190 A-6 and Bf 109 G-6 Late

[Raven109]

3 hours ago, esk_pedja said:

And to be honest, many USAF fighter "aces" scored their kills due to described favorable  situation... rather than their "amazing" flying skills...

 

Well, I think that just goes to prove the the USAF had a better strategy for a long distance, long time war. Aerial fights cannot be analysed without a context, in a void. It's not like we have it on our servers, where all that decides the outcome of a map is aircraft mastery.

 

In war, battles are many times decided by strategy and tactics and war production. If USAF's strategy of daylight bombing sorties put the Luftwaffe in a difficult situation, that means that the USAF is already doing better than the opponent and that its pilots' jobs will be easier, being in a better tactical situation when they engage, as they should be if you want success. It doesn't take anything away from USAF's achievement.

Edited June 13, 2020 by Raven109

[41Sqn_Skipper]

2 hours ago, III/JG53Frankyboy said:

let me guess, you (@ Raven) didnt flew "COOP" onlinewars with IL2'46 in the Hyperlobby ?

Because, IF, there would be not this discussion.

 

In VOW it was in General 8 Players versus 8 Players - sometimes 10 or 12  for one side , depended on the missions. With a lot of AI planes ( numbers increased over the years as the PC could handle more AI planes).

There were AI bomberescort/intercepts, human Bombers with human escorts and itercepts, ground- , shipattack missions with escorts and intercepts - and some Special Mission.

And yes, espacially in the PTO, we build sometimes missions that lastet around one hour from starting to landing (if you were still alive...)

 

Missing it ?

[Bremspropeller]

3 hours ago, Raven109 said:

Then we are clearly defining 

 

COOP: Cooperative gameplay (often abbreviated as co-op) is a feature in games that allows players to work together as teammates, usually against one or more non-player character opponents.

 

and

 

PvP: Player(s) versus player(s), better known as PvP, is a type of multiplayer interactive conflict within a game between two or more live participants.

 

differently.

 

Nope.

You're just defining it wrong.

 

AI only fills slots if there aren't enough human players around - which during VOW/ VOW2 almost never was the case.

Hyperlobby ftw.

[Pikestance]

12 hours ago, Raven109 said:

Yes, the nature of war is to achieve in-balance,

 

No, I said the nature of war is to achieve Imbalance. 

 

12 hours ago, Raven109 said:

 

I wasn't talking about having equal skill on both sides, because in the sim, due to natural distribution, we do have equal skill on both sides. There are many who fly on both sides. I was talking about having the same skill level as the pilots who flew IRL. 

 

Yes, the nature of war is to achieve in-balance, no doubt about that; on the other hand the nature of games is to achieve fun, otherwise there will be no sales. Here's an example. I build a chess game where the AI is always set to maximum difficulty, so that not even expert chess players can beat it consistently. How many people do you think will buy such a game? How many people enjoy fighting uphill? Those are in minority. More so, how many of those who buy it will play it for a long time, getting their behind kicked 99% of the time. Will the game sell well? Will the game have good reviews?

 

There have been several polls and surveys conducted and the vast majority of people play on "legendary" and many players play on "iron man setting. I is also recommended to improve you should play against stronger opponents. People who become frustrated in quit in difficult situation should probably stick to less realism and more arcade type games and settings. Heck when i was first learning how to take off in a 109 it took me like a 100 times (hyperbole) to get it right. If you quit in such circumstances, you are playing the wrong game. The game despite this, does allow you to "baby step" your way to expert level, so go a your own pace. 

 

12 hours ago, Raven109 said:

The question about your last paragraph is: do people who like challenges represent the majority, or the minority? Games are usually made for the majority of the player base, not for the minority. Minimum implementation effort for maximum gain. 

 

No, there is no such thing as perfect balance, but should we go and make it even worse by simulating unbalanced scenarios? Do the majority of people generally like unbalanced scenarios? Don't think so...

 

I have no idea if they are the minority or majority. They are people who suggested Pearl Harbor has a game for the PTO, so they obviously want that challenge. 

Historical scenarios are more difficult to  create because of the research involved and that it can only be done on a limited timescale. Most servers run continuously. Which always leads to imbalance In other genres, the historical scenario in which there is imbalance of power, the objectives would be multi-leveled. Simply doing better than historical results would be considered a marginal victory. You do not need the illusion of balance in order to have enjoyment. 

