Question about expert videos and turning

[flagdjmetcher]

I love watching the IL-2 expert video channels and always learn something.  One thing I find really hard to apply or relate to though is just how successful they are with BnZ tactics.

 

In the videos, I see over and over kill shots where the aggressor is diving on someone and overtaking them quickly, yet somehow even after the victim reacts and starts turning, the aggressor is still is able to turn faster and pull lead. 

 

What I see in SP in this situation is completely different.  The AI defender can always pull inside my lead angle, leaving me at best a long distance snap shot.  Makes sense, too: they are slower, so they should be able to out-turn me.  Bottom line is I find it pretty unrewarding to practice BnZ tactics in SP.

 

So why don't the MP pilots  turn harder when defensive?  I get that it leaves you with low energy, but surely that's better than just soaking up the bullets.  Are the AI pilots just better at guns defense, or are the experts on MP doing something that I'm not seeing that's defeating that tactic?

[[CPT]Crunch]

Because the IA is reacting precise to your joystick inputs and data, it knows your energy state real time at all times, and knows live all your moves.  Live players can only estimate and guess at these things, and not many pilots are very good at calling energy states of their opposition.

Edited May 25, 2020 by [CPT]Crunch

[TCW_Brzi_Joe]

In multyplayer number one is to see enemy. That is not easy. Even with proper scanning all the time, some enemies will come undetected.

AI is  not real, it knows always your position.

[MattS]

9 hours ago, flagdjmetcher said:

I love watching the IL-2 expert video channels and always learn something.  One thing I find really hard to apply or relate to though is just how successful they are with BnZ tactics.

 

In the videos, I see over and over kill shots where the aggressor is diving on someone and overtaking them quickly, yet somehow even after the victim reacts and starts turning, the aggressor is still is able to turn faster and pull lead. 

 

What I see in SP in this situation is completely different.  The AI defender can always pull inside my lead angle, leaving me at best a long distance snap shot.  Makes sense, too: they are slower, so they should be able to out-turn me.  Bottom line is I find it pretty unrewarding to practice BnZ tactics in SP.

 

So why don't the MP pilots  turn harder when defensive?  I get that it leaves you with low energy, but surely that's better than just soaking up the bullets.  Are the AI pilots just better at guns defense, or are the experts on MP doing something that I'm not seeing that's defeating that tactic?

 

I have been working on my marksmanship and flying skills, against flights of 4 Stukas because they are slow enough that they can't run away, are harder to see than large bombers, and are really nimble when evading.

 

My experience has been the same as yours. As other guys have said, AI is fundamentally bogus and probably always will be...

 

1) They always know where you are...so their maneuvers are always selected based on that, and not out of uncertainty or to get/maintain sight of you. They know your exact range, so they can time their turns to begin at the optimal moment.

 

2) They know exactly where your potential bullet stream is pointed at all times, so they know to jink up or down or bank away from you (to shield the cockpit with a wing) when you are about to fire, even in situations where the pilot cannot physically see you.

 

3) They can fly perfectly...do whatever maneuvers the airplane (and pilot physiology) is currently capable of regardless of damage, morale/fear etc. They can precisely ride the edge of G-LOC. They do not appear to be affected by aircraft damage or pilot wounds the way that a human player would be in terms of potential to lose sight or control.

 

Edit: also, AI gunners are legendary for doing things that a human would not even try...like in the Stukas, shooting  between the tail and it's support strut, eliminating a blind spot.

 

***********

 

I suppose this all compensates for the fact that AI is not that clever or original like a human is...they just coldly follow whatever routines they are programmed to follow based on your position and speed. The net effect can be pretty frustrating because you rarely get the satisfaction of "beating" them in terms of catching them by surprise or confusing them which might allow you to really drop the hammer like you would on a human-controlled plane. They're always jinking and countering your moves so you have to settle for the best snapshots or longer range/high angle tracking shots that they are programmed to allow you to take.

