Why we need better implementation of VR zoom

[Cpt_Siddy]

The issue with VR is not about the zoom aiding spotting, is the pixels available for resolving an object to identify it. 

 

 

 

Top picture is a 109, middle picture is 109 rendered on screen at the distance of ~1km and bottom picture is same but rendered on VR headset.

 

In picture above you can see a 109 with same angular size but less pixel/angle available for resolving. Fore example, in your 4k monitor, you might have (example numbers) 100 pixels when resolving targets that are angular size of 1 degree. While for exactly same object at same distance, the average VR headset might have 20 and high end 40 pixels to resolve the object. 

This is because the VR head sets use relatively same amount of pixels as screens, to populate far far wider FoV than screens do. When screen might have 40 horizontal by 30 vertical degree of FoV and have 2,2 million pixels in the area, VR headset can have roughly 110 horizontal by 90 vertical degree of FoV with less than 2m pixels to populate them (because optics cull off some of the edge area). This causes VR zoom and screen zoom to have different needs. A proper screen zoom is there to bring the screen to true FoV, ie, the zoom actually makes objects to be real size in relation to the view port (ie screen). VR zoom needs to take in to account the limitations of modern HMD pixel density. HMD's, after the migoto nuke, suffer from difficulties identifying planes as near as 500m, not spotting them afar. It has nothing to do with VR users wanting to spot planes easier, we want to identify planes at reasonable distances. The way the current LoD works, this only got harder. 

 

If you want fair play between the Screens and VR headsets in the identification realm, VR must have comparable pixel availability to ID planes at comparable distances, not an order of magnitude lower. 

Edited June 11, 2020 by Cpt_Siddy

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

This is because the VR head sets use relatively same amount of pixels as screens, to populate far far wider FoV than screens do.

Wasn’t the VR zoom improved to go beyond the same FOV as a monitor? Prior to that improvement the VR zoom was the same 30d FOV which wasn’t considered adequate. At some point the zoom view arms race needs to halt before every player just gets 100x magnification. It’s hard to ID stuff on a 4K screen too sometimes but that’s life. 
An HP Reverb has 4320 x 2160 total resolution which is greater than the average 1080x1920 monitor so how is VR zoom inadequate for that HMD?

[Cpt_Siddy]

28 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Wasn’t the VR zoom improved to go beyond the same FOV as a monitor? Prior to that improvement the VR zoom was the same 30d FOV which wasn’t considered adequate. At some point the zoom view arms race needs to halt before every player just gets 100x magnification. It’s hard to ID stuff on a 4K screen too sometimes but that’s life. 
An HP Reverb has 4320 x 2160 total resolution which is greater than the average 1080x1920 monitor so how is VR zoom inadequate for that HMD?

 

This current zoom does not provide enough pixels to get positive ID on most planes in situations where i got no problem ID planes on screen. 

 

Remember, that you need about +-18 million pixels to have same pixel density as 1080p screen with even moderate first gen HMD's FoV. 

The difference in pixel density goes up in with the square of the FoV. This is the reason why the density/degree of FoV available to most moderate middle of the road HMD's are order of magnitude lower than what screen users get when they ID the target.  The migoto's 7x was adequate for parity spotting with most screens. The current zoom is still a little bit lacking. But there could be other solutions to this problem, too. Like some sort of LoD compensation for VR users when they press zoom, so the pixel fill works better but you wont need a hawk zoom as you can code in the range the LoD "enlargement" would take place at and even make it gradual.  The point is, none of this seems to be even considered or discussed properly.  

 

People who dont understand HMD tech dont realize what HMD is rendering on its screen. If you project the same picture HMD sees on normal screen, it would look like fish eye world. This is then modified by the optics to create an illusion for the end user to see a moderately wide Field of View. This means that the amount of pixels for that FoV is astonishingly small even on the most highest end of HMD's 

Edited June 12, 2020 by Cpt_Siddy

[SharpeXB]

If players keep asking for higher and higher zoom levels where does this end?

[=GW=a7610783]

25 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

如果玩家不斷要求越來越高的縮放級別，這將在哪裡結束？

Why do we need a higher level of lock release? What we need is clearly recognizable picture, requirements and monitor the players the same, this is not too much, our request is stand on the same starting point.

