Why we need AI in online wars.

[Panzerlang]

 

 I wouldn't even say that the average "skill" of those players is above the average skill of the AI in BoS (which might have trouble maneuvering correctly, but atleast is pretty accurate).

 

Ooooooooh!!!

 

[Bearcat]

The operative word to keep in mind throughout this .. discussion is... OPTIONS

[DD_Arthur]

Hmm, too many personal attacks in here.   They don't seem to add anything to the discussion, so let's turn up the effort to avoid them, please.  

 

I think it's safe to say there's room for both preferences, with or without AI.   Personally,  I enjoy a mix of human and AI on both sides.   It keeps the environment target-rich, the AI serves as a ready mission objective, confuses human pilots, draws the them low and get's them into bad situations.  The AI pilots add ambience with a frequency that's hard to achieve in human-only events.  

 

There were many times in RoF that I thought for sure I was shooting at AI and it turned out to be a human pilot.   There were many times, just the opposite.  It's all fun.

 

Spot on!

[dannyGrim]

Personally I'm all for some kind of ai element being present on the servers like many people have said it does add to the immersion. 

in the clod ATAG server as someone mentioned already those ai bomber formations coming across are great. Often you'll see a 3-5 enemy fighters tagging along waiting for the poor sap to come get some easy kills (often me 2-3k above  )

 

The problem with human players is that their are always going to be a preference for fighters in any of the mp environments. If the sky is full of purely 109's/190's Yaks and LA5's Sure it'll be kind of fun but it's not reflecting the history so much is it? I Mean fighters were/always are there to protect the ground pounders. ground pounders. Occasionally you'll find one or two human bombers doing their solo kamikaze runs but come on... having 3-4 ai fly alongside you on your kamikaze run? that would be cool and more immersive... having ai fighters to chew when servers are a little less populated just adds to the experience not degrades from it and provides more variety of planes in the air. 

 

As for the whole 'there were no drones flying argument' come on this is a video 

Edited May 10, 2014 by AEFdannyGrim

[CreepiJim]

As Loft said, there is only a small community of simmers. And with all the different games, the server population is even more divided. Not everyone likes the setting, the era or the fighting. There are people out there that enjoy a challenge and dogfighting. Look at the other russian air combat game. In the simulator mode, you see the same faces all over again each match. AI does not help if the AI is just target practise for the fighter and an imminent and unnatural enemy for the bombers.

 

What this game needs to attract players is indeed depth. But not by aritificial intelligence in the air. It needs to be some sort of persistent battlefield where people can do missions online and have the occasional foe, regardless of time and date. That requires ground targets and missions to destroy them, escort the bombers/ground attackers and at some point the battle is over and the mission restarts. As you said in your post, Siggi, fighting the same guys with the same tactics each and every time gets old fast, especially for those that are not old veterans (like myself). So either many squads play at the same time to have some sort of organized mission going on (and escorts/cover for the new players) or some incentitive to play has to be present. I don't like rewards or statistics, as these lead to mere ego trips and achievement hunts, so it has to be some sort of a career mode, where you can advance something to keep you playing. I never played RoF, so I don't know their system, anyway not many people will stick to a game that does not offer something unique and long lasting. Especially in times of fast developments of casual games, that last for some month and are then replaced by new titles.

 

Since BoS won't be "the" new WW2 aircraft sim, it might only be a intermission for the sim crowd until a new game is released or existing games have been fixed/changed.

 

I for myself had hopes for at least some features that other games lack, so I am kind of torn between posing the ultimate target in a dogfighting game or find a way to enjoy myself in doing ground attacks despite the ridiculous life expectency of a Ju-87. In the current 30 minute dogfight mission I rage quit, not because of getting shot down...the time limit and abrupt restart is a pain in the rear. On top of that the ground targets, especially the airfield AA(A) do not seem to be vulnarable to bullets and the mission goal to destroy enemy targets does not work. So I feel useless to even participate. That brought me back to flying in other games. I started flying in WW2 games about half a year ago with WT full real, then moved on to CloD TF4 because I missed realism and authenticity in the first title and hoped BoS would be a great game that is not CloD in complexity (I don't like clickable cockpits, but I like all instruments to be working as they should) but more realistic and authentic than WT sim battles. Now it is up the the development of interesting and long lasting multiplayer battles that have no instant respawn and some depth and authenticity to them.