 

12 hours ago, Raven109 said:

I wasn't making such an argument, not sure where that comes from.

 

I was responding to your strawman with a humorous response. 

 

 

 

[BraveSirRobin]

8 hours ago, 41Sqn_Skipper said:

 

What's missing/limiting in Great Battles COOP compared to 46? (Honest question)

 

IMHO the whole dogfight environment is totally flawed compared to COOP.

 

People who still want to play co-ops.  That's mostly what's missing.

Edited June 14, 2020 by BraveSirRobin

[SAS_Storebror]

I think building a really good Coop mission with all it's AI activity, specific target types for everyone and the required precise timing, is much harder than rushing out a quick&dirty DF AirQuake® dogfight one with a couple of lovelessly spreaded static ground targets.

And even the DF AirQuake® one isn't an easy task due to the complexity of ME (which has been discussed in-depth already).

 

Add to that, the way IL-2 GB presents available servers to it's users contributes to the single focus on gangbang DF servers massively.

Ask yourself: How often have you clicked on the Multiplayer "Coop" button in the past 6 months at all?

And how often did you switch mods off/on just to see what's on the other side of the fence?

It would be a much more level playing field with a lot more potential variety if all servers, be it DF or Coop, be it mods on or off, would be presented in one big list and the user could decide whether or not to apply filters to this list on the fly.

There's no good reason to hide Coop servers from people being used to fly DF ones, and there's definitely no reason on earth why a mods-off user shouldn't be able to join a mods-on server (yes I get why it cannot work the other way around, but that's not the issue here).

 

Mike

[Raven109]

7 hours ago, [=PzG=]-FlyinPinkPanther said:

 

No, I said the nature of war is to achieve Imbalance. 

 

 

There have been several polls and surveys conducted and the vast majority of people play on "legendary" and many players play on "iron man setting. I is also recommended to improve you should play against stronger opponents. People who become frustrated in quit in difficult situation should probably stick to less realism and more arcade type games and settings. Heck when i was first learning how to take off in a 109 it took me like a 100 times (hyperbole) to get it right. If you quit in such circumstances, you are playing the wrong game. The game despite this, does allow you to "baby step" your way to expert level, so go a your own pace. 

 

 

I have no idea if they are the minority or majority. They are people who suggested Pearl Harbor has a game for the PTO, so they obviously want that challenge. 

Historical scenarios are more difficult to  create because of the research involved and that it can only be done on a limited timescale. Most servers run continuously. Which always leads to imbalance In other genres, the historical scenario in which there is imbalance of power, the objectives would be multi-leveled. Simply doing better than historical results would be considered a marginal victory. You do not need the illusion of balance in order to have enjoyment. 

 

 

I was responding to your strawman with a humorous response. 

 

 

 

 

Well, your whole post is based on the assumption that this is about me... and that I was talking somehow about offline play. Playing against the AI on the most difficult setting is the same as playing against a rookie MP pilot (actually even less than that). Any AI can be easily countered by doing a slow turn, just like it was in il2 1946 before TD started taking over...

 

Taking a few vocal guys on a forum and thinking that they are representative for the majority who play games is not the best way to go when doing statistics... just look at the gaming industry, simplicity is preferred over complex stuff, and it's not about being "tougher" than the other guy, it's also about people not having as much time as they'd like...

 

What was my strawman?

 

-------------------------------------------------

22 hours ago, CountZero said:

On WoL they have now 2 west front only maps, one is late with all mods and bobp airplanes exept cheat 262, and other is normandy with no boosts for reds and no k4 and d9s and cheat 262s for blues, and no problems they still have more blue players on them. You aint gona be fighting only g6 and a6 vs Spit XIVs online on bon missions, i expect to have pre invasion missions with g2 g4 g6 and a3 a5 a6 vs early 47s 51s spits and after invasion similar to what they have now on normandy mission. If players advocate for historical airplanes then numbers on side also need to be historicly set, and you aint gon have that so balanced is what you get in most cases.

 

20 hours ago, =621=Samikatz said:

 

You don't hear LaGG-3 pilots or I-16 fans complain online, I'm sure it'll be fine

 

If it isn't, then there's tools for server owners to encourage or even enforce team balance, and if that becomes necessary they'll use it

 

Yes, well, that was my point, and I agree with you guys that it will get sorted somehow. However, this only applies to people who have other expansion packs before getting BoN. If they get just BoN, they are stuck with the set that they have, and won't be able to benefit from the balance enforcing rules, which in essence forces them to buy yet another pack.

