Why we need AI in online wars.

[Panzerlang]

Does anyone believe there would have been any aces if the vast majority of pilots had been veterans or aces in their skill before they met in combat? But this is how it is online. And it reduces nearly every fight to one of the machine instead of the pilot. Skill being approximately equal it's the guy with the Spitfire who'll beat the guy with the 109 every single time. There is no human flaw to find and no way to beat the machine. AI levels the playing field and allows historically realistic outcomes to develop. Most aces got their kills against rookies and average pilots, even when those pilots were flying the superior machine, because those pilots didn't know how, or were too scared, to fly them to their limits.

 

There is no such thing as an online war where there are only humans vs humans; they are, by functional definition, nothing but dog-fight servers.

 

[BraveSirRobin]

There is no such thing as an online war where there are only humans vs humans; they are, by functional definition, nothing but dog-fight servers.

 

Or you find some people to fly bombers.  Then they are, by functional definition, no longer dog-fight servers.

 

I despise AI in MP servers.

[Panzerlang]

Lol. Fly bombers...a tiny handful are up for that. And it doesn't change the dynamic one iota. The bombers are a quick treat for the dog-fighters, who then get back to their air-quake fest.

 

You despise AI because you come with an "I'm ok jack, nuts to anyone else who wants more depth" attitude. Not everyone wants mindless dog-fighting, there are plenty who want to fly a persona and try to emulate the careers of the aces. That is not even remotely possible on any server that offers nothing but human vs human.

Edited May 5, 2014 by II/JG3Siggi

[BraveSirRobin]

Lol. Fly bombers...a tiny handful are up for that. And it doesn't change the dynamic one iota. The bombers are a quick treat for the dog-fighters, who then get back to their air-quake fest.

 

You despise AI because you come with an "I'm ok jack, nuts to anyone else who wants more depth" attitude. Not everyone wants mindless dog-fighting, there are plenty who want to fly a persona and try to emulate the careers of the aces. That is not even remotely possible on any server that offers nothing but human vs human.

 

Yeah, fly bombers.  Lots of people fly bombers in RoF.  Lots of people escort bombers in RoF.  It's not exactly realistic in WW1 terms (there should be mostly recon), but it's perfect for WW2 eastern front combat.

 

As for why I despise AI, it's because I'm pretty sure there were no robot drones flying during WW2.  I want realism, and robot drones are not realistic.  There are plenty of crappy human pilots on which to pad your stats.  Not everyone can practice every day.

[startrekmike]

There is easily room for both, some servers are going to focus more on PvP only missions and some will focus on missions with AI, there is no right or wrong way to do it, it all comes down to what you personally like.

 

  For me, I prefer missions that are structured around realistic mission goals and pacing, this is possible to do with all human players but it is easier to do with AI, more to the point, I prefer co-op missions anyway.

 

  It comes down to personal taste, I am not really sure what the OP's first post was really for other than to tell us what they personally like, not everyone is going to share that preference and nor should they feel the need to.

[Panzerlang]

There are plenty of 'crappy' pilots who have neither the time or inclination to hone their skills to a point where they have a fraction of a chance of getting a kill against an online vet by anything other than luck.

 

Why do you think the online RoF is a ghost-town, and has been a ghost-town for years? Because the experience is vacuous dog-fighting pap. Against the same tiny handful of extremely competant pilots. Newbs come, are shredded, and leave, never to return. And the majority of even those who were up to the job got bored and left.

 

The greatest joy in a flight-combat sim is blowing shit up, be it planes or stuff on the ground. Deny a player that in sufficient quantity and he'll give it up. And if all pilots are competant, such that the quality of the machine dictates the outcome, as it does in CloD, even the competant pilots flying the inferior machine will give it up.

 

Having AI gives everyone a bite at the apple. That is so obvious, as are its ramifications, I'm amazed it needs to be pointed out.