 

AI aircraft (and more importantly ground units), should not fill out missing player numbers or be eye candy. They should be a main part of the gameplay. Something like "A formation of (AI) bombers is heading to the enemy industrial complex to bomb the factories, your goal is to intercept/escort" The player then jumps in either as one of these bombers, an escort aircraft or a scrambled interceptor. Dogfights will take place but the ultimate goal is still the destruction of these factories. The mission will only end after the successful bombing or after an enemy raid on the bomber airfield or something like that.

 

This would not be possible without AI if the player numbers are low or the players do not care for doing missions, though.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 Well placed or triggered AI is a good thing to MP, especially co-op missions. Let's say there is a lone AI recon plane that succeeds in it's mission and "gets data" which is added to the map, revealing new possible targets or verifying there is nothing worth bombing, BDA or whatever. AI could do that as not many players want to fly those missions etc. Flexible use of AI adds more than detracts IMHO.

[Livai]

I think that

 

--> We need AI that can be replaced by humans like you can see at Red Orchestra Series

 

All can be a Ace Pilot if you have TrackIR and all other Hardware what is need to play at all Difficult Settings and someone who doesnt have this Hardware is a easy target.

[JG26Hans_J_Marseille]

Does anyone believe there would have been any aces if the vast majority of pilots had been veterans or aces in their skill before they met in combat? But this is how it is online. And it reduces nearly every fight to one of the machine instead of the pilot. Skill being approximately equal it's the guy with the Spitfire who'll beat the guy with the 109 every single time. There is no human flaw to find and no way to beat the machine. AI levels the playing field and allows historically realistic outcomes to develop. Most aces got their kills against rookies and average pilots, even when those pilots were flying the superior machine, because those pilots didn't know how, or were too scared, to fly them to their limits.

 

There is no such thing as an online war where there are only humans vs humans; they are, by functional definition, nothing but dog-fight servers.

 

Good point +1, i agree

[AbortedMan]

Defeatist attitude and needless worrying, imo.

 

Everyone playing online is far from an ace in skill...if that's your belief, then there's a lot more issues going on than the lack of AI that you need to take care of before/while playing video games.

[=69.GIAP=STENKA69GIAP]

Ooops, I might appear as a killjoy here to an animated debate, but if you want AI in online wars, just get on with it and do it. The technology is there.

 

Personally I use AI in some campaigns but not in others, it depends on the scenario and balance between opposing sides.

 

You have that choice.

[AbortedMan]

Ooops, I might appear as a killjoy here to an animated debate, but if you want AI in online wars, just get on with it and do it. The technology is there.

 

Personally I use AI in some campaigns but not in others, it depends on the scenario and balance between opposing sides.

 

You have that choice.

Heh, exactly what I said in this thread a couple pages back, but everybody but one person was too busy rabble rousing to see it.

[-NW-ChiefRedCloud]

I guess there are or should be exceptions to AI online. And we at New Wings find them useful (along with training aids) for the Brand Spanking New Pilot to learn by. And to a new comer they can be challenging. To even a simi experienced pilot they are predictable but still fun to shoot down for fun. And yes it is noted that Flight aids CAN be a problem if a pilot does not ween themselves off them. We explain this up front. As a matter of just a personal opinion I see a need for AI pilots/aircraft into the future both off and online. I can recall planet an enjoyable hour or so in the old IL-2 1946 playing coop with friends online.

 

So different tastes, different opinions, and just differences in general, they are what makes the world go around.

[senseispcc]

I say "YES" to coop mission against ai/np ennemies. 

[DrDag]

I say "YES" to coop mission against ai/np ennemies. 

 

+1, yes please!

As long as there is a choice for the people who run the servers and do the missions. The fitting sandbox for everyone, with AI or no AI.

[[JG2]R7_Blackadder]

Can't see why there should e no formations and recon planes and secondary flights in multiplayer: AI is necessary for MP to be intredasting.

 

If you are expecting some poor fella to jump into his 111 in the middle of brawling fighters then you are totally wrong about human nature.