Edited June 14, 2020 by Raven109

[Pikestance]

6 minutes ago, Raven109 said:

Well, your whole post is based on the assumption that this is about me... and that I was talking somehow about offline play. Playing against the AI on the most difficult setting is the same as playing against a rookie MP pilot. Any AI can be easily countered by doing a slow turn, just like it was in il2 1946 before TD started taking over...

 

I didn't assume that at all. My comments were a generalized statement based on your initial comment. 

I would argue that the rookie AI have more situational awareness than many "new" MP players if videos of MP servers are to be taken as evidence. 

 

 

6 minutes ago, Raven109 said:

Taking a few vocal guys on a forum and thinking that they are representative for the majority who play games is not the best way to go when doing statistics... just look at the gaming industry, simplicity is preferred over complex stuff, and it's not about about being "tougher" than the other guy, it's also about people not having as much time as they'd like...

 

It is common knowledge that most do not comment here. 

This game is "complex" thus not a mainstream game. For the arcadist crowd they certainly do have ways to make it easier. In some cases, it is ridiculously easy, like the icons. 

 

 

6 minutes ago, Raven109 said:

What was my strawman?

 

In your response to historical realism, you mentioned unreasonable degree of realism. So I took it a step further and had good fun with it. Simulation create a proximity of real life, not a replication of it. 

[JG5_Schuck]

13 hours ago, 216th_LuseKofte said:

Yes the luftwaffe pilots wanted historical preferences all these years. And I see no reasons to stop now when it bites their asses

 

Hey LuseKofte, 

Some of us fly blue no matter what the odds.

I would rather fly on a full settings server with a historical plane set, so as to experience the difficulties they faced (as much as you can do in a sim!)

And yes, i know the Luftwaffe where out numbered 10:1(?) in Normandy, but i think just having the inferior planes will do! ?

I look forward to the challenge!

[Raven109]

30 minutes ago, [=PzG=]-FlyinPinkPanther said:

In your response to historical realism, you mentioned unreasonable degree of realism. So I took it a step further and had good fun with it. Simulation create a proximity of real life, not a replication of it. 

 

You mean this?

 

"I mean, if we want accuracy, why not recreate Barbarossa in its initial months. And the red side would just sit on the ground watching the blue strafe their aircraft, or perhaps Case White (the invasion of Poland), or maybe the Allied bombing campaigns, where the blue side would have to climb to intercept bombers, with strict orders not to engage fighters, all this while getting pounced by high altitude P-47/51s. Not much gameplay there, but still, they all happened."

 

I didn't mean realism in the way you mean it. I meant delivering an unbalanced plane set in line with the situation over the western front during the Normandy invasion, just so that the expansion can be called the Battle of Normandy. That kind of realism, as in sticking to real world situations just for the sake of it, when on a computer you can't simulate history as some people would like to think that you can without upsetting balance and game play, which are two important factors to consider for the success of a mainstream sim.

 

Anyway, this is getting to be a longer conversation than I intended it to be.

 

I will pay for more aircraft if they are available for BoN (which I really hope they are, maybe as collector planes - e.g. G6/U3, G6/AS), and I really don't care that these aircraft were part of the June invasion line-up or not. Historical accuracy which doesn't hold up beyond the name of the package should not limit the plane sets.

Edited June 14, 2020 by Raven109

[WWChunk]

8 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

People who still want to play co-ops.  That's mostly what's missing.

If you’re basing that statement on available COOP servers in game, you’re 100% correct. I don’t think that means fewer folks want to fly in them though.

 

The squad I’ve been with since 2004, the WingWalkers, flew COOPS in 1946 and continue to do so in this series. The caveat is that they’re setup as a dogfight server, and you’ll usually see our private server pop up on Tuesdays and Sundays. If enough of us join, we’ll have some pilots fly OPFOR, but they’re setup to have us, as a squad, accomplish objectives with enemy AI present to stop us. 

I like a lot of the dogfight servers made available to us, but the majority of my enjoyment with this sim is with my squad in COOPS. I would be surprised if that’s not the case with more than a handful of virtual pilots here. 

[Lusekofte]

1 hour ago, JG5_Schuck said:

 

Hey LuseKofte, 

Some of us fly blue no matter what the odds.