 

RoF online...dead. CloD online...dead. Why? No or insufficient AI. IL2 online, a success for over a decade. Why? Lots of AI.

[BraveSirRobin]

I think there is a place for AI flying recon in MP missions, and maybe even some bomber formations.  But fighter and ground attack should all be human.

There are plenty of 'crappy' pilots who have neither the time or inclination to hone their skills to a point where they have a fraction of a chance of getting a kill against an online vet by anything other than luck.

 

Which appears to be exactly the role you want the AI to play.  If we have plenty of humans in that role, there is no need for AI.

[Panzerlang]

There is easily room for both, some servers are going to focus more on PvP only missions and some will focus on missions with AI, there is no right or wrong way to do it, it all comes down to what you personally like.

 

  For me, I prefer missions that are structured around realistic mission goals and pacing, this is possible to do with all human players but it is easier to do with AI, more to the point, I prefer co-op missions anyway.

 

  It comes down to personal taste, I am not really sure what the OP's first post was really for other than to tell us what they personally like, not everyone is going to share that preference and nor should they feel the need to.

 

But therein lays the problem...the DN engine can't handle AI. Aka the RoF experience and the resultant morbidity of its online presence.

 

If, as others have suggested, it's because the AI uses highly complex physics, I'd recommend to the devs they provide a simpler physics for online AI, so that servers can be adequately populated with it. That or see BoS go the exact same way as RoF so far as online combat is concerned.

[BraveSirRobin]

RoF online...dead. CloD online...dead. Why? No or insufficient AI. IL2 online, a success for over a decade. Why? Lots of AI.

 

First of all, there are plenty of people playing RoF online.  I wish there were more, but there are enough.  But the argument that there would be more if we just had some additional AI is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.  People who want to fight AI can do that offline, which is exactly what they are doing.

By the way, the RoF Coop servers were empty.

 

E M P T Y

 

Lots of AI.  No people.

[Panzerlang]

I think there is a place for AI flying recon in MP missions, and maybe even some bomber formations.  But fighter and ground attack should all be human.

 

Which appears to be exactly the role you want the AI to play.  If we have plenty of humans in that role, there is no need for AI.

 

But there have never been "plenty" of humans in that roll. Not even a sufficiency. Ever.

 

And your comment about "robot drones"...the vast majority of pilots were just that. Insufficient training ultimately, poor tactics and inferior planes = AI. Only 5% of pilots who wore the commonwealth uniform in WW2 achieved ace status (five or more kills) and they accounted for 60% of all the kills. In our sims that ratio is approximately reversed, and it makes an absolute nonsense of any attempt to faithfully recreate a war scenario. Unless a lot of AI is thrown into the mix.

First of all, there are plenty of people playing RoF online.  

 

 

 

No there's not. But, obviously, our definitions differ. Mine goes by hundreds, not tens.

[BraveSirRobin]

But there have never been "plenty" of humans in that roll. Not even a sufficiency. Ever.

 

You should try RoF MP.  There are incompetent human pilots all over the place.  

[Panzerlang]

 

By the way, the RoF Coop servers were empty.

 

E M P T Y

 

Lots of AI.  No people.

 

Is not coop human vs AI, not human vs human AND AI?

[Descolada]

Why would you want AI? The AI isn't even close to a challenge for even a terrible pilot (unless they actually just have no idea to fly, at which point they should probably be playing singleplayer). If you want to play AI go play singleplayer. The only real sorts of bots I support in multiplayer would be bomber AI, since there really isn't that much of a difference besides the player being more accurate at dive bombing I suppose.

 

Also there are loads of terrible players. I can roll onto any of the current servers and find plenty of terrible people who let me bounce them even with icons on.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Descolada

[Panzerlang]

You should try RoF MP.  There are incompetent human pilots all over the place.  

 

Last time I tried it, it was about as engaging as a game of Mario Carts.

