How do you stick with the squadron on realistic?

[Bobitron]

I'm okay with following the squadron, but I have no idea how to regroup after breaking off. Realistically I would expect the squadron to tell me what sector they are in over radio, but AI can't do that. So for now I'm using the minimap, but it's a little cheaty to know where my opponents are. Any suggestions?

[spitfirejoe]

I have the same problem with my AI squadron. I fly more scripted campaigns now ( love it ), but the AI says often on radio " rejoin formation " after an attack or fight and when I don´t see them I mostly fly back to base alone. Yesterday I had a funny situation doing Mission no. 3 of "Lightning Strikes". My engine no.1 was hit badly and I had trouble, I heard on the radio "rejoin formation", I did not see the others, so I decided to try to make it home alone to base with my beaten up engine. The leader must have been flown home alone before already but when I was tracking home myself, 2 other beaten up squad mates followed me homewards with smoking P-38´s, even I did not see where they suddenly came from. I was flying home with less power, not too fast to save engine life and they followed me slowly, not overtaking. Half way back my engine blew up anyway so I had to practice single engine flight with the Lightning which was fun anyway, because I did make it without any problem. 

[Yogiflight]

2 hours ago, spitfirejoe said:

. I fly more scripted campaigns now ( love it ), but the AI says often on radio " rejoin formation " after an attack or fight

Would be nice to have this in the career mode and PWCG, too, to tell you fighting is over. I often have the problem, I am fighting an enemy together with squadmates, and after I shot the enemy down, I look around, first to see if another enemy fighter is near and wants to attack me, then to look for my comrades. But they are already gone, as AI knows, when an enemy is done, and if there is another enemy around.

Similar situation with ground attacks, you are still destroying ground targets, but your flight is already on its way back to base, as the game told them, that enough targets are destroyed (usually only AA guns, anyway), so they did their duty and can fly back, however there still are plenty of targets to destroy.

The ability to have the minimap only showing friendly aircrafts would be a welcome workaround for the missing of the possibilty to ask your flightleader on the radio for his position or a vector to him.

[blitze]

Yes, unless you stick to your wingman like glue - it is nigh on impossible to workout where your flight is after a fight.

 

A radio call from the flight leader to regroup at Way Point - X (which ever is the nearest next waypoint) would be really helpful.  Failing that, maybe squad mates on the map marked within 20kms should do it, sort of like when patrolling ground targets and you have that indication circle showing air assets only without showing the enemy planes in this case.

 

Prefer the radio call but something to help us regroup would be great.

[Yogiflight]

32 minutes ago, blitze said:

Yes, unless you stick to your wingman like glue - it is nigh on impossible to workout where your flight is after a fight.

 

A radio call from the flight leader to regroup at Way Point - X (which ever is the nearest next waypoint) would be really helpful.  Failing that, maybe squad mates on the map marked within 20kms should do it, sort of like when patrolling ground targets and you have that indication circle showing air assets only without showing the enemy planes in this case.

 

Prefer the radio call but something to help us regroup would be great.

Two things I would like to add.

I noticed several times, when I was with my flight after an airfight, that my flight was returning to the last waypoint, instead of flying to the next one. I don't know, if there is some practical reason, but like you mentioned, flying to the next waypoint would definitely make more sense.

Second, I have seen a behaviour of the AI of my flight to wait circling somewhere for missing squadmates, maybe they do it for the player, too, but as I am usually flying in PWCG, where your mission altitude is not pretty much always 2K, but more between 4- 6K, it might be, that I just did not see my flight waiting for me, because I didn't know in which altitude they were circling.

[MarderIV]

Found a source mentioning this issue in real life, it's under points 34 to 36. It explains that should pilots lose their lead element, they were expected to join and follow other friendly flights. In the event this is not possible, they are to join at a rally point.

 

In-game I pretty much do the latter, plotting an intercept to the next waypoint either expecting the flight to be thereabouts so I can join, or continue the patrol on my own following the same flight-plan barring lack of workable fuel load or ammunition. 