I would rather fly on a full settings server with a historical plane set, so as to experience the difficulties they faced (as much as you can do in a sim!)

And yes, i know the Luftwaffe where out numbered 10:1(?) in Normandy, but i think just having the inferior planes will do! ?

I look forward to the challenge!

Read what I wrote further up. I stated there are many blue pilots Willing to fly underdogs and do well in them. 
Impression from a few vocal ones make impression of opposite. 
My point is it does not matter for any serious flyer how a plane perform compared to opponents as long as it got historical preferences and performance mirror historical facts. 
You just prove what I say. I will fly ME 410 G 6 Arado and JU 88 C 6 myself and I really hopethey got the FM right

Edited June 14, 2020 by 216th_LuseKofte

[Raven109]

2 hours ago, JG5_Schuck said:

 

Hey LuseKofte, 

Some of us fly blue no matter what the odds.

I would rather fly on a full settings server with a historical plane set, so as to experience the difficulties they faced (as much as you can do in a sim!)

And yes, i know the Luftwaffe where out numbered 10:1(?) in Normandy, but i think just having the inferior planes will do! ?

I look forward to the challenge!

 

I also fly blue no matter if outnumbered or outclassed. Just curious, do you think we're the majority or the minority, when it comes to sticking to the same side (or even plane) regardless of situation? I think we're in minority (in relation to the whole player base), I'm talking strictly about MP (SP is irrelevant for this discussion, since the AI is very easy to defeat, no matter the plane, or side, or difficulty setting). 

[Lusekofte]

4 minutes ago, Raven109 said:

 

I also fly blue no matter if outnumbered or outclassed. Just curious, do you think we're the majority or the minority, when it comes to sticking to the same side (or even plane) regardless of situation? I think we're in minority (in relation to the whole player base), I'm talking strictly about MP (SP is irrelevant for this discussion, since the AI is very easy to defeat, no matter the plane, or side, or difficulty setting). 

I flew exclusive red the first years until kuban. By then HE 111 had less helium baloon feel to it and HS 129 came. And the gravity towards blue side was less. 
Anyone choosing only one side loose some fun in my opinion, but each on their own. 
I can not see any problem with the plane set at all G 10 will come in next pack. 

Edited June 14, 2020 by 216th_LuseKofte

[CountZero]

4 hours ago, Raven109 said:

 

Well, your whole post is based on the assumption that this is about me... and that I was talking somehow about offline play. Playing against the AI on the most difficult setting is the same as playing against a rookie MP pilot (actually even less than that). Any AI can be easily countered by doing a slow turn, just like it was in il2 1946 before TD started taking over...

 

Taking a few vocal guys on a forum and thinking that they are representative for the majority who play games is not the best way to go when doing statistics... just look at the gaming industry, simplicity is preferred over complex stuff, and it's not about being "tougher" than the other guy, it's also about people not having as much time as they'd like...

 

What was my strawman?

 

-------------------------------------------------

 

 

Yes, well, that was my point, and I agree with you guys that it will get sorted somehow. However, this only applies to people who have other expansion packs before getting BoN. If they get just BoN, they are stuck with the set that they have, and won't be able to benefit from the balance enforcing rules, which in essence forces them to buy yet another pack.

If players is axis fighter type (most comon thing in MP univers in this game) why would he even buy BoN, we already had BoBp at 50% (even if you buy standard you get best fighter airplanes you need for BoN or BoBp and any late war missions on east front maps) and by time BoN is near end it will be at 75% price, and also you can get best anton 190a3 at 75% and 109G6 also at 75%, both can be used in MP on BoN missions so for 22$ you have all what you need, why spend 60$ for standard BoN just to get A6 and same G6. So if they dont spice up the offer and add as most posible G6Late modifications they can, why would axis fighter player buy BoN and just BoN, most will have BoBp as it has best airplanes and its gona be cheap and airplanes can be used alot.

Edited June 14, 2020 by CountZero

[Raven109]

2 minutes ago, CountZero said:

If players is axis fighter type (most comon thing in MP univers in this game) why would he even buy BoN, we already had BoBp at 50% (even if you buy standard you get best fighter airplanes you need for BoN or BoBp) and by time BoN is near end it will be at 75% price, and also you can get best anton 190a3 at 75% and 109G6 also at 75%, both can be used in MP on BoN missions. So if they dont spice up the offer and add as most posible G6Late modifications they can, why would axis fighter player buy BoN and just BoN, most will have BoBp as it has best airplanes and its gona be cheap and airplanes can be used alot.