Also, since you have the VR device, and that you put to flight IL2 trip, you can be keenly aware of the difficulties and dilemmas we VR pilots, instead of theories to try to monitor the comments VR

[Cpt_Siddy]

37 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

If players keep asking for higher and higher zoom levels where does this end?

 

I think i just wrote that there is other, more discreet and range depended workaround in my last post. 

 

LoD manipulation to augment the basic zoom is first thing that come to mind, but i am sure there is other ways to enhance the current HMD experience. 

 

But in general, i miss my migoto 7x zoom, i did not need more than that to feel secure in identifying planes at ranges that i can identify them in real life, too. 

No one ever use zoom to spot targets, you do your spotting zoomed out, looking for motion and pixel that don't belong. 

[Drum]

Maybe the method of zoom needs changing.  For instance, if you increase a small thumbnail picture that was taken with a low res camera the picture blurs as it gets bigger, which is the same method the game uses to zoom now.  Instead, they should just increase the size of the image for the zoom level selected by re-rendering it at the screen's present resolution.  End of problem...

 

Edited June 12, 2020 by Drum
Pore speeling ;-)

[VR-DriftaholiC]

8 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Wasn’t the VR zoom improved to go beyond the same FOV as a monitor? Prior to that improvement the VR zoom was the same 30d FOV which wasn’t considered adequate. At some point the zoom view arms race needs to halt before every player just gets 100x magnification. It’s hard to ID stuff on a 4K screen too sometimes but that’s life. 
An HP Reverb has 4320 x 2160 total resolution which is greater than the average 1080x1920 monitor so how is VR zoom inadequate for that HMD?

 

It's 30 degrees FOV on both monitor and VR.

 

It's far less pixels per degree in VR then on a monitor.

 

I think the zoom levels have parody my self. 

 

Migoto zoomed in a different way which made the planes larger. Actually makes me think there is some planes size scaling in the game by default not just with alt-vis.

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

Guys, must I remind you that SharpeXB is a known troll who frequents the VR forums - without even having a VR headset - which in conclusion simply means he doesn't know what he's talking about. He's just here to talk against it.

 

 

It's like those people that talk against EVs - without having driven one yet. Or those who don't get the idea about comfort in motorcycles. Fishes fabulating about how it is to climb a tree.

[J5_HellCat_]

[SharpeXB]

4 hours ago, Drum said:

they should just increase the size of the image for the zoom level selected by re-render it at the screen's present resolution.

That’s how zoom works now. At least on a monitor. I assume VR is the same. It re-renders the image at a larger size and narrower FOV. Have you actually used it?

3 hours ago, VR-DriftaholiC said:

 

It's 30 degrees FOV on both monitor and VR.

If I understand what Jason said it was both 30 degrees on monitor and VR. But the improved version is greater. That’s not the case? Didn’t they just give VR a larger zoom level?

2 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

He's just here to talk against it.

No I have nothing against VR. I’m all in favor of parity between hardware. But as far as I understand the VR zoom level was recently improved and most people seemed to think it was adequate. Now it’s not?

If the zoom level keeps getting enlarged then all players, monitor and VR will keep asking for it to get larger and larger until it becomes unwieldy. That’s what I’m against. 
 

And who says I might not want VR someday?

Edited June 12, 2020 by SharpeXB

[SCG_Wulfe]

19 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

That’s how zoom works now. At least on a monitor. I assume VR is the same. It re-renders the image at a larger size and narrower FOV. Have you actually used it?

If I understand what Jason said it was both 30 degrees on monitor and VR. But the improved version is greater. That’s not the case? Didn’t they just give VR a larger zoom level?

No I have nothing against VR. I’m all in favor of parity between hardware. But as far as I understand the VR zoom level was recently improved and most people seemed to think it was adequate. Now it’s not?

If the zoom level keeps getting enlarged then all players, monitor and VR will keep asking for it to get larger and larger until it becomes unwieldy. That’s what I’m against. 
 

And who says I might not want VR someday?

 

With the new FOV display that shows along with FPS, I can confirm that both monitor and VR players can now both zoom to 30 degrees.

Before it was much, much less for VR players. We did not have parity of FOV in zoom at all.

 

That all said, the new zoom is live-able and I'm very grateful for it, vs nothing. That said, it still disadvantages VR players based on the factors Siddy mentioned in the OP. I'd like to see us given a touch more to make up for it, but I also understand concerns about perceptions of fairness and so for me its not a fight worth fighting. 

