So a D-22 with 150 octane might even be close to the Tempest with +9 boost ,K4/DB and P-51D/100oct

(With the Tempest with 11+ boost ,K4 with the DC engine,P-51 with 150oct and D9 still being faster)

etc while significantly faster then the  Spitfire,P-38,A-8 and G-14 etc

 

So i would not say that its slow...

Its not the fastest at low altitude but its certainly not slow...

Edited June 27, 2020 by mattebubben

[dburne]

23 minutes ago, mattebubben said:

 

Well 580km/h is still competetive with most of the German fighters of the time. (its also faster then the P-38 and comparable with the Spit using 150 octane)

Its comparable to the G14 and FW-190A8.

And better then older German fighters like the G6,A5 etc. (Or those we will get in Battle of Normandy)

Only the K4 and D9 are clearly superior.

 

And with the addition of 150 octane in the next patch it will be even faster on the deck (so at that point it will be faster then the A8 and G14 on the deck).

 

and the D-22 will be even faster...

So a D-22 with 150 octane might even be comparable to the Tempest ,K4 and P-51(using 100 octane),

etc while significantly faster then the  Spitfire,P-38,A-8 and G-14 etc

 

So i would not say that its slow...

Its not the fastest at low altitude but its certainly not slow...

 

Yeah but for some reason I think I am slower than I should be, and not really sure why.

I will keep at it a little longer and see if I can figure it out.

[ShamrockOneFive]

36 minutes ago, dburne said:

Well I will say my P-47 experience may be short lived,  I don't think I could keep up with a donkey with this thing much less an enemy aircraft.

I must be missing something really big here, as I am slower than crap no matter what I do.

 

I did not link RPM to throttle, only turbo.

 

There's a lot of controls to worry about on the P-47.

 

What was your RPM? Did you reduce it slightly as you get close to your top speed? What radiator controls were open or closed? Did you use engine boost for the high speed dash? How much fuel did you have onboard? I've flown a ton of P-47 recently and while it never feels fast, it is actually relatively fast but if really needs everything to be setup and tuned properly for the situation.

1 minute ago, dburne said:

 

Yeah but for some reason I think I am slower than I should be, and not really sure why.

I will keep at it a little longer and see if I can figure it out.

 

Record some tracks and post them. Maybe we can see things that are going on that you haven't thought of yet. It's one way to try and get some help get up to speed, literally, with the P-47.

[mattebubben]

12 minutes ago, dburne said:

 

Yeah but for some reason I think I am slower than I should be, and not really sure why.

I will keep at it a little longer and see if I can figure it out.

For max speed use Water injection (Boost) + 100% throttle for 64 inches of MP and 2550 RPM (88%)

And for max acceleration or climb go 100% RPM.

keep Oil and Inlet at Neutral (50%) for most of the time with Cowl flaps closed.

 

And if you want more time in wep you can go down to around 55-56 inches of MP which gives you closer to 10 minutes instead of 5 at 64 inches

(a little more at 2550 RPM)

though at the cost of lower speed obviously (I generally only use max power for when i really need it and otherwise stay between 56 with boost or 52 without boost)

 

And then as soon as you are no longer in combat go back to continous power (42 inches MP and 2550rpm)

to start regenerating combat/boost time.

 

Also remember that you dont really need full fuel.

the P-47 has so much fuel that you rarely need more then 50-55% for most MP missions and the change in weight helps.

 

and lastly at what altitudes do you feel slow?

All altitudes?

Edited June 27, 2020 by mattebubben

[Talon_]

55 minutes ago, mattebubben said:

So a D-22 with 150 octane might even be close to the Tempest with +9 boost ,K4/DB and P-51D/100oct

 

 

Guess again!

 

[dburne]

27 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

There's a lot of controls to worry about on the P-47.

 

What was your RPM? Did you reduce it slightly as you get close to your top speed? What radiator controls were open or closed? Did you use engine boost for the high speed dash? How much fuel did you have onboard? I've flown a ton of P-47 recently and while it never feels fast, it is actually relatively fast but if really needs everything to be setup and tuned properly for the situation.

 

Record some tracks and post them. Maybe we can see things that are going on that you haven't thought of yet. It's one way to try and get some help get up to speed, literally, with the P-47.

 

Engine boost? Are you talking about the Turbo or is that something else? Will have to check into radiators/cowls.

I was under impression Turbo, RPM, and Throttle were main things to be concerned with... ugh.

Edited June 27, 2020 by dburne

[Raven109]

4 minutes ago, dburne said:

 

Engine boost? Are you talking about the Turbo or is that something else? Will have to check into radiators/cowls.

I was under impression Turbo, RPM, and Throttle were main things to be concerned with... ugh.

 

Are you using water injection? How high does your boost gauge go when at full turbo/throttle/RPM? With Water injection it should go to 64"Hg.

[ShamrockOneFive]

4 minutes ago, dburne said:

 

Engine boost? Are you talking about the Turbo or is that something else? Will have to check into radiators/cowls.

I was under impression Turbo, RPM, and Throttle were main things to be concerned with... ugh.

 

Three basic things:

- Throttle

- RPM

- Turbo

 

Then you have:

- Cowl flaps

- Intercooler flaps

- Oil radiator

 

And finally the P-47 has water injection activated by the boost control switch. Turn that on to get extra power. If you're not doing that you aren't going to get maximum speed.

[=X51=VC_]

51 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

What was your RPM? Did you reduce it slightly as you get close to your top speed?

 

This bugs me a little. I know it works in game, but I don't understand why it should from a real life standpoint. What physics is at play here? Or is this just a quirk of the game modelling?

[dburne]

Meh, think I have had enough. Going back to the P-51 and Spit Mk IX.

Don't care for this one at all.

 

Thanks though all for trying to help, I really appreciate it!

Edited June 27, 2020 by dburne

[mattebubben]

1 hour ago, Talon_ said:

 

Guess again!

 

 

?

Considering our current P-47D-28 can do 570-580 on the deck with 100 octane fuel. (If you reduce the RPM slightly)

150 Octane will increase that.

And the D-22 will be faster then the D-28.

Logically This should bring it closer to the 600 of the P-51.

 

And what is the source for that graph?

and what does HOK JUG even mean?

Edited June 27, 2020 by mattebubben