 

Sure, that's another solution, not buying BoN.

[CountZero]

Just now, Raven109 said:

 

Sure, that's another solution, not buying BoN.

And i think most axis fighter types will just do that if devs dont add more engine options for G6

[Lusekofte]

34 minutes ago, CountZero said:

So if they dont spice up the offer and add as most posible G6Late modifications they can, why would axis fighter player buy BoN and just BoN, most will have BoBp as it has best airplanes and its gona be cheap and airplanes can be used alot.

They will not be available in BON scenario. And if they chicken out well good riddance to them

30 minutes ago, CountZero said:

And i think most axis fighter types will just do that if devs dont add more engine options for G6

Your pain and hidden treats is so subtile that it almost is not visable. 
you are obviously the face of the myth created about luftwhiners. 
I really did not believe it existed. 
Buhuu I wont get the most powerful plane

Edited June 14, 2020 by 216th_LuseKofte

[Pikestance]

32 minutes ago, CountZero said:

If players is axis fighter type (most comon thing in MP univers in this game) why would he even buy BoN, we already had BoBp at 50% (even if you buy standard you get best fighter airplanes you need for BoN or BoBp and any late war missions on east front maps) and by time BoN is near end it will be at 75% price, and also you can get best anton 190a3 at 75% and 109G6 also at 75%, both can be used in MP on BoN missions so for 22$ you have all what you need, why spend 60$ for standard BoN just to get A6 and same G6. So if they dont spice up the offer and add as most posible G6Late modifications they can, why would axis fighter player buy BoN and just BoN, most will have BoBp as it has best airplanes and its gona be cheap and airplanes can be used alot.

 

I would buy either way. The unit we fly didn't fly the G14 but the G6, but the current G6 in game is not the same plane. 

Moreover, if MP servers are using Normandy map which plane would you fly if you do not own BON? 

[CountZero]

9 minutes ago, [=PzG=]-FlyinPinkPanther said:

 

I would buy either way. The unit we fly didn't fly the G14 but the G6, but the current G6 in game is not the same plane. 

Moreover, if MP servers are using Normandy map which plane would you fly if you do not own BON? 

190A3, A5, A8, 109G2, 109G4, G6, G14, SpitV, Spit9e, P-38J, P51D, P-47D, Tempest V  they will all be available at some point in MP on 1943, early 44 or mid 44 time missions using BoN map.

[JG5_Schuck]

45 minutes ago, CountZero said:

If players is axis fighter type (most comon thing in MP univers in this game) why would he even buy BoN, we already had BoBp at 50% (even if you buy standard you get best fighter airplanes you need for BoN or BoBp and any late war missions on east front maps) and by time BoN is near end it will be at 75% price, and also you can get best anton 190a3 at 75% and 109G6 also at 75%, both can be used in MP on BoN missions so for 22$ you have all what you need, why spend 60$ for standard BoN just to get A6 and same G6. So if they dont spice up the offer and add as most posible G6Late modifications they can, why would axis fighter player buy BoN and just BoN, most will have BoBp as it has best airplanes and its gona be cheap and airplanes can be used alot.

 

That's a real shame if people have that outlook.

I know not everyone has the cash (or the interest) to buy a DLC when its first released.

I've always supported the Sim and purchased every collectors plane and even the Tanks,  though i don't use them.

I wonder how people would feel if the Devs just packed up and shut up shop!

 

PS. the G10 would make more sense...

 

And i prefer early war..... lets have some E3's....153's (with ski's!) DB3/Il4..

[=621=Samikatz]

2 minutes ago, JG5_Schuck said:

 

PS. the G10 would make more sense...

 

It would not, as it was introduced quite a bit after this battle ended

[CountZero]

5 minutes ago, JG5_Schuck said:

 

That's a real shame if people have that outlook.

I know not everyone has the cash (or the interest) to buy a DLC when its first released.

I've always supported the Sim and purchased every collectors plane and even the Tanks,  though i don't use them.

I wonder how people would feel if the Devs just packed up and shut up shop!

 

PS. the G10 would make more sense...

 

And i prefer early war..... lets have some E3's....153's (with ski's!) DB3/Il4..