[26Baaron]

Totally agree with Siggi, human against human is great but if you fly with a squad as i do, a flight or two of AI bombers gives the whole squad something to focus on as a group, surely this could be done with humans you say, but as mentioned earlier, there is not such a great flux of bomber pilots as wanna be ace,s on alot of servers, take a look at the current BOS expert servers etc, mostly 109,s and Laggs, also AI formations are programmed to fly as a group which is also seldom seen by human pilot,s, so unfortunately AI is for me much closer to historical accuracy, certainly in the BOB, and im sure 111s attacking Stalingrad, this is just my opinion though if anyone can direct me to any servers with a constant stream of human flown bomber formations i would love to check it out, other than organised campaigns i dont know of any, and the fun for me is the gunnery and the chase, nothing worse than a million cubic miles of sky with a few scattered targets when your flying as a squad, you need something substancial to attack, take alook at ATAG server 1 now, you'll see six spits chasing a single 109 as there are so few bomber formations to go for. anyways thats my ranting done.

 enjoying this game so far.

[4./JG53_Wotan]

AI is needed if you want a more historic and immersive air combat experience. Almost nothing in a "fight to the death" dogfight server reflects reality. I am not saying these types of servers can't be fun. However, without AI very rarely will there be organized flights of bombers, or fighters, trying to accomplish an "objective" with the intent to survive. If AI flights are available these can be scripted into the mission / server for those that want that type of experience. A lot people do enjoy "Dead is Dead" and many enjoy flying organized sorties with their friends and squad mates.

 

Wotan

[Capt_Hook]

Defeatist attitude and needless worrying, imo.

 

Everyone playing online is far from an ace in skill...if that's your belief, then there's a lot more issues going on than the lack of AI that you need to take care of before/while playing video games.

But the point they're making is that compared to historical reality everyone playing online IS an ace in skill.  The simple, inescapable fact that sim pilots can just hit 'refly' makes that unavoidable.  Even new pilots with only a few hours of playing under their belt will fly maneuvers that only the greatest aces of yore would have attempted.

 

I remember a thread on the old 1C forums way back, not long after Pacific Fighters came out.  Someone had the excellent fortune to get a WWII P-38 pilot to try flying the sim, and even though the gentleman didn't have the best eyesight at that point he gave IL-2 good marks for FM realism, though he immediately sensed that twin-engine dynamics weren't modeled correctly.  The really telling thing, though, was when the 1C forum member took over and jumped into an online scenario to demonstrate competitive MP the vet asked him why he was flying the plane like he didn't want to come home.

[AceRevo]

PLEASE NO AI IN MULTIPLAYER! In War Thunder, theres plenty of games with AI in it and trust me, there is NOTHING fun in it compared to meeting a REAL pilot. 

Or are you complaining about AI in multiplayer becouse i didnt really get what u ment.. I havent got to play multiplayer and I have no idea how mp works at all... anyone wants to inlighten me please? 

 

Ive found this thread as I was searching the forum about the MP and I wonder, how does the MP work and how is it? Do you only get one life? Are the whole map in use, meaning you can chose which airfield to take off from and so on..? And theres no AI i hope..?? Please explain to me in detail if you got the time Much appreciated! 

[BlackDevil]

If I want to fly against AI, i fly SP. If I want to fly Against humans, i fly MP. Nothing more frustrating than dogfighting on MP and to recognize After the victory, it was only AI !

[BlackDevil]

...or human Bombers as we start experiencing on the syndicate Server.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

...or human Bombers as we start experiencing on the syndicate Server.

 

if you wanna fly bombers sucessfully, just hop into TS, and ask some fighters guys to cover you. I was asked a few times, even in chat, and i am always glad if i have a proper purpose. And i am by far not the only one.

[AceRevo]

I would also cover bombers if I get the call  

[Mikey]

I don't see why people are getting so hostile about AI...

i think the more planes the better.

more dynamic gameplay when there is ai with objectives and roles, if they finish their objective that affects the mission.

really quite simple...if you don't want ai you could just go to a server without.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Mikey420

[Gambit21]

If I want to fly against AI, i fly SP. If I want to fly Against humans, i fly MP. Nothing more frustrating than dogfighting on MP and to recognize After the victory, it was only AI !

Then you're not a mission oriented person - and that's fine.

