Suggestion to buy a new Joystick without dead zones

[Jack_Immondizia]

Hello everyone. I kindly ask you for a suggestion to buy a new Joystick.

 

What is important to me in a joystick:

- totally devoid of dead zone (fundamental requirement).
- which has at least a 12 or 14 bit resolution.
- which costs less than 300 euro (but if you know more expensive joysticks without dead zone, tell me).

 

 This is an example of what I mean:

 

what i hate (DEADZONE??

 

what I would like (NO DEADZONE, but a linear movement to the center):

 

 

My joystick T16000M FCS hotas that left me permanently yesterday, was excellent in precision for its price (14 effective bits), almost perfect after some modifications (I had removed that stupid internal central spring and replaced with a less hard spring on the outside ).
But it had a small flaw when I centered both the X and Y axes, I noticed a slight central dead zone. But if I tilted the X axis slightly to the side, the dead zone in the Y axis vanished as if by magic, this infuriated me: why ruin a Joystick with this ridiculous firmware-induced dead zone? if I wanted a dead zone I would put it quietly by an software, no? In flight sims the dead zone is a killer to the precision, it should be abolished by law in a Joystick!

 

So going back to the Joystick that I would like to buy, I looked at several Joysticks that seem excellent for quality price, but no shop and no official review clarifies whether or not they have the hated dead zone.

 

I excluded the Logitech and Saitek series because I read that they have predefined dead zones, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I had in mind to buy a Gladiator K, but I have not read anywhere if it has no dead zone or how many bits of resolution it has.

 

I have seen Warthog, (too expensive, but still I take it into consideration) which seems an excellent stick for precision (it seems to me 16 effective bits), but also here I have read discordant opinions on the dead zone, some say which it has, others not... but if it has, however beautiful or precise it may be, I don't buy it.

 

Please enlighten me, or else I'll buy another t16000M to be on the safe side.
Sorry my bad english.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Jack_Immondizia

[Nate_2112]

I've been using a CH Products Fighterstick for over 15 years with zero issues.Never noticed any deadzone at all.Definitely a well built product.

[Jack_Immondizia]

31 minutes ago, Nate_2112 said:

I've been using a CH Products Fighterstick for over 15 years with zero issues.Never noticed any deadzone at all.Definitely a well built product.

Thanks to answered me. Have you ever tested it with some software (like DXTweak2 or similar) to find out if it has any dead zones?

Your know her bit resolution?

Is this: Fighterstick?

[Nate_2112]

Yeah that's it.

Never tested it other than the IL2 1946 setup that showed center,pitch/yaw movment with a square for adjustment of sensitivity.But it does not have any deadzones in that.It has 8 bits (256 points of resolution).

[Sokol1]

Joysticks with minimal (mechanic) deadzone will be VKB Gunfighter base, VirPil WarBRD and T50CM2 bases, due their all metal CAM center mechanism, bearings in pivots, but will surpass your price tag.

 

Gladiator K (that use the same Gladiator Mk.II base) may require a small amount of software deadzone, because their gimbal has damper grease in groove and soft springs, what make difficult grip always return for "0" center. See this test I did with Gladiator Mk.II:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zan4QidEDnE&lc=Ugz9P0yShjK5AlzY2TF4AaABAg

 

Gladiator gimbal mechanics is very similar to CH gimbals, but due the damper grease don't have the "clunck" (tactile and audible) center of CH gimbal

 

For VKB joysticks you can set set controller resolution from 10 to 14 bits using VKB DevCfg config tool.

VKB engineer say that resolution above 12 bits in desktop joystick, due their limited angle movement is just marketing, but they include 14 bits option for please the gammers.

 

BTW - In matter of electronics, CH sticks are obsolete, use the same USB controller since 1999, with 8 bits resolution (256 points), besides use conventional potentiometer in X,Y axes, modern joystick use contaless sensor.