I guess new people who get atracted to game from WT for example would like to get most for money, so i would be suprised if they dont go that way, even when you look at allied fighters, for BoN you just need to get BoBp at sale and then Spitfire MkXIV as its collectable, if your fighter guy you dont realy need wors cocpit view you get with razerback 51 and 47 when you can use BoBp versions, and you get Spit9 and Tempest also. If player is ground attacker typpe then yes you have benefits of going for BoN in adition to BoBp, map you dont need to buy to be able to play online on it... so to me they need to add few interesting things for all in long run, and adding few engine options for G6 is not so hard when benefit would be good.

Edited June 14, 2020 by CountZero

[JG5_Schuck]

1 hour ago, =621=Samikatz said:

 

It would not, as it was introduced quite a bit after this battle ended

 

I meant as a whole for the game,

Not for BoN, as it was 4th (?) largest serially produced 109. (more G10's than F2, F4, G2, G4 and we have them)

For BoN , as stated by CountZero, a G6 with the options of  Erla canopy, larger tail and MW50  would help keep things alive for the Blue side sales wise...

[Lusekofte]

We will see a myriad of plane set from all time eras because of the bombers 

If bobp plane is in it both sides is represented and server owners will have the finishing word. 
There will be no problems flying something even if not owning bon. 
But I simply can not see any reason not buying it. Bon got the best plane set of all. 

[76IAP-Black]

On 6/12/2020 at 8:09 PM, Jaws2002 said:

 

 

 

Where in my post did you see me say that this two planes are not needed? 

 They are coming anyway. I just said that I don't mind this two being released last, since they already have a ton of versions in game and some of them very similar. 

 Here's the list of planes for battle of Normandy:

 

P-51B/C

P-47D “Razorback”

Typhoon

Mosquito F.B. Mk.VI

Bf 109 G-6 “Late”

Fw 190 A-6

Ju 88 C-6a

Me 410

Spitfire Mk.XIV

Ar 234

 

Out of this list The BF-109G6 Late has, by far, the most similar versions in game. Eight BF-109s are already in the game!

Then the FW-190 has four versions in game already.

Yes, I  think this two could be left to the end of the list without ruining the game for anyone.  

 

I'd rather have them released in this order:

 1. Mosquito F.B. Mk.VI - There are no mosquitos in game yet, so .....

2. Arado 234 --first jet bomber. Nothing like it in the game. 

3. Typhoon -- not that far off from the Tempest, but nowhere near as close to it as the new German fighters are to their in game versions.

4. Ju 88 C6a  There's Ju88 in the game, but it's bomber. This one is pretty different.

5.  Spitfire Mk.XIV - there are two spits in game, but this one has solid performance advantage over them

6. P-51B/C 

7. P-47D “Razorback”

8. Me 410 - Interesting and different, but we have quite a few 110s in game, so i think it sits good in this position

9. Fw-190A6 -

10. Bf-109 G6 Late

 

 Obviously, we'll get them in the order they can make them, so this is a pointless discussion.

 

 

 

 

Then i apologize, maybe i have missread your post 

[Yogiflight]

1 hour ago, 76IAP-Black said:

8. Me 410 - Interesting and different, but we have quite a few 110s in game

LOL, quite a few. Yes, exactly 2, in words 'two' (✌️). And the 110 and the 410 don't have a lot in common. Something about like the B 25 and B 26, I'd say.

[LukeFF]

The 410 is going to be a good choice due to its versatility - ground attack, dive bomber, level bomber, night intruder, bomber destroyer, it did it all. 

Edited June 14, 2020 by LukeFF

[76IAP-Black]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

The 410 is going to be a good choice due to its versatility - ground attack, dive bomber, level bomber, night intruder, bomber destroyer, it did it all. 

And it is a more unique aircraft in flight Sims ?

1 hour ago, Yogiflight said:

LOL, quite a few. Yes, exactly 2, in words 'two' (✌️). And the 110 and the 410 don't have a lot in common. Something about like the B 25 and B 26, I'd say.

Read it carefully, it is writen by Jaws2002

 

You have quoted my own quote ?

[Yogiflight]

13 minutes ago, 76IAP-Black said:

Read it carefully, it is writen by Jaws2002

 

You have quoted my own quote ?

LOL, sorry mate, I indeed missed that.