[Panzerlang]

Why would you want AI? The AI isn't even close to a challenge for even a terrible pilot (unless they actually just have no idea to fly, at which point they should probably be playing singleplayer). If you want to play AI go play singleplayer. The only real sorts of bots I support in multiplayer would be bomber AI, since there really isn't that much of a difference besides the player being more accurate at dive bombing I suppose.

 

Also there are loads of terrible players. I can roll onto any of the current servers and find plenty of terrible people who let me bounce them even with icons on.

 

I don't want to know, with certainty, that the plane I'm attacking is AI (rookie) or human (vet/ace). Any more than I want every kill to be easy (vs AI) or a hard fight for my virtual life (vs human). What I want is an experience as close to reality as possible, which does, in fact, mean most of my targets should be rookies or average pilots. Per reality.

Because you got your ass kicked before you could get to the chumps?

 

In theory there can be humans and AI on both sides or there can be humans on 1 side.  In reality the Coop missions are 

 

E 

 

M

 

P

 

T

 

Y.

 

You should probably stay with IL2 1946.  You can't get 100s into CoD, RoF, or BoS, even with no AI at all.

 

Clearly I wasn't talking about hundreds on the same server.

 

And no, I didn't get my "ass kicked", I simply found the entire gig extremely dull and unsatisfying. But then I come from the computer games era that predates consoles.

[URUAker]

S! Siggi, not sure if I understood the thread correctly.

But Ghost Skies is a great online war with great strategical and tactical depth, and as far as i remember is human vs human with no AI.

[BraveSirRobin]

I don't want to know, with certainty, that the plane I'm attacking is AI (rookie) or human (vet/ace). Any more than I want every kill to be easy (vs AI) or a hard fight for my virtual life (vs human). What I want is an experience as close to reality as possible, which does, in fact, mean most of my targets should be rookies or average pilots. Per reality.

 

1.  You have no way of knowing if the person you meet is competent or not if there is no AI in the mission.  

 

2.  There were no robots flying aircraft during WW2.

 

Summary:  Adding AI does NOT make missions more realistic or less predictable.

[Brano]

I will eat my 3 days old socks if I will ever see on average MP server 18 human controlled stukas flying in "2 waves of 9 each'' formation.As they usually did on eastern front and as was many times mentioned in memoires of Sasha Pokryshkin.This is what Siggi means,I would say.

Other +point for AI in MP are special historical missions.In old sturm there were plenty of special coop missions flown by squads against AI to simulate historical events.Like this one,which is dear to me as it is part of history of my country.

26.6.1944 8 fighters of ''Pohotovostna letka'' (Emergency Flight) took-off to face american bomber formations of 15th USAAF near capital Bratislava though this time it was not their target (week earlier they bombed oil rafinery Apollo in Bratislava) Result of attack was 1 B-24 shot down by rtk. G. Lang and one damaged B-17 (rtk. R. Bozik).Numerous fighter escort of P-51s and P-38s acted immediately and in following minutes almost whole Emergency Flight was decimated.It lost 3 pilots (Puskar, Lang, Jambor),another one heavily wounded (Zelenak). 6 aircrafts were destroyed in aerial combat and during crash landings. As result there were only few Bf 109 Gs left for planned uprising against Germans.

You will never ever recreate such historical missions without AI.

Squad flying against AI is/was big part of online life in old sturm.Because it was bunch of guys who knew each other,were history enthusiasts and wanted to have fun within squad,to fly like squad in campaign....

if they decided to have a break,they went to average dogfight server and had fun killing each other in furbal.

[Panzerlang]

1.  You have no way of knowing if the person you meet is competent or not if there is no AI in the mission.  

 

2.  There were no robots flying aircraft during WW2.

 

Summary:  Adding AI does NOT make missions more realistic or less predictable.

 

Yes it does.

