What have they done

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, 1_Robert_ said:

I'd suggest either eliminate zoom and Snap views in 2D or find a way to give them both to VR users. 

No. It’s not fair to handicap everyone else in the sim because you’re using VR. Nobody is forcing you to use VR...

[RedKestrel]

27 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

A Rift S is only $400. Cheaper than a 4k monitor and TrackIR, or all current IL-2 Great Battles packages including FC & TC.

Yeah, Once you start looking at big high-res/ high-refresh rate monitors, they are comparable in price. That's probably why so many people still game on 1080p/60Hz.

Also TrackIR is REALLY screwing people with their pricing, there's no way it should cost almost as much as a full-on VR headset.

The real cost is not the monitor or the headset, its the GPU/CPU to drive it.

[Nibbio]

2 minutes ago, 216th_LuseKofte said:

I got work injuries / issues after fall myself. My point is “do not use it)

Your logic is flawed. In the civilized world we try to enable people with disabilities to live as normally as possible and enjoy the same experiences of the 'normal' folks.

[Lusekofte]

1 minute ago, Nibbio said:

Your logic is flawed. In the civilized world we try to enable people with disabilities to live as normally as possible and enjoy the same experiences of the 'normal' folks.

No that is simply not how it works. You do not buy equipment you can not utilize 

that is stupid

[Chief_Mouser]

24 minutes ago, Nibbio said:

And pray tell why we should give a rat's ass?

 

You shouldn't. But neither should folk that can't afford something be penalised by having their perfectly good equipment nerfed to please someone else who can. You have to agree that 1_Robert's suggestion was stupid, at least, and arrogant at best?

Edited May 21, 2020 by 216th_Cat

[Nibbio]

IMO no one should be penalized; right now those that are penalized are VR players, because of two main issues:

- An ineffective zoom view

- The impossibility of checking six without ridiculous acrobatic maneuvers

 

Both issues do not exist for 2d players, and should not exist for VR players as well.

[Hawk-2a]

4 minutes ago, Nibbio said:

The impossibility of checking six without ridiculous acrobatic maneuvers

Time to attend yoga classes then.

[Nibbio]

Just now, H_Stiglitz said:

Time to attend yoga classes then.

Sorry, I prefer the heavy bag.

Also I don't like to workout when I pretend to play fighter pilot.

[von_Tom]

 

The issue isn't really VR versus Track IR, but parity for all.  VR users will only increase so it makes sense for them to be factored in, no matter if they are only 5% or 10% (or a tiny percentage) of the player base.  If that means taking away the rear 20% of visibility that sounds fine (more real perhaps).

 

Getting back to my point - should something like Reshade be made mods on only?  It seems that anything that affects the game but is accessible without mods-on mode, should be made mods on only.  It almost doesn't matter that it may be benign or not.

 

I'm curious at the rationale behind leaving some things allowed and some not. 

 

von Tom

 

 

[Raven109]

11 minutes ago, von_Tom said:

 

The issue isn't really VR versus Track IR, but parity for all.  VR users will only increase so it makes sense for them to be factored in, no matter if they are only 5% or 10% (or a tiny percentage) of the player base.  If that means taking away the rear 20% of visibility that sounds fine (more real perhaps).

 

Getting back to my point - should something like Reshade be made mods on only?  It seems that anything that affects the game but is accessible without mods-on mode, should be made mods on only.  It almost doesn't matter that it may be benign or not.

 

I'm curious at the rationale behind leaving some things allowed and some not. 

 

von Tom

 

 

 

Regarding your curiosity about reshade... reshade works in VR as well, and it (hopefully) works the same as it does on a normal display. The MOD was working (as showcased in the original thread) "better" than desired on normal displays. Also, no one complained about reshade giving a huge advantage to some players, not that I know of, so it didn't receive as much attention.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Raven109

[1_Robert_]

33 minutes ago, 216th_Cat said:

 

You shouldn't. But neither should folk that can't afford something be penalised by having their perfectly good equipment nerfed to please someone else who can. You have to agree that 1_Robert's suggestion was stupid, at least, and arrogant at best?

 

Thanks. Nothing in my post was negative to anyone or putting anyone down. Why would you jump in insulting me when you disagree with my opinion?

 

Affordability of hardware has nothing to do with this discussion. There are many ways to enjoy the game, for me it's the competition with real players online. I like stats and winning...etc Everyone is different and I understand others don't care for that type of thing. Currently there is an advantage for 2D players where they can see at a greater distance and can snap their view rearward instantly. Both advantages play a significant role in performance. Those that play a lot competitively know this. I'm of the opinion that it would be better for parity here, regardless of the hardware setup one uses.