[sevenless]

On 6/12/2020 at 8:05 PM, Raven109 said:

 

And the AS/M as a collector plane. Sorry, couldn't help myself.

 

Absolutely. G6/14 AS/ASM would be an istabuy for me. 

[Pikestance]

10 hours ago, CountZero said:

190A3, A5, A8, 109G2, 109G4, G6, G14, SpitV, Spit9e, P-38J, P51D, P-47D, Tempest V  they will all be available at some point in MP on 1943, early 44 or mid 44 time missions using BoN map.

 

If you do not own BON you would not be able to fly the planes from it. 

If someone creates an unhistorical scenario, then the yahoos can have their party on the farce server. They are the minority of the minority. 

[sevenless]

3 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

Yeah, but that would not be a fitting model.

 

I know but Fw190 A6 wont be fitting for the timeframe either, so ...

[CountZero]

10 hours ago, [=PzG=]-FlyinPinkPanther said:

 

If you do not own BON you would not be able to fly the planes from it. 

If someone creates an unhistorical scenario, then the yahoos can have their party on the farce server. They are the minority of the minority. 

All thouse airplanes flew over Normandy at some point in time and some at same time as airplanes you get with BoN ( Ar-234 you get in BoN dont even have base on map it operated from and its not even type that flew there and you still get it with BoN )  and on what full historical servers your playing on ?

[mattebubben]

? the Fw-190A6 definately fits the timeframe.

There were Fw-190A6's present in normandy during D-Day with the A-6 being in production until Febuary-April 1944 (Sources differ)

and since the Campaign  timeframe Starts in April and lasts until August there would definately be large numbers of Fw-190A6 in the area during that timeframe...

(With the A-8 Replacing them over time) with a number certainly still in use by D-Day (Though the Fw-190A8 would be more numerous at that point)

 

In Comparison the P-38J-25 did not enter service in that theatre untill July 1944.

So untill July it would only be the earlier P-38J blocks lacking the dive break and the power-boosted ailerons of the J-25.

So the Fw-190A6 fits the the time frame just fine...

(Since while it was not longer the most common Fw-190 variant present by D-Day a few were still flying.

and in early 1944 it would have been the most numerous variant of the F-190 in the area)

Edited June 15, 2020 by mattebubben

[sevenless]

22 minutes ago, mattebubben said:

? the Fw-190A6 definately fits the timeframe.

There were Fw-190A6's present in normandy during D-Day with the A-6 being in production until Febuary-April 1944 (Sources differ)

and since the Campaign  timeframe Starts in April and lasts until August there would definately be large numbers of Fw-190A6 in the area during that timeframe...

(With the A-8 Replacing them over time) with a number certainly still in use by D-Day (Though the Fw-190A8 would be more numerous at that point)

 

In Comparison the P-38J-25 did not enter service in that theatre untill July 1944.

So untill July it would only be the earlier P-38J blocks lacking the dive break and the power-boosted ailerons of the J-25.

So the Fw-190A6 fits the the time frame just fine...

(Since while it was not longer the most commong Fw-190 variant present by D-Day it was still there

and in early 1944 it would have been the most numerous variant of the F-190 in the area)

 

It was there in very minor quantities, you can crosscheck that also with Bestandsmeldungen here https://www.ww2.dk/. Look at the loss lists for NW France and Normandy and you get the picture. However don´t get me wrong I´m not complaining at all. I think integrating the A6 is the better choice from a gamers perspective than the A7, at least for everyone who already owns BoBP.

Edited June 15, 2020 by sevenless

[mattebubben]

Yes by D-Day it was there in very minor quantities. (and yes i am familiar with ww2.dk...)

Though in April (starting date for the Campaign) it will be present in larger numbers.

 

And We already have the A-8 in the game which was the standard variant by mid 1944.

 

Im just making the point that the Fw-190A6 is still a much better fit for D-Day then the P-38J-25 is...

Since while only a couple of A6s were still around by that time that was still more then the Number of P-38J-25 present at D-Day...

 

So while yes its not a perfect fit for June-August 1944 it still fits. (And in Comparison the P-38J-25 is not a fit for Pre/Early D-day but is a good fit for July-August)

And it is a better fit for the Pre D-Day period where they were more numerous

 

So saying that the A-6 does not fit for D-day is incorrect as they were present even if there were present in only very small numbers at that point.

