Near Labels

[beresford]

Back when I played Falcon 4, I used the near labels option, which meant that I didn't know the identity of distant aircraft but could tell who they were at a range in which a real pilot could visually identify them . It also meant that I could tell who my wingmen were and discover that when I cleared them RTB because of low fuel they instead skulked around in the vicinity of my plane until they plaintively cried 'Joker, flameout'.

 

Any love for allowing the lesser-skilled among us to have an option like this in MP? At its most rudimentary it could just consist of a red or blue tinge around the plane at close range. The purists will cry that everybody should learn identification silhouettes from multiple angles, but it is a game not a career. I hear folk complaining about getting 'team-killed', this would reduce the incidence of mistaken identity substantially.

 

On a less controversial note, I think we can all agree that there is nothing realistic about spawning on an airfield and not knowing where the runway is, particularly when we want to encourage pilots to use them. Should we have the GPS switched on when you are on the ground, even on 'realism' servers, as I believe was the case in ROF?

[Talon_]

A blue dot denoting "friendly" above allied aircraft within ~600m would go a long way towards preventing friendly fire, especially given the increased prevalence of VR headset users. It could be an option for MP server owners so as not to always "ruin" the experience for monitor users.

15 minutes ago, beresford said:

 

On a less controversial note, I think we can all agree that there is nothing realistic about spawning on an airfield and not knowing where the runway is, particularly when we want to encourage pilots to use them. Should we have the GPS switched on when you are on the ground, even on 'realism' servers, as I believe was the case in ROF?

 

If you join us on Combat Box, spawn points are flanked with yellow/black arrow signs. Follow the directions to the runway!

[=FEW=Hauggy]

Well you can always stick to the "normal" difficulty servers, or fly solo, i'm not sure how far those icon go tbh.

People who fly in expert difficulty do it because that is how they want to enjoy the game and I even hear some yelling when a server has the "GPS".

You can always open the map and try to navigate visually and learn how what the planes look like like everyone else.

This is not Falcon 4 or War Thunder.

The community is pretty welcoming and i'm sure you'll find people willing to teach u the basics either on comms like the server discords or the official teamspeak or on the forum.

And Like Talon said Combat Box has little signs to guide you to the runway, but honestly it's pretty obvious by looking around visually or following the others, most servers have a fire on the edge of the runway to guide players and show them that the airfield is active.

Good luck!

Edited May 26, 2020 by =FEW=Hauggy

[Talon_]

11 minutes ago, =FEW=Hauggy said:

Well you can always stick to the "normal" difficulty servers, or fly solo, i'm not sure how far those icon go tbh.

People who fly in expert difficulty do it because that is how they want to enjoy the game and I even hear some yelling when a server has the "GPS".

 

For what it's worth, I think a dot appearing above a friendly plane (and nothing above an enemy plane) just as you enter gun range (5-600m) is a pretty good compromise. If you're being attacked, you won't have time to suddenly ID and react in most cases, and if you're the attacker you will have time to hold fire. It should help with IFF issues that are only going to happen more often as the percentage of VR pilots keeps growing.

[=FEW=Hauggy]

I dont even want to hear about it, to me theres already way too many things on the screen. Let alone floating icons.

Edited May 26, 2020 by =FEW=Hauggy

[Leon_Portier]

I´d be fine with that, limiting those markers to 500m or a little less sounds reasonable to me. I´d like to have the ability to turn it off by pressing i on my pc too, that would be nice.

[beresford]

2 hours ago, =FEW=Hauggy said:

I dont even want to hear about it, to me theres already way too many things on the screen. Let alone floating icons.

 

The suggestion was it would be an option to be turned on or off, not mandatory. Aces like yourself would be able to learn the silhouettes and be comfortable that the likelihood of being team-killed was reduced. As for the runways (Combat Box aside) it is NOT always obvious where they are, particularly in planes where there is a limited view from the cockpit, even with opening the window and sticking your virtual head out. I do play on sites where you navigate visually (even in the cases where this is not realistic, like a multi-crew bomber), though I am sometimes tempted to put a protractor to the screen to work out the flight angle to the target from the obvious landmark I've reached.