Edited May 25, 2020 by MattS

[Raven109]

I don't think points 2 and 3 apply to this version of Il-2. In forgotten battles, yes as soon as you placed your sight on the enemy plane and were in shooting range, the defender would start jinking. Also in Il2GB the AI does G-LOC. Try going against a Tempest, you'll see him G-LOC-ing quite often, even if set to ACE.

 

10 hours ago, flagdjmetcher said:

What I see in SP in this situation is completely different.  The AI defender can always pull inside my lead angle, leaving me at best a long distance snap shot.  Makes sense, too: they are slower, so they should be able to out-turn me.  Bottom line is I find it pretty unrewarding to practice BnZ tactics in SP.

 

So why don't the MP pilots  turn harder when defensive?  I get that it leaves you with low energy, but surely that's better than just soaking up the bullets.  Are the AI pilots just better at guns defense, or are the experts on MP doing something that I'm not seeing that's defeating that tactic?

 

If the AI can always pull inside your lead angle it might be that you're coming in too hot, or that the enemy AI has a plane which turns better than yours. If you're coming in too hot, don't just pull on the stick towards the target, but level a bit out and pull out of the plane of the defender, then come back in (basically transform that energy into height, thus dropping speed, and also flying a longer path through the air, both of these lead to reducing your closure rate towards the defender - search for out of plane maneuvers: Hi/Lo YoYo, displacement roll, etc). How much you need to pull out of plane depends on a lot of factors, and getting it right comes with time.

 

Online pilots choose their tactics based on the plane they fly, the plane their enemy flies, the situation at the time of the merge and also on how comfortable they are when performing some maneuvers. If you know your plane cannot out-turn the attacker, then your next option is to try and extend and run, or to try and force an overshoot.

 

Video for Hi Yo Yo (you should really check-out this channel, it has a lot of good info on basic maneuvers):

 

Also, keep in mind, that usually the experts publish videos where everything has gone right, because it's usually more entertaining to watch. This will give you the impression that they always lead their target successfully, which is not the case. However, the experts will know more often than not, when a situation will allow them to pull lead and when to not even try and just push through the attack.

Edited May 25, 2020 by Raven109

[MattS]

2 minutes ago, Raven109 said:

I don't think points 2 and 3 apply to this version of Il-2. In forgotten battles, yes as soon as you placed your pipper on the enemy plane and were in shooting range, the plane would start jinking.

 

I wish I had  captured video of it, but yesterday I had a turning Stuka crossing ahead of me and was lined up to hose him down with fire when he yanked on the stick to pull his flight path up at the last moment. The timing was perfect. Likewise, often when I try to take a blind snapshot as he passes under my nose (after pulling a long lead and unloading for the shot), the AI will alter his flight path away from where I've aimed.

 

Now of course a good human pilot might do that, but the AI seems to be able to do it more consistently, whether you'd be visible to him IRL or not.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Raven109 said:

Also in Il2GB the AI does G-LOC. Try going against a Tempest, you'll see him G-LOC-ing quite often, even if set to ACE.

 

 

 

 

Yes, I have seen the AI G-LOC as well,not sure if that is by design or a bug. My point was that in general they can fly their avoidance routines precisely on the edge of what is sustainable, rather than blacking out a bit and then having to ease off. The net effect is that their aerobatics are surprisingly effective when coupled with the continuous awareness of your position and speed.

 

Unlike a human who chooses a maneuver and might have to wait to see how it works out (regain tally on his attacker) before doing the next thing, the AI constantly knows, instantly decides, and continually flies on the edge of its capability. It's robotic and gets annoying sometimes IMO.

[Raven109]

Ok, maybe my experience is different from yours. We get into a turning fight (which usually means that the AI is doing the same turn to the same side), I slowly gain on him, I get the lead and shoot. They never try to jink when I get close to shooting them.

 

The annoying thing for me is that they have the same 4 maneuvers:

a. If energy states are close, it does a continuous turn

b. Not sure about the trigger, but they do split-S's sometimes, when they get bored of turning

c. If the attacker AI has much more energy they will zoom up and then try to BnZ you;

d. Sometimes they attempt a ~45* dive while also doing a lazy jink

 

However, all these points seem to be futile, because even if they succeed in getting into a firing solution, they don't take the shot.