 

 

[Lusekofte]

45 minutes ago, Nibbio said:

IMO no one should be penalized; right now those that are penalized are VR players, because of two main issues:

- An ineffective zoom view

- The impossibility of checking six without ridiculous acrobatic maneuvers

 

Both issues do not exist for 2d players, and should not exist for VR players as well.

It was made perfectly clear that they would make this sim compatible with VR 
and that was it. When people bought it they knew exactly what they was bargained for. 
Most people here or at least many cannot afford more than a 20$ stick and that is it. 
Devs got a tight budget because majority cannot afford a expensive game. 
And you feel penalized? 
Do you comprehend what you write? 
Do you understand the level of arrogance you showing?

PM Jason and ask him how much he want for that fix, a fix unique from all other sims. 
Better yet go and write that in ED forum. They have the same. And you see what a ban is

Edited May 21, 2020 by 216th_LuseKofte

[Wazoo-VR]

If I had one wish, it would be a server without zoom for *any* players, but a marker that pops on an aircraft at a definable distance; say 1km or less that indicates friend or foe without telling you what model it is. 

 

As a real-world pilot, I can ID any aircraft within 1SM.... so having a friend or foe indicator will allow me to simulate what would happen in real life without trying to simulate real-world spotting on monitors and HMD's.  

 

[von_Tom]

2 minutes ago, 216th_LuseKofte said:

...

Personally speaking when I bought BOS VR was in the distant future. 
 

Things and times change. VR is a new technologically that will be adopted more and more. It makes sense to allow for it. If that means upping the realism then so be it. 
 

von Tom

[Redwo1f]

12 minutes ago, 1_Robert_ said:

 

I'm of the opinion that it would be better for parity here, regardless of the hardware setup one uses.

 

 

 

But others have the opinion that this shouldn't be the case. I guess the developers have to decide if it is fair, reasonable, and makes sense in both resources, time, finances and philosophy to make changes for what is likely the smallest group of players in the entire game (multiplayer VR users -- and the developers certainly know the truth as to what consumer group is the smallest if the general public does not) at possibly the expense of others. 

 

I am not going to make that decision - they will have to decide. There are valid points both ways. You have expressed your view, others have expressed their's. Jason and company are going to have to sort it all out.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Redwo1f

[Lusekofte]

Owl neck os not upping the realism. 
and people flying with trackir for years

are now in vr like me want to deny trackir users owl neck is hypocrisy. That is what we talking about. A self endured purchase and now sounds like victims. 

[von_Tom]

Just now, 216th_LuseKofte said:

Owl neck os not upping the realism. 
and people flying with trackir for years

are now in vr like me want to deny trackir users owl neck is hypocrisy. That is what we talking about. A self endured purchase and now sounds like victims. 

Or to put it another way - to up the realism we need to remove the owl neck. 
 

That the owl neck has been ever present does not mean it is right. 
 

Adopters of new technologies that promote realism should not be prejudiced against because of historic inertia about a “gamey” feature. 
 

An interesting conundrum. 
 

von Tom

[Nibbio]

28 minutes ago, 216th_LuseKofte said:

Better yet go and write that in ED forum. They have the same. And you see what a ban is

 

No they don't. VR spyglass zoom. This 2nd level of zoom for VR was introduced more than one year ago. And you should know it since you play it.

Or maybe you didn't notice? ?

 

[Lusekofte]

I am talking about owl beck feature that is op point of view

32 minutes ago, von_Tom said:

Or to put it another way - to up the realism we need to remove the owl neck. 
 

That the owl neck has been ever present does not mean it is right. 
 

Adopters of new technologies that promote realism should not be prejudiced against because of historic inertia about a “gamey” feature. 
 

An interesting conundrum. 
 

von Tom

Did you complain when using trackir?

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, von_Tom said:

 

The issue isn't really VR versus Track IR, but parity for all.  VR users will only increase so it makes sense for them to be factored in, no matter if they are only 5% or 10% (or a tiny percentage) of the player base.  If that means taking away the rear 20% of visibility that sounds fine (more real perhaps).

No it’s not “fine” to take away functionality from 90% of the players to placate the other 10%. You wanted virtual reality and now you’re complaining about the reality. ?
 

According to the Navigraph survey VR players account for about 10% in flight sims and that has remained flat for the last two years. It’s not exactly growing then. 

[von_Tom]

43 minutes ago, 216th_LuseKofte said:

Did you complain when using trackir?

 

I can't see that I've complained about it.  It would nice to have parity but that's it.

 

Before VR there was no point in raising an objective if I'd wanted to - everyone was in the same position whether they used Track IR or hat switch.  That is not true now though.

 

3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

No it’s not “fine” to take away functionality from 90% of the players to placate the other 10%. You wanted virtual reality and now you’re complaining about the reality. ?
 

According to the Navigraph survey VR players account for about 10% in flight sims and that has remained flat for the last two years. It’s not exactly growing then. 

