Undercariage dampeners.

[312_Ofce]

I have big concerns about authenticity of undercariage simulation as it is now. Of course, estimating height in PC monitor is much bigger challenge than in real life. I see problems with my proper flare height when I look on my landing replays. But still I doubt there is proper damper simulation. I never had such big problems with landings before in other flight sims (CLOD, Il-2, WT). Even on very soft landings my Yak tends to jump very offten in the air. It feels to me like there are no dampers, but rather rigid gear like on biplanes, that bounces my aircraft back in the air.

 

Do you have any advice how to improve my landigs and make them "safe"? Or do you also think that the undercariage simulation should be improved?

Edited May 2, 2014 by 312Ofce

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I absolutely agree the rebound damping is under modeled. It has improved in the last fee weeks but yes, it still needs work. It never crossed my mind about your biplane comparison but considering the ROF herritage this would not surprise me.

 

On the other hand, make sure you are in a three point landing configuration in all of the single seat fighters. It is critical and the nose needs to be much higher (visually) than any other simulation I've ever flown. Any two point landing will result in a large bounce or a full Pilot Induced Oscillation. I didn't correct PIO until I diagnosed my landing videos pretty closely.

 

The bounces of 109's on YouTube do indicate it can bounce fairly often. The bounces appear to be much gentler waves and not as jarring as in BOS.

[Panzerlang]

I'm landing the 109 in CloD and BoS the same now, making sure the horizon goes across the canopy at the same place it's at when parked and my landings are near faultless. Both planes thump down nicely with the BoS one bouncing a tad higher. The CloD 109 needs the stick held right back until near standstill, in which case little or no brakes and/or rudder are required.

 

The summary though: nose right up, a lot further than feels right. That's what cracked it for me.

[Sternjaeger]

for what real life experience is worth, this is BY FAR the most accurate representation of how suspension and dampeners react in real life, this is something that often bugged me in the old IL-2 and other sims and which detracted a lot from the overall realism, because these aircraft could often be landed carelessly. 

Majority of the runways on the sim now are from concrete strips, so the landing will have to be extra perfect to come out smooth, as a hard surface will bounce you back more, but if you take off or land from a snowy field you'll already see the difference, which per se is an outstanding achievement in simulation. 

 

The best way to make your landings "safe" is to come down at the right speed, learn to flare at the right time and try again and again and again. 
A good landing is one of the most recurrent bugs of real life pilots as well, as it's not often as smooth as you'd think: it's like kicking a penalty, you know the theory and it's simple enough, but you need to train to perfect it. 

[Gort]

 

The best way to make your landings "safe" is to come down at the right speed, learn to flare at the right time ....

 

 

Flare? What is this "flare" phenomenon of which you speak? Real men do not flare!

 

Good advice on practice and speed control. One should be precise, do some analysis and adjust speeds dependent on fuel and load. The runways in this sim are not inordinately long, so the need for precision is more evident.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I've found, through careful analysis (bent gear and wings) that you can slightly blow it on both speed and flare. As long as you make the three

point, they will settle down nicely after a few bumps. The aircraft are pretty hardy and forgiving of minor mistakes but will bite you hard if truly mishandled.

[Sternjaeger]

Flare? What is this "flare" phenomenon of which you speak? Real men do not flare!

hehehe better that than doing it wrong: once I took up an airline pilot who wanted to do a refresher on the C172, everything went smooth until we came down for landing, and he started flaring at 10mt off the ground! We had a MONUMENTAL smack on the runway, fortunately it was a grassy one!

 

Good advice on practice and speed control. One should be precise, do some analysis and adjust speeds dependent on fuel and load. The runways in this sim are not inordinately long, so the need for precision is more evident.

yes, and once you master that learn how to behave with elements of crosswind, with different fuel loads, weapons etc...

Edited May 2, 2014 by Sternjaeger

[312_Ofce]

Well thanks for an advice. I was trying to land on front wheels only, as the three point landing was impossible to survive in earlier builds.

 

Now I can land plane on three points, dont damage airplane, but I can still not get to situation when the airplan does not rebound at all. In early build I was able sometimes to smoothly land on front wheels and gradualy slow down without rebound. I dont find it normal that aircraft ALWAYS rebounds 1-2 times before settle on ground. When I look at replay I see that my airplane slowly descents and as soon as it touches the ground it is pushed back with nearly equal force that does not seem apropriate if there were dampeners.