 

In Il21946 it was almost a guarantee for the AI to jink when you got close enough and your sight was almost on top of him. I'm talking here about dead six attacks. I'm not saying that this was better, but at least the AI back then seemed more interested in surviving.

Edited May 25, 2020 by Raven109

[MattS]

1 hour ago, Raven109 said:

Ok, maybe my experience is different from yours. We get into a turning fight (which usually means that the AI is doing the same turn to the same side), I slowly gain on him, I get the lead and shoot. They never try to jink when I get close to shooting them.

 

I agree with you here...they do sort of give up and take the hits when they're in a steady turn. All of the jinky stuff I have been talking about is when they are in their avoidance routine (max performance turns across your nose when you are trying to BnZ). Could also just be a Stuka thing.

 

1 hour ago, Raven109 said:

 

The annoying thing for me is that they have the same 4 maneuvers:

a. If energy states are close, it does a continuous turn

 

 

The turning does get annoying that is for certain!

[Velxra]

I agree with all of you here and this is all true honest information. However the real reason for such precision shown by a few "aces" has nothing to do with any of that. In fact, every flight simulator has this same trick to enhance your skill above the competition. That is enhanced hardware like a joystick extension, longer the joystick the more tiny micro adjustments you can make in flight. While a normal joystick user has to fight the planes in il-2 bobbing around with broadstroke movements. The joystick extension user can make micro movements within that bobbing motion of the plane. These people are pretty easy to pick out in videos because they can make small adjustments otherwise impossible for a normal joystick user regardless of skill or settings. The next and final enhance your skill hardware is quality wide rudder pedals. With a nice set of pedals they will also allow a finer control of movement. This allows for extremely better side to side precision and this is how most "aces" snag their kill in a deflection shot. Someone using cheaper plastic pedals close together in an up/down slide configuration is merely making a guess of the general movement needed to make the kill in comparison to what wide pedals provide.

In summary, if you pay $300+ per piece of equipment there are true advantages in precision from the machined steel and stronger springs. If you bought the cheaper plastic stuff like myself. You will always be at a disadvantage when in comparison to these pilots. Try to adjust your settings to get "closer" to what they can do. Though you will not match their capabilities regardless. So either buy the expensive stuff, endure close enough precision, or build your own equipment.

Either way, I hope this helps you all to see that skill is an important factor yes. But it plays a far less significant role if the user has wide pedals and a joystick extension. The only way for this discrepancy to be turned into a more equal playing field is by the devs altering the game itself.  Until plane nose bobbing or nose rubberbanding motion is reduced/removed in combat flight (without damage) really the plastic user will always have a silent handicap. As the enhanced user will always be able to easily make micro adjustments between the bobbing motion. 

 

EDIT: I may have stepped away from the direct topic. However this is a genuine aspect of deflection shooting and why shooting down perfectly balanced G turned AI planes is easier for some and far easier against real people in multiplayer.

Edited May 25, 2020 by Geronimo553

[SAG]

7 minutes ago, Geronimo553 said:

I agree with all of you here and this is all true honest information. However the real reason for such precision shown by a few "aces" has nothing to do with any of that. In fact, every flight simulator has this same trick to enhance your skill above the competition. That is enhanced hardware like a joystick extension, longer the joystick the more tiny micro adjustments you can make in flight. While a normal joystick user has to fight the planes in il-2 bobbing around with broadstroke movements. The joystick extension user can make micro movements within that bobbing motion of the plane. These people are pretty easy to pick out in videos because they can make small adjustments otherwise impossible for a normal joystick user regardless of skill or settings. The next and final enhance your skill hardware is quality wide rudder pedals. With a nice set of pedals they will also allow a finer control of movement. This allows for extremely better side to side precision and this is how most "aces" snag their kill in a deflection shot. Someone using cheaper plastic pedals close together in an up/down slide configuration is merely making a guess of the general movement needed to make the kill in comparison to what wide pedals provide.