 

I can't see that I'm complaining but if you want to jump to that assumption it's fine.  For what it's worth, I don't play enough in pvp to care particularly one way or another - I'd suck at it anyway.  The more I think about it the more that Reshade bothers me especially as it is a mod that can run in mods-on mode.

 

But to run with your argument - if I were jumping up and down about the owl neck situation then I'd actually be complaining about the lack of reality, wouldn't I.

 

10% in flight sims is higher than I'd have thought.  Quite a hefty chunk of the player base though.  It'd be interesting to know if the two years reflects upgrade cycles rather than adopting new tech.  That plus waiting for higher resolution and so on.

 

von Tom

[Kola_US]

What I have found the most interesting thing for VR users is this...

You guys have been using this mod for a long long time quietly  having a long-range zoom advantage against other 2d users. It's a fact that you could use 10x and even higher zoom to spot as far as no any 2d pilots could including identifying those lods from more than 10km away. And knowing that using VR reflects very nature head movement you can easily increase zoom to 10x for stable and accurate spotting so you can go in when it's a certain win and avoid the fight when it's dangerous or risky. And once one person found it and brought it up in some forums including TAW, you started shaming and disgracing him and calling him a liar, etc saying you could only zoom in to 5x and that's it just to get in pair with 2d users.

And now you all say is that 2d guys can use 5x zoom, and you only need to use 5x in that mod, really?))) 

Looks like you guys are real hypocrites. You should have asked IL2 devs to deal with it before being able to use it for a long time consistently getting advantage over 2d pilots all this time!!! If migoto mod hadn't got available for 2d users, hell knows how long you would have continued using it trying to hide all very good benefits for VR users blaming other 2d users that this mod only equals your chances instead of giving you pure advantage over 2d pilots in spotting and identifying others.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Maverick_VVS

[von_Tom]

10 minutes ago, Maverick_VVS said:

What I have found the most interesting thing for VR users is this...

 

My understanding is that the zoom levels in 3DGimoto give VR users the equivalent zoom to what 2D users have already in-game. It also counteracts the lack of ability to ID that VR users suffer from. 
 

It also gave 2D users a phenomenal zoom level but that is a different issue. Alternate visibility brings its own problems that compounds the issue. 

Not really quietly using an incredible advantage. 
 

The VR limitations have been known for a long  time as had the fact that this mod could be used mods-off.

 

It’d be a good idea for you read through the main thread about this to understand the issues rather than chucking phrases around like hypocrisy etc. 

 

von Tom

. 

[Lusekofte]

1 hour ago, von_Tom said:

can't see that I've complained about it.  It would nice to have parity but that's it.

With VR you can with effort look back. If trackir had 1:1 they cannot look at the screen  when looking back. 
you ask for worser gameplay for other users than VR. 
I find the idea of making other people position worser than what I have questionable at best. 
I can see it beneficial for a server for vr users only. It will accommodate people concerned only about justice that benefit themselves 

Edited May 22, 2020 by 216th_LuseKofte

[Kola_US]

1 hour ago, von_Tom said:

Not really quietly using an incredible advantage. 

I think you need to learn to understand what the mod is capable of first before trying to make your arguments for pros and cons of the mod.

I tried to use this mod and played with all different settings. I tried to use different zooming for all 3 available keys, and was able to use up to 20x and still got stable enough picture to id and follow the target till close distance switching from 20x (found a lod taking off 30km away from AF) to 10x and then to 3x (set for low zoom) zooming to keep at the same time the con visible and the area around it in order not to miss any unexpected planes around it. I was able up to trace the plane and the air around it to make sure it's safe to attack until I got into the close combat and took it down. I did it to repeat the experience posted in TAW forum, and it worked perfectly and completely safe for me. Plus VR has much better visual on target flying low above the ground in compare with 2d monitors so it's much easier in VR to follow the target against any background. And within 2km distance between planes, it's almost impossible to lose enemy because the con in VR looks much bigger because of low VR resolution so it's easy to follow and at the same time to look around without being afraid to lost this contact. Shooting in VR also is much better and accurate than on 2d monitor but I guess that might be subjective and reflect only my experience.

As mod solves long distance (no problem to find and id very long contacts way beyond the 10km official con rendering distance) and check 6 issues, you simply can't compare using monitor and VR. VR users got clear, undebatable and huge advantage vs 2d users up until very recent time when this mod became available for 2d users as well.

See below the fragment of the default settings for zooming that can be modified for your own convenience...

