Me262 won't stall

[lantern53]

I wanted to check the stall speed of the ME262 in the landing config, so put gear down, full flaps, and I ended up with full aft stick and the rate of descent was so slow that I was able to ride it right down to a safe landing.

 

That's not right, is it?

[Stoopy]

What were trim and throttle settings?

 

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

This is the Kind of Trim the 262 has. Changing the Trim changes the AoA the Aircraft can achieve at Max-Pull on the Stick. This System has a lot of Advantages and is used in all german Fighters.

It is more Effective and has a wider Range of Speeds it can adjust for, and in a Dive at Terminal Velocity can prevent Sub-Sonic tuck under of the Nose if adjusted correctly before the Dive.

 

Edited May 28, 2020 by 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann

[Raven109]

If you're losing altitude, it means you're already stalled, or as others have stated, because of your trim settings, you don't have enough elevator authority at low speeds to get to the critical AoA.

Edited May 28, 2020 by Raven109

[Reggie_Mental]

Stall characteristics of swept wing and delta aircraft can be very benign and be little more than a slight pitching down of the nose. This can then produces a recovery in forward speed, which generates lift, bring the nose up again and raising the AoA, lowering the speed, and the process begins all over again. Notice how a paper dart thrown from an upstairs window flies: It pitches up, and then stalls, pitches down, regaining forward speed until it pitches up again. I think his phenomena has a particular name, Phugoid oscillation*. Also remember that being a jet, you don't have a great big spinning mass out in if front of you producing torque pulling you one way or the other.

 

Sound like the Devs got the physics down to a fine art. I'm off to research my Me262 stall physics now.

 

*Anyone better versed in the physics of flight know if I have got this right and is this what lantern53 'virtually' experienced?

Edited May 28, 2020 by Reggie_Mental

[lantern53]

9 hours ago, Raven109 said:

If you're losing altitude, it means you're already stalled, or as others have stated, because of your trim settings, you don't have enough elevator authority at low speeds to get to the critical AoA.

So you can ride a real one down to a gentle landing with engines at idle?

[Raven109]

Do you expect a dead stick landing to not be possible with the 262? Not having more information from your side, I cannot say what you are trying to do/prove. Is your speed below the stall speed, when gliding and landing? What is your descent rate?

 

As I said above, you could be losing altitude because of not having enough elevator authority, because of your trim settings. So, the 262 will not be able to maintain level flight, but its speed will be above the stalling speed, which amounts to a controlled glide. If I go and change 262s trim settings, I can pull its nose up until it stalls, and if I insist it goes into a flat spin.

 

Having said that, I think that low speed behavior (flaps/gear down) needs a bit of improving, since it's a bit optimistic at the moment (this was reported as a bug at some point, but I don't think anything has changed):

 

 

Edited May 29, 2020 by Raven109

[=621=Samikatz]

17 hours ago, Reggie_Mental said:

Stall characteristics of swept wing and delta aircraft can be very benign and be little more than a slight pitching down of the nose. This can then produces a recovery in forward speed, which generates lift, bring the nose up again and raising the AoA, lowering the speed, and the process begins all over again. Notice how a paper dart thrown from an upstairs window flies: It pitches up, and then stalls, pitches down, regaining forward speed until it pitches up again. I think his phenomena has a particular name, Phugoid oscillation*. Also remember that being a jet, you don't have a great big spinning mass out in if front of you producing torque pulling you one way or the other.

 

Sound like the Devs got the physics down to a fine art. I'm off to research my Me262 stall physics now.

 

*Anyone better versed in the physics of flight know if I have got this right and is this what lantern53 'virtually' experienced?

 

Swept wing jets can spin, though it's not as violent as a bad prop spin, for sure. Skip to 15:10 and watch a MiG tumble

 

 

Has anyone got any official documentation on the 262's stall characteristics to share? Interested to see how having the engines quite forward on the wings impacts it

[lantern53]

I did not perform a dead stick landing in the 262...I just held the stick all the way back with engines at idle and my descent rate was so slow that I was able to just hit the ground at a survivable speed which doesn't seem right to me.

[Raven109]

Ok, I think I see what you mean.

 

In a gear/flaps down configuration, your sink rate is around 8-9m/s at 170-180km/h, with full aft stick. If you hold the aircraft stable, you will pancake and survive. 8-9m/s is 28.8-32.4km/h, and I think it's definitely survivable, although with injuries (which the game doesn't model in detail). In this game world if you hit the ground at a shallow angle, even if you're going fast, you get to survive quite often. The damage model is not that detailed, in this regard (i.e fuel tank ruptures are not modeled, all planes are modeled as non-deformable solids, etc)

 

Now, regarding the in-game 262, it's true that at low altitudes, with flaps/gear down its stall has a mild behavior. The flaps might be too effective, as you can see from the spit video above.

 

Just a note, for the other comments, stalling is a different state than spinning.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Raven109

[=362nd_FS=RoflSeal]

8-9m/s is nearly double the sink rate when a modern jet aircraft lands on a carrier. If a land based aircraft landed at that descent speed it probably would damage it.

[lantern53]

I just can't believe an early jet, or any jet for that matter, not having a stall.

[Blackhawk_FR]

13 hours ago, lantern53 said:

I just can't believe an early jet, or any jet for that matter, not having a stall.

 

They stall. Any aircraft stall. May be just not the way "you want", or except. 

[AndyJWest]

Given enough thrust, and the proper aircraft design, 'stalling' need not really be a thing. Or at least, not in a way that matters:

 

At the sort of AoA achieved here (up to about 120°, I believe), the difference between 'lift' and 'drag' is mostly a matter of semantics, but the aircraft is still more or less under control. The leading-edge extensions and canards combine to maintain a complex three-dimensional flow over the low-aspect-ratio wing way beyond any angle at which the airflow over a more conventional design would have broken down.

 

Most (if not all?) modern fighters are designed like this to some extent, and though most won't do a 'Cobra', they are capable (usually with FBW assistance) of achieving very high AoA, at least for a short time. Whether you actually want to do it in combat is another matter: stopping dead in the air isn't generally tactically useful. ?

 

As for the Me-262's stall, I don't recall reading anything which suggested it was particularly problematic, though frankly in the way it was supposed to be operated, stalling it shouldn't normally be an issue. The next generation of jet fighters were another matter - they had significantly more wing sweep, and could sometimes behave in particularly nasty ways. At least one of the early US jet fighters (can't remember which one) used to stall at the tips first. Not a good thing, since the loss of lift behind the CG meant that the aircraft would then pitch up, making the stall worse. A pilot killer.... 

 

 

[lantern53]

right, I have a particular stall in mind /s

 

how about you try it youself...take the 262, or take the P-47, gear down, full flaps, and see if you can stall...it won't do it....with anything less than full flaps the 47 will stall, but not with full flaps....I like how some of you guys just come up with theories w/o testing whether what I say is true or not

Edited May 30, 2020 by lantern53

[Blackhawk_FR]

I have to admit the P47 with full flaps down and full power got some insane capabilities. 

 

I can't even do that with an Extra330.......... 

 

I'm wondering when are they going to correct it. 

[Hirachi]

 

Stalling heavy metal..