4.007 DM

[NO.20_W_M_Thomson]

Well I'm at 100% at losing my controls, every fight I get into.This is not fun man not fun at all. 

[US103_Baer]

4 hours ago, unreasonable said:

Two went down, without shedding wings, after  a fairly small number of hits (probably ~15-20 and ~ 10-20). One might have not been hit at all by one pass, but was seen inflames later (?).  Does any of this refute the FC DM?

 

It certainly doesn't line up with our recent experiences of shooting down Fokkers online

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

Edited June 14, 2020 by US103_Baer

[Troutlaw]

5 hours ago, unreasonable said:

You are completely wrong about that. I find them very interesting, but I do not see what point they are supposed to be making. Or are they just for information?

 

I posted these here to show what we're working with. To show what kind of information you can get out of these reports/docs. I'll have a huge amount of data compiled exactly what you did but with 4 squadrons. Just working through the last squadron. 

Edited June 14, 2020 by Ricky_Recon

[unreasonable]

17 hours ago, unreasonable said:

 

[Talking about landing without elevator or rudder control.]

 

Might try it on my next mission.

 

FYI landing without rudder or elevator remarkably easy in FC Dr.1. Flew 20km back from the lines like that and landed after a long approach like a 747 - only mishap was breaking prop on touch down as you cannot three point.   Stayed upright and not even much ground loop.

 

Trick is throttle control - 850 rpm gets level flight hands off at 1km, (on my HOTAS at least), reducing to 800 and below using mixture control allows you to descend without the nose dropping very much. Wide aileron turns still easy enough. 

[J2_Bidu]

17 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

FYI landing without rudder or elevator remarkably easy in FC Dr.1.

 

Now a Bristol on enemy side with no ailerons and no rudder gets interesting.

 

Sure, I tried to get back using the throttle by going full when heading W (yes I was going in circles) and cutting when faced E... (hint: this doesn't work).

[unreasonable]

Was your rudder actually jammed off centre? Some other damage? Just tried the FII in QMB and had no difficulty maintaining direction or making very wide turns with aileron only.  What was harder was keeping the nose up or level while descending at low speed, even with stab max nose up. It is nothing like as tail heavy as the Dr.1    I found an airfield, flew to it - but touched down too fast and broke the gear, but otherwise unhurt.  

[J2_Bidu]

22 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

Was your rudder actually jammed off centre? Some other damage?

 

No, I just couldn't move it. Adding the lack of ailerons,  I was stuck in a turn with no directional control...

[unreasonable]

9 minutes ago, J2_Bidu said:

 

No, I just couldn't move it. Adding the lack of ailerons,  I was stuck in a turn with no directional control...

 

Whoops!  Sorry misread your post - lack of ailerons or rudder!

Yes I see that would be tricky. I would signal to the gunner to get out onto the upper wing to get the plane level.    

[JGr2/J5_Klugermann]

18 hours ago, Ricky_Recon said:

Examples of what Larner and I are having to look through.

 

 

 

You wouldn't have to deal with that if you were a Feldwebel.

7 hours ago, NO.20_W_M_Thomson said:

Well I'm at 100% at losing my controls, every fight I get into.This is not fun man not fun at all. 

 

I'm sure it is for your opponent tho

[J2_Bidu]

2 hours ago, unreasonable said:

 

Whoops!  Sorry misread your post - lack of ailerons or rudder!

Yes I see that would be tricky. I would signal to the gunner to get out onto the upper wing to get the plane level.    

 

It's been done before (I see you also heard... he he)

Edited June 14, 2020 by J2_Bidu

[NO.20_W_M_Thomson]

1 hour ago, J5_Klugermann said:

I'm sure it is for your opponent tho

Is it?  No game in that. Might as well just have one side and we all fly D7's against the ai. 

[DakkaDakkaDakka]

11 hours ago, NO.20_W_M_Thomson said:

Well I'm at 100% at losing my controls, every fight I get into.This is not fun man not fun at all. 

 

Yeah I've been flying Entente all morning and it's the same. I also had my wings tear off at about 2G load.

Flying as Central, all you have to do is spray at the opponent and their plane will either have the wings tear off the first time they put any amount of load, or one or more of their control surfaces will stop responding, or both.

It's taken what should be a skill-based experience and turned it into Yahtzee or Candy Land. It's not even a "negative play experience" it's a "non play experience"

 

I think the Entente squadrons are being very highly respectful here, they could and perhaps should rightfully be up in arms.