 

Can anyone post here replay where he lands smoothly without jumping single time?

[Sternjaeger]

The first advice I can do is to try and reduce your approach speed.

If that doesn't fix it, the first thing you want to know is at what speed your aircraft stalls, so gain some altitude, open all your flaps and landing gear, reduce throttle to idle and gently lift the nose a bit until you start stalling. Make a mental record of that stall speed, remember you don't want to be that slow when approaching, but 30km/h or so faster. The point of doing a flare is to basically have a controlled stall on top of the runway itself, but being so low that the aircraft will gently touch the ground and decrease its speed instead of bouncing you up again. 

It's easier to show than to explain really!

[oneeyeddog]

Well thanks for an advice. I was trying to land on front wheels only, as the three point landing was impossible to survive in earlier builds.

 

Now I can land plane on three points, dont damage airplane, but I can still not get to situation when the airplan does not rebound at all. In early build I was able sometimes to smoothly land on front wheels and gradualy slow down without rebound. I dont find it normal that aircraft ALWAYS rebounds 1-2 times before settle on ground. When I look at replay I see that my airplane slowly descents and as soon as it touches the ground it is pushed back with nearly equal force that does not seem apropriate if there were dampeners.

 

Can anyone post here replay where he lands smoothly without jumping single time?

312Ofce, Here is a link to Requiems video on landing in a crosswind. 

 

 

All of these Requiems Tutorials are required viewing in my opinion. Here is a link to other BoS tutorials.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/requiembos

[312_Ofce]

312Ofce, Here is a link to Requiems video on landing in a crosswind. 

 

 

All of these Requiems Tutorials are required viewing in my opinion. Here is a link to other BoS tutorials.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/requiembos

Tx, I know that video - it is from early build. Today it does not work this way...

My aproach speed is 220kmph, before touchdown I have aprox 180 and today Yak with full flaps keeps rebonding even at 150 kmph...

[Sternjaeger]

too fast mate! You need to bleed the speed somehow. Remember, you don't have to put the aeroplane on the runway, you have to bring it to the right spot so that it lands itself on it.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Sternjaeger

[Requiem]

Tx, I know that video - it is from early build. Today it does not work this way...

My aproach speed is 220kmph, before touchdown I have aprox 180 and today Yak with full flaps keeps rebonding even at 150 kmph...

Well I just tried landing in the Yak using 200km/hr approach and 150km/hr touchdown speed like in my famil video. This was the first attempt and I had no bounce back into the air. From my experience, the earlier builds showed more tendency for aircraft (particularly the Yak-1) to bounce in the air upon landing compared to the later builds...

 

Here is a video of it for you:

 

Edited May 2, 2014 by SYN_Requiem

[312_Ofce]

Nice example. Better than thousand words. Tx a lot. 

 

With "rebounding" I ment those small jumps that are seen also at your video. My expectations were that the dampeners and momentum of the airplane will not let the hull shake that much.

Edited May 3, 2014 by 312Ofce

[Brano]

This is my approach to problem discussed

[312_Ofce]

This is my approach to problem discussed

lol

Edited May 3, 2014 by 312Ofce

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 Brano, how in heck did you do that?!  Locked tailwheel I presume and the plane decided to bellyflop?! 

[PB0_Foxy]

this is due to the keybinds of those 2 functions !

Shft + G for the tailwheel

G for the landing gear

 

Sometimes you want to lock the tailwheel and may be because you didn't press both keys exactly in the same time your landing gear is retracting.

 

Best option to avoid that. Change the default keybinding for one of those functions

[Brano]

Tail wheel fixation in my setup is mapped to Shift+W.I suspect damage model.After my uber lame landing right wheel just did not stand it anymore and colapsed   

[312_Ofce]

And how about crosswind landings. There you have to land on wheels rather than 3 point.

I tried now what I see on Requiems landing  crosswind tutorial:

 

 

I am not able to land that smoothly - aircraft likes to rebound a lot...