[216th_Jordan]

Custom Icons were a great thing in Il-2 1946. The more options the better, no need to fly on servers with options you don't like, no need to get fuzzed up about it.

 

[Zooropa_Fly]

This game badly needs a more flexible icons system. There's a great icons mod for SP, but most of the MP servers don't use them and I'm guessing wouldn't allow anything like that.

 

I'm with you about finding runways, I don't ww2 much - but when I do I never know which way to go.

Usually taxi to the wrong end ?

 

S!

[Stoopy]

What I like about this idea is that the near icons, as suggested being visible within ~600m, would be a great learning aid for those who need it most, and after a while those pilots would graduate to the level where they don't need them.  So it would be an effective tool for honing visual ID skills without the collateral damage that occurs when pilots are wrong. 

 

EDIT: to that point, maybe a way for the user to configure the distance that the "near labels" show up, like the way gun convergence is set, so that a beginner could start out at a max distance of (whatever's reasonable) and slowly wean farther and farther down to zero as they get better at ID'ing? 

Edited May 26, 2020 by =[TIA]=Stoopy

[Lusekofte]

DCS got this small v as a option. I use it when on lighter sp stuff 

it shows between panels too and that is bad. I am all for such aid on servers. But Servers running these aids commonly use everything simplified. And that render them useless for me

[40plus]

Yes please 

[blue_max]

Oh there are so many things I would want from a better icon system. Primarily to be able to tell who is AI and who is a real person, for when I'm flying online with my friends (we don't care about the details of how it was in real life, just want to efficiently find each other and fight).

[Nekhebu]

Having an option like that would be nice, however, as it stands the labels (triangles) are huge and they come with two rows of text above them. What I'd like is to also have an option of reduced labels that would only show small triangles without any text, kind of like DCS does it (they have a ^, which is a bit too thin for my liking but at least they're not as obscuring as the IL-2 labels).

[=FEW=Hauggy]

6 hours ago, beresford said:

 

The suggestion was it would be an option to be turned on or off, not mandatory. Aces like yourself would be able to learn the silhouettes and be comfortable that the likelihood of being team-killed was reduced. As for the runways (Combat Box aside) it is NOT always obvious where they are, particularly in planes where there is a limited view from the cockpit, even with opening the window and sticking your virtual head out. I do play on sites where you navigate visually (even in the cases where this is not realistic, like a multi-crew bomber), though I am sometimes tempted to put a protractor to the screen to work out the flight angle to the target from the obvious landmark I've reached.

Well put it like that I suppose more options couldn't hurt but they would have to be switched on and off server side and we would have to be able to disable them on our side too.

Believe it or not but friendly fire incidents happened in real life so that doesn't bother me at all for now. It might be an issue for you if you're using VR I've heard contacts were much harded to ID for VR users.

Come to think about it that's not unreasonable at all.

I'm actually for more options but a different kind, I wish we could have the tech indications that tell if you're on continuous, combat or emergency off but server side.

Edited May 26, 2020 by =FEW=Hauggy

[Talon_]

12 hours ago, =FEW=Hauggy said:

I'm actually for more options but a different kind, I wish we could have the tech indications that tell if you're on continuous, combat or emergency off but server side.

 

This was added in the last update

[=FEW=Hauggy]

6 hours ago, Talon_ said:

 

This was added in the last update

Pretty sure that also removes more vital stuff like rads position and mixture. I wish that was separated from the rest specifically, because its makes engine management way too easy and accurate.

Edited May 27, 2020 by =FEW=Hauggy

[SharpeXB]

The trouble with custom icons is that the feature would just divide up players online.

 

A “no” vote from me for colored dots or anything. IRL sometimes pilots had to get very close to visually ID just like in the sim. And friendly fire happened too. 

[Talon_]

7 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

IRL sometimes pilots had to get very close to visually ID just like in the sim. And friendly fire happened too. 