 

I haven't seen any other source stating radio call-outs to be the norm and letting the whole flight slow down to reorient, regroup, and pick up stragglers (I don't know if this is even expedient given time strict on target schedules or if it's even appropriate to announce waypoints over radio), so there's probably other operating procedures out there. 

 

 

[41Sqn_Skipper]

[FTC_crane]

OP, I know that it's a bit off topic, but if you are looking for a realistic experiance where whole squadrons fly missions against other squadrons, check out ACG. No AI commanding involved.

[Vortice]

Usually after any kind of engagement the AI will revert back to the original flight plan so as long as you know where the waypoints are and at what height they are supposed to be flying it's not too difficult to find them again.

 

In my current Rhineland career I am now squadron leader, so it's their task to find me and it's not my problem any more.

[SharpeXB]

The realistic thing to do, if you aren’t the commander, is make it a priority to stick with your wingman and squadron and cover them. Not go running off after getting kills. Although that’s hard to resist. Sometimes the AI isn’t very smart and if you want to stay alive.. don’t follow them. 

[PatrickAWlson]

In real life combat "suddenly empty skies" was a thing.  It could happen quite easily.  I don't think radios really did much if you were out of visual range.  I have not heard of situations where extraordinary efforts were made to regroup.  Pilots in these cases usually went home. 

 

The real solution would require some non trivial AI changes.  We would need wingman and leader AI logic and then the ability to designate one plane as leader and another one or more (three man formation) linked to him as wingman.  In these cases you would really have somebody on your wing protecting you.

 

Random thought: I wonder what would happen if you had this situation using existing capabilities:

4 planes take off in formation. 

At some point you give #2 a command to cover #1 and #4 a command to cover #3, like an escort.  #3 stays linked to #1 in formation.

No idea what the results would be and it would not work for spawned planes, but it's a thought.

 

[spitfirejoe]

6 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The realistic thing to do, if you aren’t the commander, is make it a priority to stick with your wingman and squadron and cover them. Not go running off after getting kills. Although that’s hard to resist. Sometimes the AI isn’t very smart and if you want to stay alive.. don’t follow them. 

In a real combat world that makes totally sense and I would not like to fly around alone by myself in enemy teritory. But here with the sometimes strange behaving AI it is a different thing and sometimes it is better to do your own thing.

Edited June 19, 2020 by spitfirejoe

[Gambit21]

In the Jug campaign I recently finished (coming soon)  I always have the squadron form up (after Lead calls “Elwood we’re done, form up” or similar) west of the target area. Lead also orbits for a bit to allow time to form up. You have a decent chance of flying home in formation that way if you’re paying attention.

 

 

[grcurmudgeon]

There are some simple queries I wish you could make over the radio:

• Where are you?
• Target on your six!

The first would help with this issue. The second would prevent your flight from continuing to fly straight for home while you are trying to disrupt the enemy flight that is settling in to shoot them down.

 

[Jaegermeister]

Getting the radio system updated is high on my wish list, but seems to be a major undertaking. I think any changes at all will require a major overhaul.

 

I do know that currently the AI formation leader will psychically tell the other planes in your flight where he is and they will join up as well as possible to head home after the mission objective is complete. The leader will circle back to find you if you stray too far behind, but you will probably have to chase him in a big Lufberry Circle for about 5 or 6 revolutions before you get him to realize you are there and he sets course for home again. This usually happens about half way back to home base on long missions.

 

The most direct way to do it is just to head straight home if you find yourself alone, and everyone usually arrives about the same time. 

 

In real life, if someone found themselves in an empty sky, they set course for home and looked over their shoulder a lot. 

[dburne]

Yes I would so love to see a radio overhaul.

[flagdjmetcher]

16 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

Would be nice to have this in the career mode and PWCG, too, to tell you fighting is over. I often have the problem, I am fighting an enemy together with squadmates, and after I shot the enemy down, I look around, first to see if another enemy fighter is near and wants to attack me, then to look for my comrades. But they are already gone, as AI knows, when an enemy is done, and if there is another enemy around.