[DD_fruitbat]

I will eat my 3 days old socks if I will ever see on average MP server 18 human controlled stukas flying in "2 waves of 9 each'' formation.As they usually did on eastern front and as was many times mentioned in memoires of Sasha Pokryshkin.This is what Siggi means,I would say.

Other +point for AI in MP are special historical missions.In old sturm there were plenty of special coop missions flown by squads against AI to simulate historical events.Like this one,which is dear to me as it is part of history of my country.26.6.1944 8 fighters of ''Pohotovostna letka'' (Emergency Flight) took-off to face american bomber formations of 15th USAAF near capital Bratislava though this time it was not their target (week earlier they bombed oil rafinery Apollo in Bratislava) Result of attack was 1 B-24 shot down by rtk. G. Lang and one damaged B-17 (rtk. R. Bozik).Numerous fighter escort of P-51s and P-38s acted immediately and in following minutes almost whole Emergency Flight was decimated.It lost 3 pilots (Puskar, Lang, Jambor),another one heavily wounded (Zelenak). 6 aircrafts were destroyed in aerial combat and during crash landings. As result there were only few Bf 109 Gs left for planned uprising against Germans.

You will never ever recreate such historical missions without AI.

Squad flying against AI is/was big part of online life in old sturm.Because it was bunch of guys who knew each other,were history enthusiasts and wanted to have fun within squad,to fly like squad in campaign....

if they decided to have a break,they went to average dogfight server and had fun killing each other in furbal.

Quoted for truth. Spot on.

[Panzerlang]

I will eat my 3 days old socks if I will ever see on average MP server 18 human controlled stukas flying in "2 waves of 9 each'' formation.As they usually did on eastern front and as was many times mentioned in memoires of Sasha Pokryshkin.This is what Siggi means,I would say.

 

Other +point for AI in MP are special historical missions.In old sturm there were plenty of special coop missions flown by squads against AI to simulate historical events.Like this one,which is dear to me as it is part of history of my country.

 

26.6.1944 8 fighters of ''Pohotovostna letka'' (Emergency Flight) took-off to face american bomber formations of 15th USAAF near capital Bratislava though this time it was not their target (week earlier they bombed oil rafinery Apollo in Bratislava) Result of attack was 1 B-24 shot down by rtk. G. Lang and one damaged B-17 (rtk. R. Bozik).Numerous fighter escort of P-51s and P-38s acted immediately and in following minutes almost whole Emergency Flight was decimated.It lost 3 pilots (Puskar, Lang, Jambor),another one heavily wounded (Zelenak). 6 aircrafts were destroyed in aerial combat and during crash landings. As result there were only few Bf 109 Gs left for planned uprising against Germans.

 

You will never ever recreate such historical missions without AI.

Squad flying against AI is/was big part of online life in old sturm.Because it was bunch of guys who knew each other,were history enthusiasts and wanted to have fun within squad,to fly like squad in campaign....

if they decided to have a break,they went to average dogfight server and had fun killing each other in furbal.

 

+1

 

All of the old-school successful online wars featured plenty of AI. It's only since the absense of servers that feature it that online warfare has died, to be replaced by air-quake dogfight servers. That are ghost-towns.

Edited May 5, 2014 by II/JG3Siggi

[BraveSirRobin]

Yes it does.

 

I look forward to seeing your empty server on the Muli-Player list.

There is nothing stopping your squad from fighting against AI.  Just don't expect any visitors.

[Panzerlang]

I look forward to seeing your empty server on the Muli-Player list.

 

 

Yes, I thought you might.

Edited May 5, 2014 by II/JG3Siggi

[FuriousMeow]

First - This title supports AI online.

 

Second - It supports enough AI for Eastern Front missions.

 

Third - AI is filler for lack of humans.

 

Fourth - I've flown plenty of scenarios/battles/wars with human controlled bombers in flights attacking defined targets with assigned escorts and intercepting groups. Eat your socks Brano, it was the staple of WarBirds and Aces High organized scenarios - no AI, all human.