Edited June 12, 2020 by SCG_Wulfe

[SharpeXB]

The zoom level of course is there to make up for lack of resolution for both monitors and VR. But if it tried to really equal 20/20 vision, like literally being able to read an eye chart in the game. I think it would end up being so large that it would be unwieldy. 

[SCG_Wulfe]

To be more clear I should state that what we currently have now... Is mathematically correct zoom for both VR and monitor players.

 

That was not the case before. 

 

That said, we still suffer from external disadvantages such as resolution in VR. But I'll take what I can get. 

Edited June 12, 2020 by SCG_Wulfe

[=420=Syphen]

I think Sharpe didn't even bother reading Siddy's post. He's not suggesting that VR zoom magnification needs to be increased, rather that tweaking the VR LOD would give similar ID'ing abilities to a monitor at the current zoom levels.  

 

 

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, [CPT]HawkeyeP said:

I think Sharpe didn't even bother reading Siddy's post. He's not suggesting that VR zoom magnification needs to be increased, rather that tweaking the VR LOD would give similar ID'ing abilities to a monitor at the current zoom levels.  

If I was a VR player I wouldn’t want “smart scaling” which is basically what that is. It wrecks your ability to judge range and would end up looking really awful. And then you’d have monitor players complaining about giving advantages to VR players. 

[=420=Syphen]

49 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

If I was a VR player I wouldn’t want “smart scaling” which is basically what that is. It wrecks your ability to judge range and would end up looking really awful. And then you’d have monitor players complaining about giving advantages to VR players. 

 

 LOD isn't scaling..  I'm sorry that you don't understand that. 

[Cpt_Siddy]

54 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

If I was a VR player I wouldn’t want “smart scaling” which is basically what that is. It wrecks your ability to judge range and would end up looking really awful. And then you’d have monitor players complaining about giving advantages to VR players. 

 

Please, get acquainted with VR world, because no disrespect, but it is becoming more and more painfully obvious that you just don't know what you are talking about. 

[SharpeXB]

3 hours ago, [CPT]HawkeyeP said:

 LOD isn't scaling..  I'm sorry that you don't understand that. 

The OP mentioned “LoD enlargement” so that sounds like scaling. If it makes sense to tweak that then do it for everyone, not just VR

3 hours ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

Please, get acquainted with VR world, 

I use VR headsets at work actually. As much as I might want to try it here, it’s discussions like this which dissuade me. Maybe someday but not any time soon. 

[Cpt_Siddy]

46 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

 

I use VR headsets at work actually. As much as I might want to try it here, it’s discussions like this which dissuade me. Maybe someday but not any time soon. 

 

So, you use HMD to do Work (???), but never flown in one in this sim? Then you come here, with supposed VR HMD experience and tell us all we are wrong for wanting a Zoom/LoD system that work around the current gen HMD's pixel density limitations to aid for ID. And then you tell us, the pilots who have flown in VR for thousands of hours, that we would not like it when we get what we want (even tho migoto pretty much gave us it and we lament its absence)... 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

If I was a VR player I wouldn’t want “smart scaling” which is basically what that is. It wrecks your ability to judge range and would end up looking really awful. And then you’d have monitor players complaining about giving advantages to VR players. 

 

No, it would not look awful and will not stop us judging range because we don't use zoom for any of that.

 

We spot in normal mode, we judge range in normal mode, zoom is used for ID the target. Some use it for gunnery but  that is optional. 

 

None of this is unfair for screen users, who have their own perks, like easy way to check 6 and much more stable zoom that actually allows for proper spotting...

I had 3 screen setup before i got VR, i can tell you if i was playing this game for money prizes competitively, i would switch back to screens. So much "cheating" with TrackIR motion amplification and so much better spotting and target ID compared to VR is not even funny. 

 

VR users use VR for immersion, not competitive edge. Monitor players who never tried VR in sim are lacking perspective that VR players have on this matter. 

Feels like listening to fish that is trying to teach birds to fly.  

Edited June 12, 2020 by Cpt_Siddy

[dburne]

But, but,

Didn't the real actual WWII Pilots have Track IR?

[unlikely_spider]

2 minutes ago, dburne said:

But, but,

Didn't the real actual WWII Pilots have Track IR?

No - TrackIR first came out in 2002, while WW2 ended in 1945, which is 57 years earlier.

[Cpt_Siddy]

12 minutes ago, dburne said:

But, but,

Didn't the real actual WWII Pilots have Track IR?