 

I think this does happen in career mode for escort missions.  You get a rejoin call when the attackers/bombers come off the target, and then another when they reach their home field.  Fighter-only missions (or when you are the attacker or bomber, with or without escorts) - nothing.

 

The one I find most frustrating is the endless chatter about engaging the enemy "3km north west".  North west of where?  I've had missions where I basically flew around in an empty sky listening to a most thrilling radio drama of air-to-air combat with no way to join in.  Later on looking at the event log, I find that my flight has been all over the map, quite happy to squawk about it endlessly on R/T but seemingly allergic to anything like a map or landmark reference.

Most frustrating of all is when the chap squawking about engaging the enemy is me.  I know the whole icons on/off thing is a vexed subject, and on the whole I prefer off, but you'd think if "I" can "see" a plane, "I" could tell myself exactly where it is.

[Yogiflight]

8 hours ago, flagdjmetcher said:

I think this does happen in career mode for escort missions.  You get a rejoin call when the attackers/bombers come off the target, and then another when they reach their home field.  Fighter-only missions (or when you are the attacker or bomber, with or without escorts) - nothing.

Yes, this is absolutely weird, that you hear this when escorting but not when fighting/attacking yourself

 

8 hours ago, flagdjmetcher said:

The one I find most frustrating is the endless chatter about engaging the enemy "3km north west".  North west of where?  I've had missions where I basically flew around in an empty sky listening to a most thrilling radio drama of air-to-air combat with no way to join in.  Later on looking at the event log, I find that my flight has been all over the map,

I see this especially in PWCG, that my squadmates got shot down by AA defense of an airfield 50km in enemy territory, because they followed a single enemy aircraft to its base, and yes I was often enough flying around, looking for my squadmates fighting with enemy aircrafts

 

8 hours ago, flagdjmetcher said:

but seemingly allergic to anything like a map or landmark reference.

But TBH, this would be quite hard to implement, as you had to program every single landmark as radio callout. It would be a big task to do.

 

8 hours ago, flagdjmetcher said:

Most frustrating of all is when the chap squawking about engaging the enemy is me.

I had some missions in which this happened for more than 15 minutes, while I was following my flight. It is absolutely annoying, when my virtual pilot tells me what I am, in his opinion, just doing. I usually know what I am doing and it rarely is, what my virtual pilot is telling me.

And even more, I hate these gamish arcade stuff, where the game tells me, watch out, there is an enemy near you. If so, I either will see him, or if not and he kills me, it was my own fault, and I'll take it as such. Players, who want the game to tell them, there is an enemy near them (which is OK, everybody may play a game, the way he likes to), will play with icons on, anyway.

[blitze]

8 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

I had some missions in which this happened for more than 15 minutes, while I was following my flight. It is absolutely annoying, when my virtual pilot tells me what I am, in his opinion, just doing. I usually know what I am doing and it rarely is, what my virtual pilot is telling me.

And even more, I hate these gamish arcade stuff, where the game tells me, watch out, there is an enemy near you. If so, I either will see him, or if not and he kills me, it was my own fault, and I'll take it as such. Players, who want the game to tell them, there is an enemy near them (which is OK, everybody may play a game, the way he likes to), will play with icons on, anyway.

That is a feature of this sim - to aid in threat awareness.

 

Unfortunately they don't all use the Clock system for direction but instead compass bearings which in some planes - useless.  Aside from that - I think it is a good system to help aid in awareness and threat spotting - given the nature of deficiencies in simulating the experience to real life - or we can just fly and if your head isn't on a swivel with eagle eyes - expect to be bounced often. ?

[flagdjmetcher]

15 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

But TBH, this would be quite hard to implement, as you had to program every single landmark as radio callout. It would be a big task to do.

 

 

A map grid should be achievable and not too unrealistic.  I wouldn't expect a colleague in a whirling dogfight to be calling out map references, but when the whole flight has taken off somewhere one of them should be able to call out a rally point.  And late war in the west, from what I understand, it was the norm to be vectored straight onto an ongoing fight by a radar-equipped ground controller. 

 

6 hours ago, blitze said:

That is a feature of this sim - to aid in threat awareness.