While Saying the P-38J-25 does not fit is correct since it was not yet operational in the area.

Edited June 15, 2020 by mattebubben

[Pikestance]

2 hours ago, CountZero said:

All thouse airplanes flew over Normandy at some point in time and some at same time as airplanes you get with BoN ( Ar-234 you get in BoN dont even have base on map it operated from and its not even type that flew there and you still get it with BoN )  and on what full historical servers your playing on ?

 

I am not an apologist for the developers. Which 109 would you include that would fit within the time frame of Normandy? 109 G6 Late. I know yahoos like to fly the "best" plane available on the server irrespective of any "unit" they adopt. The only map the G14 could be argued would be the second map starting in July. 

 

If you asking me what historical server, then you have not read much of what I have written on the subject. There are two types of scenarios prevalent on the servers; fictional or historically inspired. I sometime refer to the latter as historically based, though, "inspired" may be a more accurate word choice. Historical servers are next to impossible to really do unless it is hosted at a set time. A rotating schedule probably won't work without some degree of coordination and planning. 

 

Alternatively, you could approach the other scenarios from a historical POV, if you choose your aircraft and mission type based on historical record of the unit you have adopted. This could be tenuous. For example, III./JG 77 did spend some time on the eastern front, it was in the Ukraine, which is not part of any current maps. Moreover, it also spent time in Greece (including Crete), North Africa, Italy, and even Romania. None of which is depicted. They flew Trop variants mostly from 1942 to 1043 as well. We do the next best thing. In my unit we also restrict which aircraft they can fly. If they lose their allotment of G2s, then they will have to fly a different aircraft or switch to an earlier war plane or later war plane. Having a bit of fun with the role play. 

[CountZero]

23 hours ago, [=PzG=]-FlyinPinkPanther said:

 

I am not an apologist for the developers. Which 109 would you include that would fit within the time frame of Normandy? 109 G6 Late. I know yahoos like to fly the "best" plane available on the server irrespective of any "unit" they adopt. The only map the G14 could be argued would be the second map starting in July. 

 

If you asking me what historical server, then you have not read much of what I have written on the subject. There are two types of scenarios prevalent on the servers; fictional or historically inspired. I sometime refer to the latter as historically based, though, "inspired" may be a more accurate word choice. Historical servers are next to impossible to really do unless it is hosted at a set time. A rotating schedule probably won't work without some degree of coordination and planning. 

 

Alternatively, you could approach the other scenarios from a historical POV, if you choose your aircraft and mission type based on historical record of the unit you have adopted. This could be tenuous. For example, III./JG 77 did spend some time on the eastern front, it was in the Ukraine, which is not part of any current maps. Moreover, it also spent time in Greece (including Crete), North Africa, Italy, and even Romania. None of which is depicted. They flew Trop variants mostly from 1942 to 1043 as well. We do the next best thing. In my unit we also restrict which aircraft they can fly. If they lose their allotment of G2s, then they will have to fly a different aircraft or switch to an earlier war plane or later war plane. Having a bit of fun with the role play. 

But i can just play with G6 that is 5$, why buy G6 from BoN if its basicly same airplane if they dont add more modifications to its engine. They added modifications to airplanes that dont fit before, i just give you example of whole airplane that they added in BoN that is wrong type and dont even have base of operation on map so its no problem to just add more modifications to G6 that comes with BoN to make it more differant from G6 that yu can get as collector airplane.

And post you quoted gives you all historicly correct airplanes for battles in normandy, but somehow you think they are unhistorical ?

Every single popular server online is not full historical you have airplanes from other dlcs that dont fit that timeline and so on, and yet you said theat people who play online like that are " minority of the minority. " So i ask, as i realy dont know, on what servers you play that is full historical you got picture that major part of online players are for historical play only, to me from what i see that is not true in practice.

So again you dont need BoN if your fighter player to be able to play on online missions on it, and again why buy BoN if your fighter player for axis when you can just use airplanes from other DLCs or collector airplanes for mutch cheaper price and have historical planset for missions youll encounter on most popular servers online where major amount of players play and have no problem with bendings of airplane types so all DLCs owners can play on most missions.

Edited June 16, 2020 by CountZero

[Eisenfaustus]

1 hour ago, CountZero said:

why buy BoN if your fighter player for axis

Maybe because you belong to the presumed majority that prefers SP and want to play a career over Normandy?