 

And 4k screend with 30 degree zoom.

8 minutes ago, unlikely_spider said:

No - TrackIR first came out in 2002, while WW2 ended in 1945, which is 57 years earlier.

I have some secrit documents....

 

Why there is this persistent myth that people in VR use zoom for target searching? 

 

When you have a 110 by 90 degree field of view with roughly 2m pixels to resolve things, you will spot planes easier zoomed out. 

If you have a target, say 8km away, it matters not if you zoom in on it, it will still look like 1 pixel. The difference is, looking without zoom, you will have much more stable platform and far better contrast to spot the one pixel out. 

 

The zoom wont make plane that is invisible without zoom, suddenly visible with zoom. And it most certainly don't make it easier to spot from background clutter, on contrary, it will make it far far harder. 

 

Zoom is there for when you have spotted the target, to figure out what it is, a plane, a bird or a shitposter VR virgin. 

Edited June 12, 2020 by Cpt_Siddy

[SharpeXB]

26 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

So, you use HMD to do Work (???)

I’m an architect. It’s pretty amazing for that stuff. 

[Cpt_Siddy]

3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I’m an architect. It’s pretty amazing for that stuff. 

 

Smuggle HMD out of office and try it out for sim. Call it Corona lock down work from home...

Edited June 12, 2020 by Cpt_Siddy

[SharpeXB]

Just now, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

Smuggle HMD out of office and try it out for sim. 

Oh believe me I’ve considered it ?

[VR-DriftaholiC]

 

19 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

If I understand what Jason said it was both 30 degrees on monitor and VR. But the improved version is greater. That’s not the case? Didn’t they just give VR a larger zoom level?

  

I guess you just come here to shit post in the VR section and don't read patch notes. You can stop spreading that filth now, it's identical zoom since the 05/28. It's not more or less. It was in the past FAR less.

 

On 5/28/2020 at 12:27 PM, Han said:

Dear friends,

 

Having analyzed your feedback after the 4.006c update release, we have found some additional problems on AMD cards with other than MSAA anti-aliasing, which were also apparent with AA and cockpit reflections set to off (there were other, more rare cases as well). During these two days, we were able to reproduce this and find a workaround.

 

Also based on your feedback on the insufficient zoom level in VR we did additional research and adjusted the zoomed-in field of view in VR to look similar to how it looks on a monitor. Several other minor issues were also addressed:

 

1. A number of more rare artifacts that appeared in specific cases (with FXAA or no AA) on AMD cards were fixed;
2. Blinking pixels near the horizon on winter maps shouldn't appear on AMD cards;
3. Minimal FOV in VR looks more like minimal FOV on a monitor;
4. Landscape rendering has been further optimized, this may improve the performance in many situations;
5. Anti-aliasing algorithm has been improved somewhat;
6. I-16 flaps angle indicator has been corrected;
7. Instrument panel won't shimmer on Sopwith Camel and Fokker Dr.I when the cockpit light is turned on;
8. T-34UVZ-43 hatches won't appear too dark from the inside;
9. Pz-III-M and Pz-IV-G have correct visual damage of the additional frontal armor.

 

 

[SharpeXB]

7 hours ago, VR-DriftaholiC said:

It was in the past FAR less.

I know it was less. If I recall correctly that what Jason said, they figured the old zoom level was “equal” because it gave the same 30d FOV. Those threads have been deleted I think. Doesn’t matter now in any case, the VR zoom level is larger now. Old news. 

[VR-DriftaholiC]

On 6/13/2020 at 8:15 AM, SharpeXB said:

I know it was less. If I recall correctly that what Jason said, they figured the old zoom level was “equal” because it gave the same 30d FOV. Those threads have been deleted I think. Doesn’t matter now in any case, the VR zoom level is larger now. Old news. 

 

Things like that goes to show the Developers don't play the game in VR as much as this community does. So when the developers them self's get it wrong imagine how you appear preaching to us.

Edited June 15, 2020 by VR-DriftaholiC

[Seapiglet]

Completely agree that VR zoom is all about ID and not spotting. My idea was to allow everyone (flat screen and HMD) to zoom as much as they like, but to start progressively blurring or pixelating once you go beyond a certain point to mimic the resolving power of a typical pilot’s eyeball. 
 

I am pretty pleased with the new zoom though. Haven’t tried it online but a big step up in single player at least. 