[Key1]
;set  low zoom on
$zoomFactor = 1.5                           

[Key2]
;set med zoom on
$zoomFactor = 5.0

[Key3]
;set high zoom on
$zoomFactor = 10.0
Again, I wasn't against this mod, I was really pissed off seeing how quiet it was before for a long time while VR users used this mod and got a clear advantage against 2d users instead of bringing dev eyes to this problem for a proper fix. As an example, being able to spot and id other planes beyond 10km officially announced rendering range is simply cheating and looks disgusting for 2d community so after being able to cheat on other non-mod users for so long time they have no moral ground to blame IL2 devs for disabling this mod or even asking them to switch it off for 2d users so that only VR users can use it.

I am done with it, no more comments on my side as I understand it's useless to argue with people who used this mod for couple years, got very comfortable with it, got very nice benefits in compare with other pilots, and all of sudden lost that advantage; and NOW VR users demand fair play from IL2 devs.

I just wanted to bring it up so that people can see and evaluate all pieces of the problem, and probably understand why producer decided to disable it until it's properly researched and addressed so some features wouldn't be exploited by only one side as it seems VR people have no problems for getting unofficial advantage and call it fair play.

Edited May 22, 2020 by Maverick_VVS

[Beazil]

1 hour ago, Maverick_VVS said:

What I have found the most interesting thing for VR users is this...

You guys have been using this mod for a long long time quietly  having a long-range zoom advantage against other 2d users. It's a fact that you could use 10x and even higher zoom to spot as far as no any 2d pilots could including identifying those lods from more than 10km away. And knowing that using VR reflects very nature head movement you can easily increase zoom to 10x for stable and accurate spotting so you can go in when it's a certain win and avoid the fight when it's dangerous or risky. And once one person found it and brought it up in some forums including TAW, you started shaming and disgracing him and calling him a liar, etc saying you could only zoom in to 5x and that's it just to get in pair with 2d users.

And now you all say is that 2d guys can use 5x zoom, and you only need to use 5x in that mod, really?))) 

Looks like you guys are real hypocrites. You should have asked IL2 devs to deal with it before being able to use it for a long time consistently getting advantage over 2d pilots all this time!!! If migoto mod hadn't got available for 2d users, hell knows how long you would have continued using it trying to hide all very good benefits for VR users blaming other 2d users that this mod only equals your chances instead of giving you pure advantage over 2d pilots in spotting and identifying others.

Please don't troll the thread.  I am tired of having this argument with people unwilling to engage in an actual discussion instead of slinging shite and trolling.  This ridiculous thinking needs to end as does his persecution complex.  I'd explain a fourtieth time why he is getting the results he is but that would require listening, understanding and trust.  I'm not getting that from this post at all.  It's a reason why the last discussion stopped.  We really don't want that again, so I'm asking you nicely to please think before you type this stuff.  Thank you.

[von_Tom]

19 minutes ago, 216th_LuseKofte said:

With VR you can with effort look back. If trackir had 1:1 they cannot look at the screen  when looking back. 
you ask for worser gameplay for other users than VR. 
I find the idea of making other people position worser than what I have questionable at best. 
I can see it beneficial for a server for vr users only. It will accommodate people concerned only about justice that benefit themselves 

 

In order:

 

No, because the viewing is different.  You can get close, but it hurts and it is considerably harder.

No - gameplay is what you make of it which is why some will game the game with settings and Reshade etc.  TIR advantages are fine if that's how you want to play.  It'd be very interesting to see what would happen with restricted rear visibility though.

Not worse - different, and in no way more worse than what you have in VR.

Nice sideways insult but that doesn't wash, unless you are also saying that everyone who doesn't have VR is trying to keep justice that benefits themselves also.

Whichever way you cut it, Track IR users are ahead of VR users in terms of competitive play.  C'est la vie.

 

13 minutes ago, Maverick_VVS said:

I think you need to learn to understand what the mod is capable of first before trying to make your arguments for pros and cons of the mod...

 

 

I've used it but only for the stock zooms.  The rest of it is ignored.  I had no idea you can get to 20x zoom though.  But, are you using it in 2D or in VR? My assumption from your posts is that you do not use VR (correct me if I'm wrong) and the zoom level in 2D is way above the zoom that is posisble in VR.

 

von Tom

[Beazil]

I guarantee 99 percent (give or take whatever number you want ) of VR pilots are ALSO trackir pilots.  Anyone with a VR headset with more than a year if experience in VR who has not also used trackir?  *raises hand and looks around the room*.

Let's not actually turn this into a real trackir vs. headset thing please.

I'ma gonna shut up because I hear myself sounding scolding.  Just wanna keep us on topic and not heading down the wrong path.

Now that I think about it I *think* reactions like mine and the ones I've highlighted are the reasons the thread was closed and since I really need to exercise a bit more self control, I'll be quiet and just listen. 

Edited May 22, 2020 by JG51_Beazil

[SharpeXB]

59 minutes ago, von_Tom said:

You can get close, but it hurts and it is considerably harder.

Of course real pilots can look at their six. It just requires more effort and you can’t simulate that in a PC game.