 

I think this is a poor excuse for lacking a simple QoL feature. Same way we don't feature aircraft failures due to unreliability which happened much more often than friendly fire.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Talon_

[Lusekofte]

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The trouble with custom icons is that the feature would just divide up players online.

 

A “no” vote from me for colored dots or anything. IRL sometimes pilots had to get very close to visually ID just like in the sim. And friendly fire happened too. 

No it would not. Problem with this icon system is the servers running it will have everything simplified and keep the base it have. And leave the rest of us outside as it is now. I would like a server like WOL to have this, Berloga. But I want full real option also

[SharpeXB]

34 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

I think this is a poor excuse for lacking a simple QoL feature. Same way we don't feature aircraft failures due to unreliability which happened much more often than friendly fire.

Well a dot would just be another form of custom icon. But it seems most players don’t like icons. Any form of icon is just unrealistic really, there’s no way to make a “realistic” icon. 

38 minutes ago, 216th_LuseKofte said:

No it would not. Problem with this icon system is the servers running it will have everything simplified and keep the base it have. And leave the rest of us outside as it is now. I would like a server like WOL to have this, Berloga. But I want full real option also

There’s only so many options that can be supported online by the number of players this game has. Look at the Technochat. In the end, with the choice, I see every server still running them. So what was the point of having a choice?

[Lusekofte]

3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

There’s only so many options that can be supported online by the number of players this game has. Look at the Technochat. In the end, with the choice, I see every server still running them. So what was the point of having a choice?

I think icons no matter how big will only be used in SP and those already have them. 
server opted tech chat silenced those wanting it and it is up to server owners to choose. Good thing. I am just happy we get to turn it off now by choice. This icon thing would be interesting to me in qmb and some light careers

[Talon_]

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

But it seems most players don’t like icons.

 

Most of this thread seem to think this is a good idea tbh.

[Stoopy]

3 hours ago, 216th_LuseKofte said:

No it would not. Problem with this icon system is the servers running it will have everything simplified and keep the base it have. And leave the rest of us outside as it is now. I would like a server like WOL to have this, Berloga. But I want full real option also

 

I think you just nailed it - YES this would be perfect on Berloga, WoL, Combat Box Training Server, and other servers along that line.  Wouldn't want it on regular Combat Box, Finnish Virtual Pilots or Jasta 5 and others of that ilk, but even the serious players on those servers should want this feature on the other "less real" servers since it will train new players to have better visual ID skills faster, and lessen the chance of friendly fire incidents once those players start dipping their toes into the '"hard stuff". 

 

Honestly seems like a win-win.  The only ones who would have something to lose would be experienced players that join the easy-mode servers just to beat up the newbies, and I'm sure we don't have any significant percentage of folks like that in our fine community... right?

[SIA_Sp00k]

I hope we never see it in Combat Box regular and that any server with it has it mentioned in the title so I can avoid it and I dont believe in turn on/off options based on players desires in the same server so that some have it and some dont.

 

I see the benefit for servers set up for those immediate instant action dogfights where you just want to shoot something, otherwise I hope this idea doesn’t infect exiting no icon servers.  There are other places pilots can go if they want them.

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Talon_ said:

 

Most of this thread seem to think this is a good idea tbh.

At this moment there are 329 players online. Only 1 out of the top 7 of those servers is running icons with 43 players. 
Only the “training” servers and the one “1CGS Normal“ run icons

So based upon that yes I’d say most prefer to not have icons. 

[[CPT]Crunch]

Hate to burst your bubble, but those long range lod's are nothing but little grey dots.  So your already using icons.

[Pikestance]

Well, servers are going to provide what people demand. There is nothing that can be said that is going to change that fact. 

However, the icon for planes is incredibly large. I am not sure why it has identify the plane when icons do not identify land objects. Maybe if the icon was just a triangle or dot like the land icon, and it didn't give a color ID, then you might have more servers willing to use them. 

 

Personally, I only use the icon in SP when i want to work on gunnery skills. 

 

As for experience players going after newbies; well, they will look silly on the stat page. Then again, watching some of these youtube personalities, they go on "expert" servers and they constantly shoot down unsuspecting pilots. it makes me wonder why people complain about AI controlled planes on MP servers. 