With some of us it's about the mission - period. That might come with having killed this person, killed that person, and long over the online kill/ego thing.

We had plenty of AI in the CoOps back in the day, and the missions were much better for it.

[Zoring]

To the OP, I don't know if we are playing the same online game :D I would say 90% of the online players are making up the numbers, 8% are dangerious and 2% are the real killers.

 

We need a easy editor ideally to make fun scenarios, if you can have AI and moving vehicles (which you can in ROF) you can easily make good interesting maps.

[ARM505]

I  just finished reading Rudel's 'Stuka Pilot', and the most compelling thing that jumped out constantly was that he wouldn't have lasted a second vs online humans - he seemed to take it as a matter of routine that he would be able to successfully evade whatever fighters happened to be trying to stop him on the way to the target and back. He was quite dismissive of 99% of the Soviet pilots, and it sounds like he caused at least one ace to crash while this guy was chasing him. Online, what human fighter will let a Ju87 go without engaging (and more than likely killing), or make just one pass and go home?

 

No, reading the book just made me aware of how utterly unrealistic online combat simming is - you're going up against people who've had as much gunnery practice as they've had free time to put into it, who do not fear death even slightly, who receive brand new aircraft all the time, who have a wealth of online information to study from, who are intimately familiar with their oppositions aircraft (because they can fly them whenever they want!), who are sitting in a comfortable office chair after having a decent nights sleep, who are well fed (as are you, but anyway hopefully you see my point) etc etc........compare that to conditions at the front in WW2.....I would go so far as to say that if you want a realistic mission, you must have AI in some of the roles. Otherwise the numbers must be adjusted to unrealistic levels if you still want a decent game (ie bombers get murdered by fighters online, far more so than IRL, hence increase the bomber numbers if you still want a decent game - just an example).

 

I totally get the need for AI to have a decent game, and allow noobs/infrequent online players a chance to feel productive in online simming, and keep them engaged long enough. Who knows, maybe they stick around long enough to get some real online skill going.

[39bn_pavig]

Having played in an Arma3 realism clan for a while I can say that AI in multiplayer is definitely a good thing to have. It allows extremely intricate/complex co-op experiences to be created, and effectively doubles the number of units on the battlefield. For clans, which struggle at times to get enough players to commit to a certain time to run an operation, it means we can all play together as a cohesive unit and engage in much more immersive and realistic scenarios than are possible in a PVP setting. Good AI is required for the single player game, and if available certainly adds to the options for multiplayer. It is a different style of gaming to be sure, but I think worthwhile and fun.

[SvAF/F19_Klunk]

"I'm right and you're wrong."     "No, I'm right and you're wrong."

 

wow.

 

How about having the AI option available to the mission makers and server admins?

 

Then WE decide which servers to fly in.

 

+1

I would fly both

[SvAF/F19_Klunk]

My experience of AI after flying IL2 for over a decade, both  on so called dogfight servers and online wars, AND coops:

 

• You do not need AI  to create a somewhat "realistic scenario", What you need is clever designed missions, objective oriented, and pilots who actually like these kind of missions. Servers that come to mind are F16_Dedicated, Greatergreen, and the past few years; Spits vs 109, Zeke vs Wildcat
  and they were NOT empty!
   
• Servers with no AI are empty: just plain wrong: again look at the success of il2 1946 dog fight servers (objective oriented)
   
• Servers WITH AI are emtpy; just plain wrong: look at the modded versions of Il2 1946 dog fight servers  which could use AI (objective oriented)
   
• PvP is NOT ACE vs ACE. I would say that the diversity of "competence" is bigger amongst  human pilots than with using AI: what we need from AI is GOOD AI. IL2 1946 AI was really not very good; They were very predictable no matter how "good" they were". If we use AI we need them to be Indistinguishable from human pilots; we would need to make it hard to ID a plane as an AI or a HUMAN.
  Now when u saw/see a big bomber formation or a well organized fighter wing; it could only be ai... or SvAF
   
• In my opinion, the only really addition from AI is that, as mentioned before, we might gain more "organised" formations of both bombers and fighter wings which  of course increase the sensation of realism. And that is for many (included me) a big thing)

I would and will fly both.... what we have here in this thread is a variant of Monty  Python's "I would like to buy an argument"-scetch; especially tha part about "contradiction":)

Edited September 2, 2014 by SvAF_Klunk

[jaydee]

My experience of AI after flying IL2 for over a decade, both  on so called dogfight servers and online wars, AND coops:

 

• You do not need AI  to create a somewhat "realistic scenario", What you need is clever designed missions, objective oriented, and pilots who actually like these kind of missions. Servers that come to mind are F16_Dedicated, Greatergreen, and the past few years; Spits vs 109, Zeke vs Wildcat

  and they were NOT empty!