Edited June 14, 2020 by DakkaDakkaDakka

[Troutlaw]

To be fair, the albatros and halberstadts are a joke, just as much if not more than any other plane.

[DakkaDakkaDakka]

True the 4.007 DM changes affect all of the planes, not just Entente. Cumulatively 4.006 - 4.007 has taken a neat dogfighting simulator and completely transformed it into RNG. Even if these changes were realistic (which ample evidence suggests they are not), they are not fun. And fun comes first when it comes to digital entertainments.

 

I'd held off getting back into Flying Circus while waiting for all the planes and map to be ready, looks like I can go away again because there's nothing to do here, when every encounter results in a diceroll. I want to dogfight and maneuver and have something besides whoever spammed the most bullets at the other's tail determine the outcome.

[Zooropa_Fly]

31 minutes ago, DakkaDakkaDakka said:

turned it into Yahtzee

 

To be fair, Yahtzee is a game of incredibly high skill.

[HagarTheHorrible]

Excuse my ignorance, but what the F is RNG ?

[J5_Adam]

Random Number Generator

 

[NO.20_W_M_Thomson]

16 minutes ago, DakkaDakkaDakka said:

I'd held off getting back into Flying Circus while waiting for all the planes and map to be ready, looks like I can go away again because there's nothing to do here, when every encounter results in a diceroll. I want to dogfight and maneuver and have something besides whoever spammed the most bullets at the other's tail determine the outcome.

That's a shame, Was looking forward to flying with you sometime like the old days. But I don't blame you 1 bit, 

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

43 minutes ago, DakkaDakkaDakka said:

I want to dogfight and maneuver and have something besides whoever spammed the most bullets at the other's tail determine the outcome.

 

Well you could have done this (and still can at some times of day) in RoF all this time for free.  Sadly, the community around this niche setting for flight sims is small, prone to tantrums, and to some degree- self destructive.  Right now it looks like this game is on the same path as the previous one.  Hopefully the devs deal with this control damage issue though- because right now it feels like we have the control damage we should have if we were being hit with WW2-era (explosive) ammunition.

 

Of course it could be worse.  You think what's going on here right now is bad- imagine what it would look like if they nerfed the camel.  ?

Edited June 14, 2020 by US63_SpadLivesMatter

[Cynic_Al]

51 minutes ago, DakkaDakkaDakka said:

I think the Entente squadrons are being very highly respectful here, they could and perhaps should rightfully be up in arms.

 

What arms would you say they have at their disposal?  After all the discussion that's taken place, I doubt a stiffly-worded memo to the devs will have much impact.

[HagarTheHorrible]

5 minutes ago, US63_SpadLivesMatter said:

 

Well you could have done this (and still can at some times of day) in RoF all this time for free.  Sadly, the community around this niche setting for flight sims is small, prone to tantrums, and to some degree- self destructive.  Right now it looks like this game is on the same path as the previous one.

 

You think what's going on here right now is bad- imagine what it would look like if they nerfed the camel.  ?

 

Actually,. everyone was pretty happy before 4.005.  Then they introduced some dodgy probability equations that, on balance, are probably wrong (in hindsight, they probably should have run some probability tests on their probability tests) , without checking to see if it stacked up in the place where it counts, MP, 

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Yeah, people were pretty happy.  Whether that happiness was based on realistic simulation or not is up for debate.  Take it up with the devs- maybe one of your classic titanic forum posts will finally sway them.  For now, they seem to think what they have now better simulates reality (assuming they tested it).  As I said, I hopped on with a few friends and it seems like control damage is occurring at the same rate as when we throw 20mm at each other.

 

I hope you're successful; because if you can get them to move on this, maybe they'll rethink their decision about not doing Pacific due to the available information not allowing them to model to their "standards".

 

If you're not though, I hope that people can put it aside and try to have fun.  I'd certainly like for this game to still be around when I get around to having more time to fly.

Edited June 14, 2020 by US63_SpadLivesMatter

[J5_Gamecock]

1 hour ago, US63_SpadLivesMatter said:

Right now it looks like this game is on the same path as the previous one. 

At least ROF had a few good years before it was killed.....  I don't think FC will survive another update.

[BMA_Hellbender]

1 hour ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

without checking to see if it stacked up in the place where it counts, MP, 

 

I do share the sentiment that the previous few updates were not good for multiplayer, but to claim that this is the place "where it counts" is plain wrong.