 

[Nekhebu]

On 5/27/2020 at 5:08 PM, SharpeXB said:

The trouble with custom icons is that the feature would just divide up players online.

 

A “no” vote from me for colored dots or anything. IRL sometimes pilots had to get very close to visually ID just like in the sim. And friendly fire happened too. 

 

I really struggle to understand why so many people in this community are against more options for people that don't want to or can't recognize planes by their silhouettes (or just want to play the game the way they want to). I sometimes even play with invincibility enabled just to have fun. I don't want to manage my manifolds, fuel mixtures and learn to recognize planes by flying close to them. I want to have an option(!) that I can enable that allows me to see who's a friend and who's an enemy without having a massive triangle and two lines of text next to it. It's either all or nothing in IL-2 and it would be nice if there was something in-between. 

 

The elitist attitude that a few are displaying in this thread is exactly why I'll never join online servers in IL-2 (while I'm happily playing with others in DCS).

Edited May 28, 2020 by Nekhebu

[[CPT]Crunch]

Well your missing out with the online servers, because your very wrong about the folks who inhabit them for the most part.  It's a mistake to lump people into stereotypes based on perception alone, many of them have the same view on icons as do you, and tons of great online players who have zero presence in these forums, its only the few who are emotive.

[Pikestance]

The community is a wide spectrum of players. There is clearly a large number f players who would play MP with icons on if such a server existed. I thought it did already. Despite the appearance, most MP are "gamers." That is, they are more interested in flying the best in a "balance" playing field. However, there are historical purist like myself. I don't know how many people like myself that prefer proper historical setting if there is an imbalance, then there is an imbalance. 

 

The problem with icons is that they are enormous. I had them on one time and i saw a squadron of bombers and i literally could not make out one plane because all i can see was the names. It was crazy. If the developers ever create a more practical icon,, then you might have more people willing to play MP with them on. I have a mod that converts them to a dot and in most cases, it is actually easier to spot the plane than the dot. What I find is interesting, is that iconphobes actually manipulate their graphics setting to essentially make the planes look like dots. Until the icons are implemented better, people will rather not have them and rely on luck/ skill of spotting without them. People prefer more realism in the sim, but the icon is the polar opposite. I don't think it is snobbery. It is clearly the lesser of two evils for some/ most. (who knows)

 

You have an extreme view of playing. I can remember when I first started playing, I got shot down, blacked out, spun to my death, heck I even accidentally ejected one time at least 30 times. I was shooting all awhile and I am certain I didn't hit a damn thing. Taking off was just as comical. I honestly don't know why I had so much trouble giving how "easy" it is. 

 

 

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, Nekhebu said:

 

I really struggle to understand why so many people in this community are against more options for people that don't want to or can't recognize planes by their silhouettes (or just want to play the game the way they want to).

I’m not against the idea of customized icons, I’m just not interested in them personally. And my opinion was that if the option existed, you probably wouldn’t end up with much choice online in any case. Likely your choice would still just be On or Off. 

2 hours ago, Nekhebu said:

The elitist attitude that a few are displaying in this thread is exactly why I'll never join online servers in IL-2

How is choosing to play without icons “elitist”? It’s the most popular setting in multiplayer. How can the majority be elitist?

[Talon_]

5 hours ago, Nekhebu said:

I'll never join online servers in IL-2

 

Well mate I hope you reconsider as I've been in agreement with the topic of this thread throughout and I'm also an admin of Combat Box, which is a server designed with accessibility in mind! We tried to set it up as a big catch-all in terms of player skill. It's not super hardcore like TAW and while we don't use GPS the layouts are intended to be navigable without.

 

If you wanted to dip your toe, the German planes have automatic throttles that operate on a single lever so you won't need to look at your manifold pressure. You could also try the Tempest which spends most of a sortie at 100% RPM, 92% throttle!