   

• Servers with no AI are empty: just plain wrong: again look at the success of il2 1946 dog fight servers (objective oriented)

   

• Servers WITH AI are emtpy; just plain wrong: look at the modded versions of Il2 1946 dog fight servers  which could use AI (objective oriented)

   

• PvP is NOT ACE vs ACE. I would say that the diversity of "competence" is bigger amongst  human pilots than with using AI: what we need from AI is GOOD AI. IL2 1946 AI was really not very good; They were very predictable no matter how "good" they were". If we use AI we need them to be Indistinguishable from human pilots; we would need to make it hard to ID a plane as an AI or a HUMAN.

  Now when u saw/see a big bomber formation or a well organized fighter wing; it could only be ai... or SvAF

   

• In my opinion, the only really addition from AI is that, as mentioned before, we might gain more "organised" formations of both bombers and fighter wings which  of course increase the sensation of realism. And that is for many (included me) a big thing)

I would and will fly both.... what we have here in this thread is a variant of Monty  Python's "I would like to buy an argument"-scetch; especially tha part about "contradiction":)

Agree completely Klunk.

If I may throw my 2 cents worth....I would like to see AI in at least one server.

(1) Adds immersion in my view(not just a bunch of Campers and Scoregetters as some like to Play).And that's OK for them but I want options other than playin the "Furball" game.

 For example if you have some AI Bomber/Ga aircraft in a server,they will attract some pilots to attack them...Defenders know,fly above the Bombers and some Human pilots will come along to attack the "Easy AI ".

(2)How often do we see 50 Pilots on any server at any given worldwide time ? Never (IMHO)...So what happens when we have No AI and 3 Human pilots on a map of huge proportions? (because of our time zone)..Try to find each other !...

I think it is was Bearcat that said we should have "Options"...If I have AI in a server ,then , I have More Options how I fly and enjoy the game. Also,when I engage an enemy,I don't Know if he is Human or AI.

If he shoots me down,does it matter ?

~S~

[Cybermat47]

I thought this thread was dead.

[II./JG77_Manu*]

I  just finished reading Rudel's 'Stuka Pilot', and the most compelling thing that jumped out constantly was that he wouldn't have lasted a second vs online humans - he seemed to take it as a matter of routine that he would be able to successfully evade whatever fighters happened to be trying to stop him on the way to the target and back. He was quite dismissive of 99% of the Soviet pilots, and it sounds like he caused at least one ace to crash while this guy was chasing him. Online, what human fighter will let a Ju87 go without engaging (and more than likely killing), or make just one pass and go home?

 

No, reading the book just made me aware of how utterly unrealistic online combat simming is - you're going up against people who've had as much gunnery practice as they've had free time to put into it, who do not fear death even slightly, who receive brand new aircraft all the time, who have a wealth of online information to study from, who are intimately familiar with their oppositions aircraft (because they can fly them whenever they want!), who are sitting in a comfortable office chair after having a decent nights sleep, who are well fed (as are you, but anyway hopefully you see my point) etc etc........compare that to conditions at the front in WW2.....I would go so far as to say that if you want a realistic mission, you must have AI in some of the roles. Otherwise the numbers must be adjusted to unrealistic levels if you still want a decent game (ie bombers get murdered by fighters online, far more so than IRL, hence increase the bomber numbers if you still want a decent game - just an example).

 

I totally get the need for AI to have a decent game, and allow noobs/infrequent online players a chance to feel productive in online simming, and keep them engaged long enough. Who knows, maybe they stick around long enough to get some real online skill going.