 

The target audience remains customers of the main WWII portion of the game who also take an interest in WWI — and most of them do not fly multiplayer. In fact most players do not fly much at all. They buy a module, spend some time with the planes in the quick mission builder, maybe try a single player campaign, and then move on to something else until another module is released and the cycle repeats. Jason has said so himself. We've always known that Flying Circus' underlying systems would update along with the main game. What we have now is about as in-engine accurate as it can be. Whether this matches historical reports or is fun or conducive to properly balanced multiplayer dogfights is a completely different topic and mostly doesn't matter.

 

Before 4.005 multiplayer FC already wasn't selling enough copies, nothing was magically going to change that. Perhaps maybe if some more planes and maps are released. At least now there are two single player campaigns available which might attract some more players and give us a reasonable chance at FC2.

 

There's no need to point fingers or lay the blame anywhere. Much like it was back in 1918, PvP dogfighting should be a young men's game, and the constant influx of new players to base the game around PvP simply isn't there to make that happen. If the interest were there, then you'd have the current generation of Fortnite, Counter-Strike and Battlefield players in here walking all over us old farts. At the very least the War Thunder crowd.

 

 

It's not all hopeless, though, there's a new generation of flightsims arriving on consoles with FS20201(?), and even EA is about to announce a new Star Wars game that MIGHT just be about dogfighting (we'll see tomorrow):

 

 

 

In the meantime we can keep the interest in WWI dogfighting alive within our small little niche and see where it goes from here.

Edited June 14, 2020 by J5_Hellbender

[ST_Catchov]

2 hours ago, US63_SpadLivesMatter said:

imagine what it would look like if they nerfed the camel.

 

  ….  please do not joke about such matters SLM

 

Haha he's just joking Andrey …. nyet, it's western humour. Hahahah  …. {gulp}

 

 

 

 

[No.23_Triggers]

2 hours ago, US63_SpadLivesMatter said:

 Hopefully the devs deal with this control damage issue though- because right now it feels like we have the control damage we should have if we were being hit with WW2-era (explosive) ammunition.

Spot on. 

 

1 hour ago, J5_Gamecock said:

At least ROF had a few good years before it was killed.....  I don't think FC will survive another update.

Also spot on ? 

[Guest deleted@83466]

1 hour ago, J5_Gamecock said:

At least ROF had a few good years before it was killed.....  I don't think FC will survive another update.

 

The damage model will not be revisited until morale improves.

?

[Zooropa_Fly]

I agree about the pilot models.

Apart for the occasional glimpse at the ugly mug of my rear gunner, I never see pilots or whatever they're dressed in.

I'd certainly rather see time spent on other things.

[No.23_Gaylion]

Well I for one am pissed that she's wearing the pattern 1943 jacket with the pattern 1948 gloves AND I WILL NOT REST UNTIL THIS ERROR IS RECTIFIED!

[DakkaDakkaDakka]

8 minutes ago, catchov said:

The real sad thing about it is (personal opinion only) that the devs don't care if FC dies or not. It's just not a priority, more an afterthought to suck in WWI nuts.

 

Once upon a time, it was those WWI nuts who largely made Battle of Stalingrad possible.

 

That's a long time ago now, and maybe the devs have forgotten but we oldschool RoF players - who spent literally hundreds on planes, and backed BoS as soon as it was announced - have not.

 

At least with the (nearly) dead servers in RoF you can still have some fun - here, it's just a ghost town.

[BMA_Hellbender]

There is no profitable market for a WWI flightsim, especially not one which is best experienced on 20 years out of production hardware. The fact that we have this and at that price is nothing short of a miracle.

 

Now if you'll excuse me I'll go cry in a corner until someone releases a WWI subsim. No, 1914: Shells of Fury doesn't count. It gets points for having a wicked cool name, though.

[J2_Bidu]

 

3 hours ago, DakkaDakkaDakka said:

[...] e there's nothing to do here, when every encounter results in a diceroll. I want to dogfight and maneuver and have something besides whoever spammed the most bullets at the other's tail determine the outcome.

 

Tonight I flew both the SE5a and the DR1 happily. Sure, My DR1 took a LOT of damage. But this is what my SE5a looked like when Drookasi finally killed me:

 

 

I still had plenty of fun fighting for both sides.

Edited June 14, 2020 by J2_Bidu

[DakkaDakkaDakka]

Drookasi fired one burst, hit my elevator control cable with approximately 1-2 bullets and that was that for my flight.  That came on the heels of multiple similar instances, flying in a Camel, a SE5a, a Dr.1 and an Albatros.