In summary, if you pay $300+ per piece of equipment there are true advantages in precision from the machined steel and stronger springs. If you bought the cheaper plastic stuff like myself. You will always be at a disadvantage when in comparison to these pilots. Try to adjust your settings to get "closer" to what they can do. Though you will not match their capabilities regardless. So either buy the expensive stuff, endure close enough precision, or build your own equipment.

Either way, I hope this helps you all to see that skill is an important factor yes. But it plays a far less significant role if the user has wide pedals and a joystick extension. The only way for this discrepancy to be turned into a more equal playing field is by the devs altering the game itself.  Until plane nose bobbing or nose rubberbanding motion is reduced/removed in combat flight (without damage) really the plastic user will always have a silent handicap. As the enhanced user will always be able to easily make micro adjustments between the bobbing motion. 

 

EDIT: I may have stepped away from the direct topic. However this is a genuine aspect of deflection shooting and why shooting down perfectly balanced G turned AI planes is easier for some and far easier against real people in multiplayer.

 

I have a nice set of pedals and a 30cm joystick extension. sometimes I can hit a stationary target ?

 

I do think it helps, though i still believe that skill is the most important factor.

[BlitzPig_EL]

Another annoying tactic the AI love is the sniper shot while doing a head on attack, and then of course there is the Carlos Hathcock sniper AI rear gunner in the Stuka that can fire at angles that a human rear gunner cannot, all while the aircraft is maneuvering, and can hit with accuracy at 1km ranges and take out your engine with a bloody 8x57 Mauser round fired from an inaccurate fully automatic machine gun. 

 

I so wish it was possible to set the gunners ability level separately from the pilot's, so that the AI bombers will drop with some degree of accuracy, while the gunners would have believable behavior as well.

[Raven109]

46 minutes ago, Geronimo553 said:

I agree with all of you here and this is all true honest information. However the real reason for such precision shown by a few "aces" has nothing to do with any of that. In fact, every flight simulator has this same trick to enhance your skill above the competition. That is enhanced hardware like a joystick extension, longer the joystick the more tiny micro adjustments you can make in flight. While a normal joystick user has to fight the planes in il-2 bobbing around with broadstroke movements. The joystick extension user can make micro movements within that bobbing motion of the plane. These people are pretty easy to pick out in videos because they can make small adjustments otherwise impossible for a normal joystick user regardless of skill or settings. The next and final enhance your skill hardware is quality wide rudder pedals. With a nice set of pedals they will also allow a finer control of movement. This allows for extremely better side to side precision and this is how most "aces" snag their kill in a deflection shot. Someone using cheaper plastic pedals close together in an up/down slide configuration is merely making a guess of the general movement needed to make the kill in comparison to what wide pedals provide.

In summary, if you pay $300+ per piece of equipment there are true advantages in precision from the machined steel and stronger springs. If you bought the cheaper plastic stuff like myself. You will always be at a disadvantage when in comparison to these pilots. Try to adjust your settings to get "closer" to what they can do. Though you will not match their capabilities regardless. So either buy the expensive stuff, endure close enough precision, or build your own equipment.

Either way, I hope this helps you all to see that skill is an important factor yes. But it plays a far less significant role if the user has wide pedals and a joystick extension. The only way for this discrepancy to be turned into a more equal playing field is by the devs altering the game itself.  Until plane nose bobbing or nose rubberbanding motion is reduced/removed in combat flight (without damage) really the plastic user will always have a silent handicap. As the enhanced user will always be able to easily make micro adjustments between the bobbing motion. 

 

EDIT: I may have stepped away from the direct topic. However this is a genuine aspect of deflection shooting and why shooting down perfectly balanced G turned AI planes is easier for some and far easier against real people in multiplayer.

 

Yes, this is correct if you want to be an extreme expert (one that can consistently take down other human experts). However, I'd say that it's not necessary for dealing with the AI. A lead turn can be performed with any joystick, doesn't have to be the most precise. Most mistakes with lead turns occur because the attacker gets greedy, and thinks only about getting that shot, instead of setting himself up for a better position, if the current one is not the best for taking said shot.