 

Fifth - And most important - Siggi needs AI, because no one else will be on his servers.

Edited May 5, 2014 by FuriousMeow

[Panzerlang]

First - This title supports AI online.

 

Second - It supports enough AI for Eastern Front missions.

 

Third - AI is filler for lack of humans.

 

Fourth - I've flown plenty of scenarios/battles/wars with human controlled bombers in flights attacking defined targets with assigned escorts and intercepting groups. Eat your socks Brano, it was the staple of WarBirds and Aces High organized scenarios - no AI, all human.

 

Currently it barely handles 15 vs 15 humans. But WiP etc. Maybe it'll reach the capability of RoF. At which point, like RoF, there'll be no room for AI.

[FuriousMeow]

Currently it barely handles 15 vs 15 humans. But WiP etc. Maybe it'll reach the capability of RoF. At which point, like RoF, there'll be no room for AI.

 

What? Do you dine on lead paint chips? All of that is nonsensical and outright stupid. BoS is limited because the map is small, its testing, its alpha, etc. Look at the alpha of other games, they don't have 100+ people online. RoF has AI online. Just stop.

Edited May 5, 2014 by FuriousMeow

[Brano]

Exactly as you say meow.It WAS.Somewhere in the past,in galaxy far,far away...Here I speak about BoS,obviously.So I will just keep my socks somewhere safe untill I will see what I wrote I would like to see

[FuriousMeow]

Exactly as you say meow.It WAS.Somewhere in the past,in galaxy far,far away...Here I speak about BoS,obviously.So I will just keep my socks somewhere safe untill I will see what I wrote I would like to see

 

No, it still is - I just don't play them anymore. They still occur in AH II, and also in RoF. Honestly, do you guys just spout rhetoric for no reason without researching?

 

They even have an entire forum for AHII: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?board=15.0

 

I posted a relavant link for the RoF stuff in another thread here, you can search for it because I think many of you need the practice of searching.

 

And Siggi, you didn't create the Dead is Dead concept. That concept existed back in Red Baron 3D days of online wars - and I'm certain well before then.

Edited May 5, 2014 by FuriousMeow

[Brano]

As usual you are absolutely right Meow.My apologies for spitting rhetoric for no reason without researching

[FuriousMeow]

I know I'm right. I've participated in enough events and wars over the past decade and a half to know that AI is only filler in case of low numbers. A full battle/scenario/war of people is far better than a bunch of AI milling about except in individual small units of mindless tasks that involve... you know, there are zero AI units in online only games with perpetual 24x7 wars going on with humans flying those terrible supply flights to repair airfields or drop troops to capture fields.

 

Give the human controlled plane a point with a reward, and surprisingly humans will do it. There's even a study on it with computer games that gauge investment vs reward, and if all someone has to do is fly a little C-47 over a hill to drop troops and gain far more perk points than they ever could amass as a fighter then surprise, surprise - they'll go right on ahead and do it.

 

We don't need AI, just need the rewards for doing the AI's job in a fun environment that makes it worthwhile.

Edited May 5, 2014 by FuriousMeow

[VBF-12_Stick-95]

"I'm right and you're wrong."     "No, I'm right and you're wrong."

 

wow.

 

How about having the AI option available to the mission makers and server admins?

 

Then WE decide which servers to fly in.

[Rjel]

Some of the attitudes in this thread are great arguments for playing single player. I think Siggi's original comments were valid. No one who's flown sims as long as most of us can be as inept as an ill trained WWII era fighter pilot his first few times out. That is where having AI going along could well simulate reality. 

[sturmkraehe]

There are plenty of 'crappy' pilots who have neither the time or inclination to hone their skills to a point where they have a fraction of a chance of getting a kill against an online vet by anything other than luck.