 

Warthog base mechanics ("ball joint" gimbal) is similar to T.16000M, with better construction, but is all plastic and have stiction issues, are cases of gimbal "articulation sphere" broken due "wrong" hands.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Sokol1

[VR-DriftaholiC]

WarBRD. I like mine with the no center cams. Might be a touch out of the budget but it's far and away the best. T50CM2 has some non linearity issues, I sold mine for a WarBRD. It's dead zone free and even more so when I removed the tiny software dead zone and smoothing. 

Edited June 7, 2020 by VR-DriftaholiC

[Jack_Immondizia]

8 hours ago, Nate_2112 said:

Yeah that's it.

Never tested it other than the IL2 1946 setup that showed center,pitch/yaw movment with a square for adjustment of sensitivity.But it does not have any deadzones in that.It has 8 bits (256 points of resolution).

Thanks, but it has low resolution for me.

 

6 hours ago, Sokol1 said:

Gladiator K (that use the same Gladiator Mk.II base) may require a small amount of software deadzone, because their gimbal has damper grease in groove and light springs, what make difficult grip always return for "0" center.

Thanks, maybe Gladiator Mk2 is what I want. If you're sure it doesn't have any dead zones (both hardware and software), that's exactly what I want.
For me it is not important that return perfectly to the center, but that it has no interruption when I move the axis gradually in the center, especially the Y axis (pitch).

 

This is an example of what I mean:

 

what i hate (DEADZONE?

 

what I would like (NO DEADZONE, but a linear movement to the center):

 

Since you own the Gladiator, could you please test with a slow and gradual movement (like in these 2 GIFs) to ensure that it actually has no dead zone? I would like to be on the safe side before buying it. THANKS.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Jack_Immondizia

[VR-DriftaholiC]

I'll do the WarBRD for anyone interested. Just gotta double check every screw and bolt as they sometimes forget to tighten everything

 

[Nate_2112]

Well,I'm glad I saw this post.I had never heard of VKB brand.Just checked out the website...

I think I need to upgrade soon.They look awesome.?

[Sokol1]

6 hours ago, Jack_Immondizia said:

Since you own the Gladiator, could you please test with a slow and gradual movement (like in these 2 GIFs) to ensure that it actually has no dead zone?

 

See if this video help. If not say what change.

The upper screen is from VKB T-Rudder pedal, I include for show difference in return to center of CAM mechanism (T-Rudder) compared with "pincer" mechanism with grease damper of Gladiator Mk.II.

 

 

1 hour ago, Nate_2112 said:

Well,I'm glad I saw this post.I had never heard of VKB brand.Just checked out the website...

I think I need to upgrade soon.They look awesome.?

 

 

BTW - Leave a comment in this VKB Gladiator K video, may you have luck and win one.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fGeewvyWlE

 

[Jack_Immondizia]

31 minutes ago, Sokol1 said:

 

See if this video help. If not say what change.

The upper screen is from VKB T-Rudder pedal, I include for show difference in return to center of CAM mechanism (T-Rudder) compared with "pincer" mechanism with grease damper of Gladiator Mk.II.

 

 

 

 

BTW - Leave a comment in this VKB Gladiator K video, may you have luck and win one.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fGeewvyWlE

 

Thanks Sokol1, but in reality I can't understand much from your video, because the movement you make for the Y axis is too fast. To understand if there is a dead zone you should move the joystick slowly in the center as in the 2 examples I posted before.

[dburne]

2 hours ago, Nate_2112 said:

Well,I'm glad I saw this post.I had never heard of VKB brand.Just checked out the website...

I think I need to upgrade soon.They look awesome.?

 

VKB make awesome sticks, I am especially fond of the Gunfighter with MCG Pro grip. Use mine center mounted with an extension and love it.

You can see my review of the latest Gunfighter - the MK III in the link in my sig.

[Nate_2112]

1 hour ago, dburne said:

 

VKB make awesome sticks, I am especially fond of the Gunfighter with MCG Pro grip. Use mine center mounted with an extension and love it.

You can see my review of the latest Gunfighter - the MK III in the link in my sig.

Thanks!

I really like the looks of the WWII Gunfighter edition.Gotta start saving up $$$...