 

Unfortunately they don't all use the Clock system for direction but instead compass bearings which in some planes - useless.  Aside from that - I think it is a good system to help aid in awareness and threat spotting - given the nature of deficiencies in simulating the experience to real life - or we can just fly and if your head isn't on a swivel with eagle eyes - expect to be bounced often. ?

 

The interesting thing is that it's not consistent.  Which I don't mind at all, seems realistic.  I've certainly been bounced by AI that flew right up to my six without a peep from my in-game pilot, and (contrary to all the complaining about omniscient AI) I've returned the favour.  I even managed to join an AI formation without arousing suspicion.  The annoying part is when my in-game pilot is calling out threats from 10km all the way down to 1km and I don't at any stage manage to see them, but that's mostly frustration at my own bad spotting.

 

The other side of this is that I've learned that the best way to find the enemy is to follow my flight leader.  They see contacts waaaay before I do.  Which is also realistic (given I'm a new pilot),  but it does mean I essentially don't scan for threats at all anymore.

 

Last mission reinforced this for me.  I was in a flight of four heading home from an escort mission.  My in-game pilot was calling out enemy fighters 10km to our six.   Then six km, then five.  Nobody in my flight reacted.  Finally I couldn't stand it and did a 180 and went looking.  My flight kept on straigth ahead.  In-game pilot keeps calling out, all the way down to 1km.  I see nothing.   I turn around again and head for home.  Just as I get to home plate, I hear my fight calling out "engaging the enemy".  How on earth I got home before them I'll never know.  I do another 180, backtrack, scanning high and low, nothing.  Back and forth a couple of times, enjoying the radio drama.  Finally I give up and land, and in the post mission event log I see that my flight had engaged the enemy just one grid to the west.  If I'd looked in the right direction at the right height and at the right time, I would have seen them.  So pretty much at every step in that whole process, the outcome was bad.  Not really the game's fault, but at every stage I can think of a more useful game behaviour than what actually happened.

So after that I've resolved to just ignore my virtual pilot, not bother trying to spot, and just follow my flight leader.   Which is pretty much what rookie pilots were told to do, so - quite immersive I guess.

[blitze]

Yesterday I was flying No.4 in a bomber escort mission over the Kuban.  The radio callouts helped but it was hard to vis them on the settings I was flying till the 109's were within 2km.  I did though with the help of call outs down a few and save the backsides of a few fellow AI Yak drivers (see a fight going on and it was mostly a 109 on the tail of a Yak) as well as some A20's of which I had decided to check up on their return base even though my flight had been told job complete and go home.

 

Luckily I did as the landing A20's were being harassed by a lone 109 so I went after this lone wolf AI pilot and downed him.  That was the only 109 I actually saw to their complete destruction, the earlier ones I just got smoking or fluid leaking and left them alone.

 

I did manage to regroup with my bomber flight with that mission after my early intercepts by heading back along the return waypoint heading but bombers are easier to spot and luckily I did as they were being harassed then too.

 

It was a good mission.?

[Yogiflight]

8 hours ago, flagdjmetcher said:

So after that I've resolved to just ignore my virtual pilot

That is what I am doing, too. It is an unrealistic help, I don't want, so I try to ignore it, which sometimws isn't too easy.

8 hours ago, flagdjmetcher said:

If I'd looked in the right direction at the right height and at the right time, I would have seen them. 

 

8 hours ago, flagdjmetcher said:

Not really the game's fault,

It is a bit of the game's fault. Yesterday I was flying a mission in PWCG as no.8, following no.7 after takeoff, who lost a bit of contact to the flight and after the first turn I was not able to see my flight anymore, however they couldn't have been further away than 5km and I knew where they should be. The weather was fine, good lighting, so absolutely no reason to lose them out of sight. They popped in again after the next turn at the next waypoint

Since last update spotting got remarkably worse, after it got definitely better after the update before. From what I experience, we currently have the worst spotting in this game, ever, which I hope will be resolved.

[Bobitron]

It will probably be a while before they implement a convincing radio system, so for now I would prefer if there was an option to use minimap for allies only like many games.