 

Anyway, more precise aiming can be achieved by changing your hardware's curves, so that they are less steep in the ranges where you operate the most. I think you might have a guide on this, which can be used by the OP.

Edited May 25, 2020 by Raven109

[cardboard_killer]

1 hour ago, SAG said:

I do think it helps, though i still believe that skill is the most important factor.

 

I watched IFlyCentral's videos for years now, even before owning the game, and for most of that time he was using a CH yoke and CH pedals, and getting perfect accuracy with them. I think personal skill is much more important than high end hardware.

 

For example:

 

 

 

[SharpeXB]

6 hours ago, Geronimo553 said:

The only way for this discrepancy to be turned into a more equal playing field is by the devs altering the game itself.  Until plane nose bobbing or nose rubberbanding motion is reduced/removed in combat flight (without damage) really the plastic user will always have a silent handicap.

Stick extensions are hardly the only factor. There is a response curve setting in the game which you can use to dampen the effect of a shorter stick or tune the sensitivity to your preference. I very much doubt they will change how the sim interprets stick inputs

though. 

 

The best explanation from the Devs on this subject:

https://riseofflight.com/forum/topic/2564-about-wrong-elevator-position-and-pitch-sensitive/?p=22055

Edited May 25, 2020 by SharpeXB

[flagdjmetcher]

I guess also my point was not so much about why the AI is so great/crap/whatever, but why human pilots don't fly more like that when defensive.  It clearly works against me.  What are the experts doing that means it won't work against them?  I know I should just get online and find out , but I feel like I should at least be able to pull off a bounce (or at least a high-speed pass) occasionally in SP before venturing online.  So far my success rate is 0%, hence this post.

 

9 hours ago, Raven109 said:

 

Ok, maybe my experience is different from yours. We get into a turning fight (which usually means that the AI is doing the same turn to the same side), I slowly gain on him, I get the lead and shoot. They never try to jink when I get close to shooting them.

 

 

Yes, same.  In a sustained close-in turning fight I can usually pull lead and get a shot.   I interpret that as being due to the fact that down on speed, altitude and energy they're kind of out of options.  It's how I get most of my kills in SP, but feels kind of invalid for MP.  

 

9 hours ago, Raven109 said:

If the AI can always pull inside your lead angle it might be that you're coming in too hot, or that the enemy AI has a plane which turns better than yours. If you're coming in too hot, don't just pull on the stick towards the target, but level a bit out and pull out of the plane of the defender, then come back in (basically transform that energy into height, thus dropping speed, and also flying a longer path through the air, both of these lead to reducing your closure rate towards the defender - search for out of plane maneuvers: Hi/Lo YoYo, displacement roll, etc). How much you need to pull out of plane depends on a lot of factors, and getting it right comes with time.

 

 

Yep, maybe I'm overestimating how hot and how in-plane the experts are.  I've noticed in Central's videos with the control overlay he's sometimes throttling right back when diving in, so when he pulls out of the dive speed scrubs off quickly.  I also think maybe they are anticipating a bit in a way that's hard to see in the videos, maybe loading up the control surfaces that fraction earlier so that although the nose is yet to swing noticeably, they have in fact already entered the turn.  Just speculating here.

 

I do try out of plane maneouvres, pretty bad at at it still but occasionally I string one together.  My experience is that each time I bring my nose back on for the shot, well, as above - the AI just cranks around a bit more and gets out of the sight picture.  It's like the moment I'm not in their circle they open it up a bit so they have the option to pull it in again to evade.  If I counter that and pull well inside their line, they reverse and again, they're slower and can turn tighter.  We can go back and forth like this half a dozen times.  It's just that last half-second before the shot when it all goes wrong.  Oh well, it's the challenge that we love..

 

[[CPT]Crunch]

When you say its that last half second, is your wrist and hand tightening up into a death grip?  Fairly common thing, that can be a big factor, you can train yourself out of it, try flying with fingertips only if your stick is light enough on the pull.  That's a good technique to steady out and relax, pretty sure that most newer pilots suffer this mainly on the trigger pull, I certainly did way back when.  You can always test yourself out by temporarily assigning the trigger to throttle, just like in the Zeke.  Don't forget to breath.