[HunDread]

On 6/12/2020 at 9:59 AM, Drum said:

Maybe the method of zoom needs changing.  For instance, if you increase a small thumbnail picture that was taken with a low res camera the picture blurs as it gets bigger, which is the same method the game uses to zoom now.  Instead, they should just increase the size of the image for the zoom level selected by re-rendering it at the screen's present resolution.  End of problem...

 

 

I think this is a very good idea! Can be applied in 2d and 3d so should not create shiotstorms (I believe I'm lying here).

 

I would also add an idea to amend this that on max zoom the background could be blurred just a little bit kind of simulating how optics and our eyes work (what we focus on is sharp, the rest is not) and at the same time making identification easier by tearing out planes from the background a bit.  

Edited June 17, 2020 by HunDread

[SharpeXB]

4 hours ago, HunDread said:

 

I would also add an idea to amend this that on max zoom the background could be blurred just a little bit kind of simulating how optics and our eyes work (what we focus on is sharp, the rest is not) and at the same time making identification easier by tearing out planes from the background a bit.  

The game can’t know where you’re “eyes” are focusing at, so how would it know the foreground from the background?

On 6/12/2020 at 2:59 AM, Drum said:

Maybe the method of zoom needs changing.  For instance, if you increase a small thumbnail picture that was taken with a low res camera the picture blurs as it gets bigger, which is the same method the game uses to zoom now. 

This is not how zoom view works in the game, at least on a monitor. Where are you getting this from?

The image or FOV is enlarged to the screens resolution, not pixelated. There is no blur as you zoom in. 

Edited June 17, 2020 by SharpeXB

[HunDread]

15 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The game can’t know where you’re “eyes” are focusing at, so how would it know the foreground from the background?

 

We are all looking at planes and objects. I understand you mean how the game would know if I am looking at a closer plane or a far away plane. It wouldn't have to. Background is terrain, clouds, water etc.. I know it's not possible to simulate our eyes in the game, the idea is to help spotting and IDing with something that is not too far off from real life, even if it's not exactly like real life. But when you try to check something on the other side of a river you don't simply reduce your FOV to 30 degrees either.

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, HunDread said:

 

We are all looking at planes and objects. I understand you mean how the game would know if I am looking at a closer plane or a far away plane. It wouldn't have to. Background is terrain, clouds, water etc.. I know it's not possible to simulate our eyes in the game, the idea is to help spotting and IDing with something that is not too far off from real life, even if it's not exactly like real life. But when you try to check something on the other side of a river you don't simply reduce your FOV to 30 degrees either.

So the game would blur the whole view except for the aircraft? Doesn’t seem very attractive. 

[Drum]

Having background blur is a good idea, because zoom is only supposed to be used for ID'ing planes/ground targets quickly anyways;  a blurred background would definitely keep zoom from being exploited.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Drum

[SharpeXB]

15 minutes ago, Drum said:

Having background blur is a good idea, because zoom is only supposed to be used for ID'ing planes/ground targets quickly anyways;  a blurred background would definitely keep zoom from being exploited.

Zoom isn’t an exploit. 

[Drum]

So long as the range used for the zoom is the same range as what's possible to realistically ID targets, then I agree it wouldn't be.  Beyond that range it would be a cheat IMO.  Regarding the blurring of the background, on second thought that would most likely make spotting dots easier, so I take back my support for that.  ?

Edited June 18, 2020 by Drum

[HunDread]

12 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

So the game would blur the whole view except for the aircraft? Doesn’t seem very attractive. 

 

That's how your eyes work. I don't say this idea would be 1 to 1 simulation of our eyes but it wouldn't be too far off and would help spotting (especially against ground) and probably id-ing a bit  which wouldn't hurt anyone on 2d or 3d side. And I don't mean crazy blurring, just a little bit to tear the objects apart form the background a bit and only on max zoom so if you want to zoom to find an airfield or navigation point you could still use 99% zoom to do that with current clarity.

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, HunDread said:

That's how your eyes work.

Yeah but there’s no way to simulate that on a monitor or in VR. 

[HunDread]

39 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Yeah but there’s no way to simulate that on a monitor or in VR. 

 

Right that's clear. Just as I told that too. But that shouldn't prevent doing improvements. It's like saying we should dump the g-force effects because we cannot simulate the real life g-forces. Or like not flying a simulator at all because we cannot simulate real life flying.