 

Why do you think the online RoF is a ghost-town, and has been a ghost-town for years? Because the experience is vacuous dog-fighting pap. Against the same tiny handful of extremely competant pilots. Newbs come, are shredded, and leave, never to return. And the majority of even those who were up to the job got bored and left.

 

The greatest joy in a flight-combat sim is blowing shit up, be it planes or stuff on the ground. Deny a player that in sufficient quantity and he'll give it up. And if all pilots are competant, such that the quality of the machine dictates the outcome, as it does in CloD, even the competant pilots flying the inferior machine will give it up.

 

Having AI gives everyone a bite at the apple. That is so obvious, as are its ramifications, I'm amazed it needs to be pointed out.

 

RoF online...dead. CloD online...dead. Why? No or insufficient AI. IL2 online, a success for over a decade. Why? Lots of AI.

 

Uhm, I am a bit confused. You say ROF MP is deserted because it only pits veterans agains veterans or because newbies are pitted against veterans? I am also confused because reading your posts they seem to say ROF is deserted because there are no AI targets for newbies to shoot down. Well, as far as I remember ROF had AI in mp maps. Just like CLOD. So my guess is it's not the reason. BTW. original IL2 had a huge online community flying mp which had no AI at all for online flying except for coops. Did't prevent hundreds of players to enjoy mp.

 

My guess is:

- ROF depicts an era that is already quite remote for most of us. There are also far less Holywood movies on this era. Public - and in extension gamer - interest is thus not that big.

- Combat flight sims are very hard and one needs to be resiliant to frustration. That less people are now interested in learning the hard way (the only way to become successful in a combat flight sim) is probably a societal tendency. AFAIK the tendency in the game industry is anyhow more towards casual playing (wii, all these smart phone apps, ...).

 

Apart from that, I am sure the devs will provide means to mission builders to integrate AI. So no need to create a dust cloud before the game is released and the features of the fmb are known.

Edited May 5, 2014 by sturmkraehe

[=AVG=Zombie]

I see 90+ people in CLoD all the time, ATAG server always has a great turn out.... 

[Cybermat47]

I think some of the people here need to calm down. Remember, it's just a game

 

Each side has good points. Multiplayer' main appeal is testing your skill against that of another human. But if we want a realistic experience, some people are going to have to be rookies. Now, as I, the least skilled person who plays these games, cannot be everywhere at once, AI seems to be the most logical choice. But AI in multiplayer does sort of go against the whole point of multiplayer.

 

In the end, it's the player's choice.

[BraveSirRobin]

 Now, as I, the least skilled person who plays these games, cannot be everywhere at once, AI seems to be the most logical choice. But AI in multiplayer does sort of go against the whole point of multiplayer.

 

 

It amazes me how many people think that MP servers are filled with nothing but aces.  The truth is that there always seems to be someone that sucks even worse than you flying on a server at any given time.

[AndyJWest]

I've never played on a server that only had aces on it. 

[Panzerlang]

What? Do you dine on lead paint chips? All of that is nonsensical and outright stupid. BoS is limited because the map is small, its testing, its alpha, etc. Look at the alpha of other games, they don't have 100+ people online. RoF has AI online. Just stop.

 

Ahem. They started off with 60+ players. It was a lag-fest. Lol. Geddit? No, seriously though, they turned down the numbers because it was a slide-show. But WiP, we all know they're tuning it up and I see no reason why it won't reach RoF capability. With no room for AI. Cos dem physics, innit.

 

No, it still is - I just don't play them anymore. They still occur in AH II, and also in RoF. Honestly, do you guys just spout rhetoric for no reason without researching?

 

They even have an entire forum for AHII: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?board=15.0

 

I posted a relavant link for the RoF stuff in another thread here, you can search for it because I think many of you need the practice of searching.

 

And Siggi, you didn't create the Dead is Dead concept. That concept existed back in Red Baron 3D days of online wars - and I'm certain well before then.

 

Yeah. It was me who introduced it to the RB3 crowd.

