FM of damaged tail section?

[FTC_Zero]

(Disclaimer: I am not bashing on this title but want to discuss the current state. e.g.: 'It is a game' or 'they improve it all the time' are not valid points for me.)

Most common damage I experience is damage to my  tail unit, for obvious reasons. e.g.: I would expect constant up/down lifts etc (like trim tabs but more) depending on your speed with the lack of uplift or because of added drag, but what i always experience instead is constantly wobbles up and down, as if somebody took my tail and actively and randomly and suddenly pull it up and down.

As I said, I would expect loss of elevator/rudder priority/ responsiveness and constant up/down lifts and stronger pulls to the left or right depending on engine tendencies. Instead it feels like a random  number generator attached to the rudder/elevator controls constantly changing. I know that wind is a factor here, but this? What do you think or know?

[SAS_Storebror]

Totally agree.

While probably none of us ever sat in a shot up plane, the current representation of damage effects on the flight model simply feels... odd.

Can't remember having seen or witnessed anything remotely similar in any other flight simulator either.

Now this could mean that all others are wrong and our devs are the only ones who are right, but it doesn't necessarily have to be that case.

 

Mike

[41Sqn_Skipper]

1 hour ago, ZeroCrack01 said:

but what i always experience instead is constantly wobbles up and down, as if somebody took my tail and actively and randomly and suddenly pull it up and down.
 

 

That's the moment where I usually bail, because it feels like my whole tail was suddenly cut off. ?

 

 

[FTC_Zero]

49 minutes ago, 41Sqn_Skipper said:

 

That's the moment where I usually bail, because it feels like my whole tail was suddenly cut off. ?

 

 

Ha, and I waste so much time to get home tearing my stick like crazy back an forward. In that case I should not complain when my joystick doesn't function anymore. ?

1 hour ago, SAS_Storebror said:

Totally agree.

While probably none of us ever sat in a shot up plane, the current representation of damage effects on the flight model simply feels... odd.

Can't remember having seen or witnessed anything remotely similar in any other flight simulator either.

Now this could mean that all others are wrong and our devs are the only ones who are right, but it doesn't necessarily have to be that case.

 

Mike

Yeah, I hope no one feels offended by that. I mean a simulation is always quite correct, but it needs input and a model and depending on that (computing time?). Lack of a complex enough model maybe? Because as I said it feels artificially done. Of course everything is artificially done but I hope you know what I mean. ?

Edited June 18, 2020 by ZeroCrack01

[Yogiflight]

Holes in your stabilizers and rudder/elevator will cause a loss of stability, first because there is less surface to stabilize your aircraft, second because and even more, the holes cause air turbulences. So a loss of stability is definitely correct. TBH there should be more of it with several holes in the wings, plus holes in the outer wing should not cause that much loss of lift for this wing, as the wing generates most of the lift closer to the fuselage, but cause a lot of yaw to this side.

But of course, there also has to be a loss of rudder/elevator effectivity with holes in it, but in my experience this is modelled in the game.

[Irishratticus72]

Relatively unrelated, but I shot a port aileron off of an IL2 last night, and the bitch took my whole propeller off, I mean I know I was close, but that close? 

[MarderIV]

I'd have expected more side to side movement if my rudder had been lost. The TSB incident report for Air Transat Flight 961 shows this kind of behavior upon rudder loss and skin damage to elevators.   I don't see it frequently in Il-2. 

 

Though I still think its fair to point out just how difficult it is to model the aerodynamic effects of damage to control surfaces. We likely could approximate things better, but the chances of some things getting scoped out of whatever model is being used is still significant.

[216th_Jordan]

48 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

Holes in your stabilizers and rudder/elevator will cause a loss of stability, first because there is less surface to stabilize your aircraft, second because and even more, the holes cause air turbulences.

 

That is true but the effect is nothing like one would expect, instead of large instability, a force to one side (depending on conditions) or oscillations (periodic) what we get is a somewhat random movement up and down (or left and right) that is not an oscillation but a sudden movement in one direction, followed by the movement stopping, remaining in the new state and suddenly moving back in the same way after some seconds or moving even further in the first direction. Like a jump function mixed with a random numbers generator.