Edited May 4, 2014 by 312Ofce

[=CFC=Conky]

Hello all,

 

My first couple of landings were pretty rough, being used to IL2 1946 handling characteristics but after a few tries I can get down in one piece, at least with the single-engined kites. Having flown taildraggers in rl, I find BoS to be a pretty fair simulation of how it's done.

 

Good hunting.

[Requiem]

And how about crosswind landings. There you have to land on wheels rather than 3 point.

I tried now what I see on Requiems landing  crosswind tutorial:

 

 

I am not able to land that smoothly - aircraft likes to rebound a lot...

I'll try a few crosswind landings and upload them later for you, but just so you know... It took me a couple of weekends to get the landings you see in that video. It wasn't easy because of the bouncing tendency.

[312_Ofce]

Tx a lot Requiem for testing it.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I prefer crabbing into the wind and kicking rudder to straighten out at the end of the flare for landing. There are other techniques and I'll let Requiem or others detail them.

[Soarfeat]

Maybe this will help a little with the landing flare. Try not looking immediately past the nose of the plane at the ground during the flare or in taking off for that matter, but rather view on down the runway ( I usually look 3/4 of the way down or more if possible ) to keep the plane aligned and also better judge the plane height above the runway and proper attitude as speed bleeds off. Sort of like in driving,you don't look right over the front of the car as you drive you are scanning on down the road ( or at least I hope you are --ha !! ) 

Also, as in real life, every landing is not going to be perfect without a bit of bouncing, it happens, to me it is how you correct if you do bounce a bit that is important. I know when I am usually landing a plane in multiplayer I either have a smoking engine with bullet holes all over the plane or even have a piece of wingtip missing  or no engine running at all so I am just happy to get it down in one piece if possible  ( I know this certainly exposes what a lousy fighter pilot I am, however I'm not too proud to admit this--- )

cheers--sf--

[Requiem]

Like HerrMurf I prefer crabbing over sideslip the whole way. Here are two crosswind landings with the Yak-1, the first is with Flaps extended and the second is without. The crosswind was 10 m/s from right to left. I did a few of these and never crashed, but I tried to get a decent wheels down landing for you without serious bouncing back into the air.

 

 

I try to generalise the procedures as much as possible in my tutorials, so I doubt that build changes will make them out of date.

Edited May 4, 2014 by SYN_Requiem

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

Landing seems fine to me. Maybe too much vibration on tail wheel when slowing down after touch down.

 

 

People here need a flight standard / sop manual to realize what they are doing wrong.

[312_Ofce]

Tx Requiem. Your videos show everything I need to train my landings. Subscribed to your YT chanel, looking forward to see more tips and tricks.

[siipperi]

I haven't had any problems landing in BOS, just take your time when doing approach. No need to bang the plane to the runway. Just "hover" few meters on the runway and let plane to stall to ground.

[oneeyeddog]

The majority of bad landings I've made can be attributed to excessive speed and being too stubborn/stupid to abort and go around to try again.

[Crump]

Try slips to land.

 

Bank the wings into the wind enough to eliminate wind drift.

 

Step on the High Wing!!  Add enough rudder by stepping on the high wing side to keep the nose aligned with the runway.

 

Add a bit of power to decrease your descent rate to match a normal non slipping decent to land.

 

Sounds complicated but it is not in practice.  What I do is pick a spot in front of where I want the wheels to touchdown. 

 

For example, aim for the numbers or the runway threshold.  Keep that spot in the same location in the windshield.  If it rises, your going to undershoot, if it falls, you will overshoot.  If it is not moving, you are heading straight for it.

 

Just keep using angle of bank into the wind and rudder to align the nose with the required amount of power to keep that spot in the same location at Vref.  From there it is a normal landing.  Elevator for airspeed and power for rate of descent.  When you enter ground effect, pull the power and flare to a 3 point attitude.  That is the same sight picture you have when taxiing. 

 

Look down the runway and not at the nose of the airplane or out the side.  If you can't see just keep your eyes where the end of the runway was and resist looking at the nose of the airplane or the gunsight.  Use your peripheral vision (if you have track IR) to keep centered on the runway, don't look out the side as you will go where you look.  Keep the nose aligned with the rudder and control drift with bank until the wheels touch.  Do it right and you will hear two squeaks of the tires.  The upwind tire will touch down first followed shortly by the downwind tire.

Edited May 7, 2014 by Crump