 

AI has it's uses for good training in the quick mission, you just have to figure out how, shake it up a bit.  My latest fav is 8 v 1, don't go against the hot rods, I'll take four A-8's slap some armor and racks, full fuel, and add four 109-G6's with full fuel.  Start the mission 2000 meters apart, and at least 1000 above head to head.  AI are stupid, they tend to keep their programmed altitude, so they can't quite figure out to simply out climb us and kick our arses.  Maintain your advantage, and snap shoot away, they will keep presenting nicely.  Don't pick or pursue, perch and wait, its like fishing in a barrel.  If it doesn't work so hot, up your advantage a bit and lessen the crowd some. 

 

Learn to furball first/shoot, next survival/defense, than your ready to become the mighty hunter.

[216th_Jordan]

Being relaxed is the most important thing. Next is spatial awareness. Before I fire I completely zoom out to get a better understanding about the movements in play, then I usually aim for a point the enemy would fly through and shoot and pull lead when the plane moves into that spot. Another thing is to fire short bursts - always fire short bursts.

 

Aside from that I usually only shoot when I see that my attack run is proper, either for a snapshot or for a leadshot, if it is not I will try and reposition again.

 

Hardware plays a role, but more for hitting exact spots. With the cheap hardware I had before I could usually hit along the fuselage of enemy planes quite well, now I usually try to snipe specific parts like wings, engines, fuel tanks etc.

[357th_KW]

On 5/24/2020 at 8:12 PM, flagdjmetcher said:

I love watching the IL-2 expert video channels and always learn something.  One thing I find really hard to apply or relate to though is just how successful they are with BnZ tactics.

 

In the videos, I see over and over kill shots where the aggressor is diving on someone and overtaking them quickly, yet somehow even after the victim reacts and starts turning, the aggressor is still is able to turn faster and pull lead. 

 

What I see in SP in this situation is completely different.  The AI defender can always pull inside my lead angle, leaving me at best a long distance snap shot.  Makes sense, too: they are slower, so they should be able to out-turn me.  Bottom line is I find it pretty unrewarding to practice BnZ tactics in SP.

 

So why don't the MP pilots  turn harder when defensive?  I get that it leaves you with low energy, but surely that's better than just soaking up the bullets.  Are the AI pilots just better at guns defense, or are the experts on MP doing something that I'm not seeing that's defeating that tactic?

 

MP pilots don't have perfect SA, a rangefinder and a perfect gauge on your closure rate.  Visibility is a HUGE struggle for most in multiplayer.  In many cases someone is maneuvering because they are watching another airplane, getting ready to setup their own attack, trying to navigate etc.  In some cases they are just turning due to a break call on chat (it's very common for players to call out 666 on general text chat with no other info, leaving every player on the team wondering if its them that is getting bounced).  Likewise, keep in mind that no one is posting the video of the sortie where they bounced a few planes only to find them to be friendlies, or where all the bad guys got away.  But that kinda stuff happens all the time.

[MarderIV]

AI really needs to adhere to OODA and visibility rules. It's my one and only hope for AI to, if not implement it, rather come close to it. Observing the differences between planes and flights with varying skillsets or veterancy in Command Modern Operations via TacView, you get a real sense for how much of an impact decision making and awareness has on AI fights. Combat regularly develops into interesting and believable engagements; something that the SP experience in Il-2 sorely needs I think. 

 

The development of AI here with those kinds of constraints would likely extend beyond just having the ability to pounce on unaware aircraft. Seeing a merge happen in CMO with one non data-linked flight being less skilled and the other more skilled non data-linked one , even the issue of deciding whether or not a contact was hostile was simulated and affected reaction times and how it defended itself. 

 

There's a lot of room for AI improvements here that would lend to more authentic fights, so I've got my fingers crossed that it's more than just developing or implementing libraries of BFM for the AI to follow. That even their combat behavior would be extended as well, illusory or otherwise.