 

As far as I recall a member of the dev team ecen acknowledged the shortcoming, but that there would be no time at the moment to improve it.

[Yardstick]

Agree - I just does not feel right. 

 

Curious thing is that it is more pronounced when trying to fly straight and level.  I find it much less of an issue in combat or oddly when landing - just makes the long flight back to base a pain with the constant control inputs that are needed. 

[FTC_Zero]

31 minutes ago, 216th_Jordan said:

 

That is true but the effect is nothing like one would expect, instead of large instability, a force to one side (depending on conditions) or oscillations (periodic) what we get is a somewhat random movement up and down (or left and right) that is not an oscillation but a sudden movement in one direction, followed by the movement stopping, remaining in the new state and suddenly moving back in the same way after some seconds or moving even further in the first direction. Like a jump function mixed with a random numbers generator.

 

As far as I recall a member of the dev team ecen acknowledged the shortcoming, but that there would be no time at the moment to improve it.

I totally agree about that. Like a sinus generator with random amplitude, but periodically. Same goes for strong wind. Movements are very sudden and turns the aircraft in his own axis, not pushing away the whole plane from its intended flight path. 

 

That's how I feel trying to control my plane when tail sections is heavily damaged or partially shot off: 


Of course not exact science and all assumptions. ?

[Lusekofte]

This must be the hardest thing advocating for. They have to make a fm based on stories from the war. 
And we cannot prove our point of view. 
I really can not see any reason sometimes when I get all the controls intact and there is only a few holes in the tail it should act 

like it does. But I have not found a way to bring that forward

[BlitzPig_EL]

It's very difficult to determine what is damaged, and the extent of that damage.  We are constantly reminded that the damage we see externally really doesn't correlate to actual damage taken.  Last weekend we were attacking shipping in the Kerch Strait (thanks Vander) with A20s.  All three of us took flak damage to the empenage.  It was hilarious watching us fly home, the three A20s bobbing up and down like rocking horses, like they were attached to a ball joint located in the center of the fuselage, with the feeling of weightlessness, just like the bad old days of "the wobble".

[AEthelraedUnraed]

4 hours ago, ZeroCrack01 said:

'It is a game' or 'they improve it all the time' are not valid points for me.

Well, since it in fact is a game and they do improve it all the time, it doesn't really matter if these points are valid for you or not. There are tons of other things the Devs are working on, and as someone rightly stated, no-one here has ever flown a shot-up plane in real life. The behaviour may indeed be unrealistic or it may not, but even if it is I can frankly see more pressing issues the team are working on. If that is not enough for you and you really want this specific issue to be treated with top priority, I suggest you buy out 1CGS and you can tell them exactly what they need to spend their time on. Until that time though, it doesn't matter whether or not you find these points valid.

 

I certainly don't mean this post to sound rude and I'm sorry if it does, but that's just the reality of things. If someone comes in and says, without providing any evidence, that certain current behaviour is wrong and then makes remarks towards the only acceptable solution being that the behaviour is changed and it's changed now, I don't give it a great chance of going anywhere.

[=FEW=fernando11]

Well. To be honest OP was worded in a way that I understand he is ASKING what we thought, and he gives his own opinion... I dont see any demands or atack to the game in general.

 

And in that matter, altough I agree it is not top priority, and the Developers DO improuve on the game at a considerable pace, I too "feel" the oscilation/wobble a bit peculiar. Do I have any solid evidence of how it should be?

No

It's just a feeling. And as said before, far from gamebreaking

Edited June 18, 2020 by =FEW=fernando11

[AEthelraedUnraed]

It might indeed be that I misunderstood the OP and he just wants to come to a well-formed opinion about whether the current behaviour is realistic or not. In which case everyone can disregard my previous post.

 

Although I'm not an aeronautics engineer, my personal idea is that it's plausible, depending on the damage. As Yogiflight rightly pointed out, damage might cause turbulence around your elevators. And if there's anything certain about turbulence, it's that it can under some circumstances be very unpredictable. That's why a stall can be so sudden in some aircraft (e.g. FW190). I think this particular behaviour could possibly be explained as turbulence "stalling" your elevator causing a sudden movement to one side that a pilot cannot respond quickly enough to to prevent. I also don't think there would necessarily be any periodic movement. Naturally, it all highly depends on the nature of the damage.