[Capt_Hook]

I know I'm right. I've participated in enough events and wars over the past decade and a half to know that AI is only filler in case of low numbers. A full battle/scenario/war of people is far better than a bunch of AI milling about except in individual small units of mindless tasks that involve... you know, there are zero AI units in online only games with perpetual 24x7 wars going on with humans flying those terrible supply flights to repair airfields or drop troops to capture fields.

 

Give the human controlled plane a point with a reward, and surprisingly humans will do it. There's even a study on it with computer games that gauge investment vs reward, and if all someone has to do is fly a little C-47 over a hill to drop troops and gain far more perk points than they ever could amass as a fighter then surprise, surprise - they'll go right on ahead and do it.

 

We don't need AI, just need the rewards for doing the AI's job in a fun environment that makes it worthwhile.

I was reading through the thread, wondering if this point was going to be made, and FM doesn't let me down. 

 

I've been involved with Warclouds, Greater Green, and most lately Warbirds of Prey (Spits vs 109s) going all the way back to the Aces Expansion Pack, and the one thing the most successful community servers provided was persistent stats, with an occasional wipe to reset everyone.  People realize quickly that dropping a 500 pounder on that train gets you more points than shooting down several tough aces, and guess what... they fly bombers or Jabo suddenly!  I hate bombing with a passion, but I certainly didn't begrudge them their points, as it provided them with an incentive to fly them.  Never any shortage of bombers or Jabo flyers on these servers.

 

Ghost Skies takes this to a whole other level.

 

As long as players can see the results of bombing missions in some sort of persistent reward structure, then we'll have plenty of folks lining up to be the next Rudel.  No need for AI.

[Panzerlang]

Uhm, I am a bit confused. You say ROF MP is deserted because it only pits veterans agains veterans or because newbies are pitted against veterans? I am also confused because reading your posts they seem to say ROF is deserted because there are no AI targets for newbies to shoot down. Well, as far as I remember ROF had AI in mp maps. Just like CLOD. So my guess is it's not the reason. BTW. original IL2 had a huge online community flying mp which had no AI at all for online flying except for coops. Did't prevent hundreds of players to enjoy mp.

 

My guess is:

- ROF depicts an era that is already quite remote for most of us. There are also far less Holywood movies on this era. Public - and in extension gamer - interest is thus not that big.

- Combat flight sims are very hard and one needs to be resiliant to frustration. That less people are now interested in learning the hard way (the only way to become successful in a combat flight sim) is probably a societal tendency. AFAIK the tendency in the game industry is anyhow more towards casual playing (wii, all these smart phone apps, ...).

 

Apart from that, I am sure the devs will provide means to mission builders to integrate AI. So no need to create a dust cloud before the game is released and the features of the fmb are known.

 

I'm saying it's deserted because once a critical mass of experienced pilots have taken over and dominate a server the vast majority of newbies will take only a few good kickings before they give it up. And the vets themselves, those who aren't fanatically dedicated furballers, they get bored of the same old routine week in, week out, and move on too. And with less newbies sticking it out than vets who get bored and leave...you get the picture.

 

Or...somebody else care to explain why CloD and RoF are pretty much dead? The ATAG occasionally sees around a hundred players on at the same time. Does RoF see even that? So, what's up with that? Why aren't there hundreds, if not thousands, of players on at peak times? Like the good old days of IL2? Please, somebody enlighten me if I've got it so wrong. Where are all the players, lapping up that non-AI goodness? Eh?

 

People are sick to their back teeth of shallow air-quake dogfight servers, with the 10% fuel-loads and win-at-any-cost headless-chicken desperately-fragile ego mayhem. People want depth, they want intelligent missions and they want a chance to shoot shit down without having to dedicate weeks and months to become skillfull enough before they can handle the resident gang-bangers. Fail to give it to them and this game will be dead online before six months after release. And that's an extremely charitable prediction.