 

I read a lot of (auto)biographys from the second world war, mostly from german pilots (because i am german myself). The most interesting books of all are "Die deutsche Wehrmacht im 2. Weltkrieg - Luftwaffe" (they are over 30 years old and you can't even buy them anymore). The reason, they are so interesting is, that they don't tell stories about aces, but about whole (not so well-known) Geschwader like JG4, or KG27. And the outcome was the same almost every time. After a month or so, almost NO pilot, who came to front duties survived.

You seriously can't take the probably best attacker pilot ever as an example of how the missions went. Fact is, that especially the Ju87 were raped after the germans couldnt sustain their air superiority anymore. Often there was whole Kampfgruppe killed in a single sortie! So it's in fact very realistic on the online servers right now, regarding bombers. But i agree, it would be better to lead a whole Kampfgruppe into battle, which are following you, doing mission tasks (like in Cliffs of Dover, there it's working perfect even with fighters, the AI flies in nice formation with you), because in history bombers or ground attackers have barely been alone. 

So i am definetly for AI in online servers, but only bombers and ground attackers, NO FIGHTERS.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Celestiale

[ARM505]

No, of course he was very good. And insanely lucky too. But my point is that even the best Ju87 pilot here would not, on average, last even 10% of Rudels missions against online opponents, IMHO. Online opponents are simply more aggressive and have better gunnery than the average line pilot in WW2, but thats my opinion.

[AceRevo]

Lets make a poll: Do you want AI in multiplayer? Yes / No.

 

EDIT: 

Celestiale

 

I just read your post. Imagine if we have a game purely for bombers and attackers, with AI and NO human fighters.... Now, where do you think most bombers will go? To the hardcore original servers or to this bomber/attacker server? 

 

I would like to cover bombers in multiplayer! I would like to defend my airfield from incoming bombers!!! Now, where is that facepalm smiley........... 

 

 

 

----------------------------

 

 

 

I vote no AI. Ju87 moved in in numbers.. if you dont have a wing man, get some fighter cover.. when more ppl join BoS it shouldnt be that hard, should it? I'd cover u! 

Edited September 2, 2014 by AceRevo

[Dakpilot]

Lets make a poll: Do you want AI in multiplayer? Yes / No.

 

 

Surely this is up to whoever puts a server up. AI, no AI....if it is popular people will come, if not they will change the settings......  If BoS is popular there will be servers for both parties...

 

As a side point, have to agree with ARM505 regarding a lot of online flying

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited September 2, 2014 by Dakpilot

[Gambit21]

Exactly, no need to get to attached to the subject either way.

[KodiakJac]

In particular, I would love to see AI bombers on MP servers. And not a few flying bullseyes but realistic sized formations that would be a little more difficult to attack. Human bomber pilots could then join these formations for protection as alone a human bomber pilot stands little chance. A better chance of surviving will encourage more human bomber pilots in MP.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Bucksnort

[II./JG77_Manu*]

Lets make a poll: Do you want AI in multiplayer? Yes / No.

 

EDIT:

Celestiale

 

I just read your post. Imagine if we have a game purely for bombers and attackers, with AI and NO human fighters.... Now, where do you think most bombers will go? To the hardcore original servers or to this bomber/attacker server?

 

I would like to cover bombers in multiplayer! I would like to defend my airfield from incoming bombers!!! Now, where is that facepalm smiley...........

 

 

 

----------------------------

 

 

 

I vote no AI. Ju87 moved in in numbers.. if you dont have a wing man, get some fighter cover.. when more ppl join BoS it shouldnt be that hard, should it? I'd cover u!

Either you didn't read my Post propperly, or you don't understand english language precisely. I was never talking about not having human fighters, no idea where you have that crazy idea from - *facepalm*

[Mac_Messer]

In particular, I would love to see AI bombers on MP servers. And not a few flying bullseyes but realistic sized formations that would be a little more difficult to attack. Human bomber pilots could then join these formations for protection as alone a human bomber pilot stands little chance. A better chance of surviving will encourage more human bomber pilots in MP.

This is especially important part of immersive online experience. Bombers as AI can carry out their job just fine. Not perfect, mind you, but we got around that too in 1946. In online wars, normally the leader bomber would be manned by a human pilot that would perform a bombrun. This way, sometimes the runs were 100% success, sometimes failed, just like in real life.