 

Of course, someone with more knowledge about aeronautics might disagree

Edited June 18, 2020 by AEthelraedUnraed

[FTC_Zero]

1 hour ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

Well, since it in fact is a game and they do improve it all the time, it doesn't really matter if these points are valid for you or not. There are tons of other things the Devs are working on, and as someone rightly stated, no-one here has ever flown a shot-up plane in real life. The behaviour may indeed be unrealistic or it may not, but even if it is I can frankly see more pressing issues the team are working on. If that is not enough for you and you really want this specific issue to be treated with top priority, I suggest you buy out 1CGS and you can tell them exactly what they need to spend their time on. Until that time though, it doesn't matter whether or not you find these points valid.

 

I certainly don't mean this post to sound rude and I'm sorry if it does, but that's just the reality of things. If someone comes in and says, without providing any evidence, that certain current behaviour is wrong and then makes remarks towards the only acceptable solution being that the behaviour is changed and it's changed now, I don't give it a great chance of going anywhere

Just chill. I did the disclaimer for that exact fandom behaviour. It did not work

[FTC_Zero]

2 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

It's very difficult to determine what is damaged, and the extent of that damage.  We are constantly reminded that the damage we see externally really doesn't correlate to actual damage taken.  Last weekend we were attacking shipping in the Kerch Strait (thanks Vander) with A20s.  All three of us took flak damage to the empenage.  It was hilarious watching us fly home, the three A20s bobbing up and down like rocking horses, like they were attached to a ball joint located in the center of the fuselage, with the feeling of weightlessness, just like the bad old days of "the wobble".

We really need recordings of those things ? same for me when I flew out the bf110 and the flak shot away half of my horizontal stabilizer. I wished I could show you that to give my point more weight.

 

And indeed I hope all are aware that the visual damage model is very limited. I still do not think that it could be the reason of this jumpy wobble behaviour.  

Edited June 18, 2020 by ZeroCrack01

[AEthelraedUnraed]

Just now, ZeroCrack01 said:

Just chill. I did the disclaimer for that exact fandom behaviour. It did not work

I stand by what I said - if you are looking for reasons why an aircraft might behave as it does in IL2, and are trying to find out whether that behaviour is even realistic or not, then I've misread your post and I'll gladly help you with that. If so, disregard my first post and please don't feel offended.

 

If, as your "'It is a game' or 'they improve it all the time' are not valid points for me" line suggests to me (again, I may be mistaken), you're basically just asking the Dev's to change the sim to your liking without providing any good reasons and without allowing a fair discussion with room for other arguments, then you may call me a fanboi if you want, but it still won't make it more likely that the Devs will change this behaviour.

 

I do hope it's the former and I misunderstood your intentions all along.

[FTC_Zero]

2 hours ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

I stand by what I said - if you are looking for reasons why an aircraft might behave as it does in IL2, and are trying to find out whether that behaviour is even realistic or not, then I've misread your post and I'll gladly help you with that. If so, disregard my first post and please don't feel offended.

 

If, as your "'It is a game' or 'they improve it all the time' are not valid points for me" line suggests to me (again, I may be mistaken), you're basically just asking the Dev's to change the sim to your liking without providing any good reasons and without allowing a fair discussion with room for other arguments, then you may call me a fanboi if you want, but it still won't make it more likely that the Devs will change this behaviour.

 

I do hope it's the former and I misunderstood your intentions all along.

Stand by what you said. I do not understand why you picture me like i am pointing a pistol on someones head.
Please no more off topic stuff like that.

Edited June 18, 2020 by ZeroCrack01

[I./JG52_Woutwocampe]

Yup, noticed that too. Right now, damage to the tail section is way more critical than in the wings. I especially noticed it when my right rudder in a 110 was damaged. Just one hole, but a pretty decent one. The plane was wobbling left and right like crazy, and quite randomly. If you compare it to holes in the right wing for instance, you will feel it, you'll have to compensate, but its continuous, much more manageable.