[Sokol1]

5 hours ago, Jack_Immondizia said:

Thanks Sokol1, but in reality I can't understand much from your video, because the movement you make for the Y axis is too fast. To understand if there is a dead zone you should move the joystick slowly in the center as in the 2 examples I posted before.

 

OK I will try moving the stick just around the center.

 

Anyway in DView screen, the black triangle show the stick movement send for games and the red triangle show the stick movement send for computer (raw values), and both move equals, what indicates no deadzone.

 

What the program capture the animated .GIF you post?

[Jack_Immondizia]

14 hours ago, Sokol1 said:

What the program capture the animated .GIF you post?

You mean the program I used to make GIFs? I used photoshop and then I published it on GIF Maker, but you could also use only GIF Maker online, I preferred to do it myself because I wanted 60fps.
I await your answer to confirm if this joystick has a dead zone or not.
Thank you Sokol1 for all the help you offering me.

14 hours ago, Sokol1 said:

Anyway in DView screen, the black triangle show the stick movement send for games and the red triangle show the stick movement send for computer (raw values), and both move equals, what indicates no deadzone.

The program I used for the test is DXTweet2, this small and simple software is able to change the linearity of the joystick axes, without installing virtual devices like VJoy.
Just like in Dview, In DXTweet2 the red triangle indicates the original linearity of the axis, while the black one indicates any changes to the axis, if they scroll equally it only shows that you have not made changes to the linearity of the axis, not that there is no dead zone. 

Edited June 8, 2020 by Jack_Immondizia
I want to add an answer to a comment

[Sokol1]

DXTweak2 and DView test is very similar.

 

In DXTweak2/64.

I try move the stick just around center, in end of video making small circular movements.

For me any movement make in joystick is send for game, so no deadzone.

 

BTW - I record DXTweak2 window with this online software: https://screenapp.io/#/

Edited June 8, 2020 by Sokol1

[Nate_2112]

Thanks to some extra Bday money...I pulled the trigger on this one. ?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0813ZSGRN/ref=cm_sw_r_other_apa_i_ylM3Eb164NVD1

[Jack_Immondizia]

1 hour ago, Sokol1 said:

Il test DXTweak2 e DView è molto simile.

 

In DXTweak2 / 64.

Provo a muovere la levetta appena al centro, alla fine del video, facendo piccoli movimenti circolari.

Per me ogni movimento fatto nel joystick viene inviato per il gioco, quindi nessuna zona morta.

Yes, great! seem that dead zone don't exist! It was just the test I wanted, thanks again. I was thinking of taking the gladiator K, hoping that it has no dead zone, like this, but the fact is that I can't find it anywhere, I live in Italy, and on the European vkb site it is not available. Not even the gladiator mk2.

[Sokol1]

Gladiator K was announced just in the last week, see this Reddit post about ETA in flightsicontrols (VKB seller for EU).

https://www.reddit.com/r/hotas/comments/gyxkn4/update_on_the_vkb_gladiatork_for_europe/

When available you need by "triggerhappy" because VKB stocks traditionally last few days,  in some cases hours. ?

 

 

Edited June 9, 2020 by Sokol1

[Jack_Immondizia]

On 6/9/2020 at 4:23 AM, Sokol1 said:

Gladiator K was announced just in the last week, see this Reddit post about ETA in flightsicontrols (VKB seller for EU).

https://www.reddit.com/r/hotas/comments/gyxkn4/update_on_the_vkb_gladiatork_for_europe/

When available you need by "triggerhappy" because VKB stocks traditionally last few days,  in some cases hours. ?

 

 

Hi Sokol1, sorry if I answer you now, but I wanted to tell you and thank you once again since I read this discussion in which you are participating:
https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=217671
and because I have a sidewinder forcefeedback 2, I chose to buy a bodnar card that I have already assembled and wired, and everything works great!
So I got rid of the deadzone, I got 12 bits of resolution and I also have the forcefeedback that I really appreciate, all for around 30 euro, shipping costs aside.
So the Gladiator can wait for now.

Edited July 17, 2020 by Jack_Immondizia