 

It was disappointing to say the least. The dying I don't care about; the feeling like I'm not even an active participant in the proceedings was the part that made it feel so bad.

 

But anyways, enough spewing. I'll go spend my time and etc. elsewhere.

Edited June 14, 2020 by DakkaDakkaDakka

[NO.20_W_M_Thomson]

1 hour ago, J5_Hellbender said:

It's not all hopeless, though, there's a new generation of flightsims arriving on consoles with FS20201

Would be interesting to see if they build another combat flight sim? 

2 minutes ago, DakkaDakkaDakka said:

The dying I don't care about; the feeling like I'm not even an active participant in the proceedings was the part that made it feel so bad.

Pretty much how I felt flying the fast few days, even against ai. 1 bust and I'm rendered useless, flying in circles  waiting for the fatal shot to the head. BY THE F'ING AI.

[ST_Catchov]

8 minutes ago, DakkaDakkaDakka said:

Once upon a time, it was those WWI nuts who largely made Battle of Stalingrad possible.

 

That's a long time ago now, and maybe the devs have forgotten but we oldschool RoF players - who spent literally hundreds on planes, and backed BoS as soon as it was announced - have not.

 

Of course. I agree. I was one of those WWI nuts (and remain so) who bought almost everything that RoF offered. And then it was dropped and the hard-earned went straight into WWII. Pretty cunning.

[Guest deleted@83466]

22 minutes ago, catchov said:

 

Of course. I agree. I was one of those WWI nuts (and remain so) who bought almost everything that RoF offered. And then it was dropped and the hard-earned went straight into WWII. Pretty cunning.

 

The state of some issues in Flying Circus notwithstanding, damage model or whatever, stop with the idea that they owe you something for the money you spent on Rise of Flight other than what you got in Rise of Flight.  You purchased the content, you got the content, and you got your money's worth out of it, didn't you?  I don't recall reading in the EULA for RoF that it was a forever-sim that prevented the developers from developing other things. (actually I don't recall reading the EULA at all, but you know what I mean! ?)

Edited June 14, 2020 by SeaSerpent

[Tycoon]

2 hours ago, J5_Hellbender said:

 The fact that we have this and at that price is nothing short of a miracle.

Joan of Arc was a miracle, Dunkirk was a miracle, Moses parting the red sea was a miracle, a repackaged 12 year old game with a price tag of 80 dollars is not a miracle. 

Edited June 15, 2020 by Tycoon

[NO.20_W_M_Thomson]

1 hour ago, Tycoon said:

Joan of Arc was a miracle, Dunkirk was a miracle, Moses parting the red sea was a miracle, a repackaged 12 year old game with a price tag of 80 dollars is not a miracle. 

Lets hope for a miracle and they save the game.

[HagarTheHorrible]

It doesn’t need a miracle, just a little humility.  They just have to admit, as much to themselves as anybody, that if they make stuff up, however clever and sophisticated they might think it, that they can then pretend it is somehow cast iron, realistic, that’s the way it was.fact.  They aren’t (to quote somebody very clever) N.A.S.A.. Hell, it’s hard enough getting hard facts about the simple things, such as speed and RPM and turn, need I go on ?

 

The whole reason that FC WAS so much fun was because (it would appear accidentally) that it had managed to encapsulate what was special, and probably unique, about WW1 air combat, DOGFIGHTING IS FUN.  The last three updates have (to clever for their own good) damaged that unique-ness, turning it into something more akin to WW2 air combat, but without the advantages.

 

If the Developers want to save this little “niche” then they need to re-discover that truism and build the game accordingly.  Add as many updates as they want, tweak it to death, but they must ALWAYS keep an eye on the main event ‘DOGFIGHTING IS FUN’ and if updates damage that CORE reason for being then they should be adjusted until they do enhance the dogfighting experience or are quietly binned .

[BMA_Hellbender]

5 hours ago, Tycoon said:

Joan of Arc was a miracle, Dunkirk was a miracle, Moses parting the red sea was a miracle, a repackaged 12 year old game with a price tag of 80 dollars is not a miracle. 

 

The new Call of Duty has Dunkirk, about the same level of realism as Battlefield 1 (no wingshedding there).

 

Joan of Arc appears to have had a rather accurate depiction in video games circa 2007. Look at those mighty fine breast-

plates.

 

 

 

 

As for parting the Red Sea, well set my bush on fire and worship me a golden calf, there is a Moses simulator!

 

Actually it's a whole holy operating system.

 

 

Now I feel cheated we never got FokkerOS. According to spar size it would never crash.