[kalbuth]

Even at 600m I can see some issues with icons. 1st is that they usually appear even when the plane is masked by your own plane frame, which leads to people spotting others when they should not be able to. So this would need to be fixed first.

Also, an icon is far easier to spot and that can lead to spotting something that you would not usually spot (I'm not talking about IDing and IFFing, but spotting the simple presence of a plane), even at 600m. I don't know how to solve this one properly, if that is ever felt as too much of an helper. Maybe making the icon slowly appear only after a certain time of the contact being in the central zone of the screen?

Ofc, if we all feel the close range spotting is lacking in the sim anyway, that could be a solution for everyone

 

All this is quite a lot more work than it seems on the surface, imho, if we want a proper implementation (and IL2 team seems to rarely go for a non proper implementation)

[216th_Jordan]

1 hour ago, kalbuth said:

Even at 600m I can see some issues with icons. 1st is that they usually appear even when the plane is masked by your own plane frame, which leads to people spotting others when they should not be able to. So this would need to be fixed first.

 

 

Icons disappear behind the frame.

[kalbuth]

OK, so that's the main thing tackled

[CountZero]

12 hours ago, Nekhebu said:

 

I really struggle to understand why so many people in this community are against more options for people that don't want to or can't recognize planes by their silhouettes (or just want to play the game the way they want to). I sometimes even play with invincibility enabled just to have fun. I don't want to manage my manifolds, fuel mixtures and learn to recognize planes by flying close to them. I want to have an option(!) that I can enable that allows me to see who's a friend and who's an enemy without having a massive triangle and two lines of text next to it. It's either all or nothing in IL-2 and it would be nice if there was something in-between. 

 

The elitist attitude that a few are displaying in this thread is exactly why I'll never join online servers in IL-2 (while I'm happily playing with others in DCS).

MP need to be just for few "experts", they dont get it that with that mentality they limit it so mutch that new players avoid it, unlike in games before where you had all kined of servers in this game you just have one type with minimal changes, others are forced to stay at WT for MP. Game loses and MP also as people who would start at "more user frendly places" would later maybe joined "experts". Less ppl playing MP less need to fix problems in it when only few "experts" play in it.

Edited May 29, 2020 by CountZero

[Mollotin]

If i understand correctly, some players want the near icons to better ID planes.

Reasonable point there. It would be nice to know wheter a plane 500m away is a friend or foe.

 

Fortunately we have tools for this already and thus i would not like to see near icons implemented. Now u tell me it would be optional. Well there is only 3 or 4 popular multiplayers servers. lets say 2 servers will use these icons if they get implemented. now that leaves us with 1 MP server that has no icons.

 

As i dont like the idea of icons, i would not like aforementioned happening.

 

U dont need to learn every plane to be able to ID friend or foe. Learn what a 109 and fw190 look like and u can most of the time tell if its friend or foe. is it really that hard? then if u can tell the italian plane apart from the rest u got the fighters covered.

 

The game provides us with great zoom so put it to use. But if u play on 14 inch laptop display or similar i can see why it could be very hard to id anything without icons.

 

 

Edited May 29, 2020 by Mollotin

[Raven109]

1 hour ago, CountZero said:

MP need to be just for few "experts", they dont get it that with that mentality they limit it so mutch that new players avoid it, unlike in games before where you had all kined of servers in this game you just have one type with minimal changes, others are forced to stay at WT for MP. Game loses and MP also as people who would start at "more user frendly places" would later maybe joined "experts". Less ppl playing MP less need to fix problems in it when only few "experts" play in it.

 

Well, casual servers and realism servers can co-exist without any issues. We don't all have to be bunched up in the same server. If there aren't enough casual servers, anyone is free to create one.

[Captain_Butters]

This is the whole simulator vs game debate. I would prefer and enjoy il2 more if it was more a game as I can't spot a thing! some prefer it to stay more like a realistic simulation as with their setups can see multiple contacts on the horizon. If they had the setup I have they would feel very differently. This argument or any suggestions will never be actioned on because of the status quo. That's why I just play sp or xplane now as there's no point even playing mp 

Edited May 29, 2020 by Captain_Butters