What have they done

[1_Robert_]

Great job on another big update, the work the devs have done is amazing and appreciated. BUT... I'm a die hard il2 flyer and a 30+ year flight simmer. Today was the most disappointing moment in my years with the hobby to find they handicapped all online VR users.

 

Getting VR a few years ago elevated this hobby to a whole new level for me, a complete game changer. When I discovered VR I immediately bought every Il2 module available, I even bought Tanks and Flying Circus to support the devs even though I don't play them. The hobby was again a passion.

 

I play online nearly every day now and having the zoom mod made play more on par with non VRers- it's an essential. I fired up the new update today to see it's gone. I'm speechless. I guess that's the end of the hobby, just like that.

 

To have parity with 2D players, we need the same Zoom view and a snap CheckSix view. Or eliminate these for 2D players. 

 

Edited May 21, 2020 by 1_Robert_

[Beazil]

Here is a link to the current discussion.

I am not posting this to derail your thread; just to redirect you.  We really need civility on this topic, imho, so I'm not encouraging you to vent either.  Just to show you this topic exists.

[1_Robert_]

Ok Thanks. Yes agree we shouldn’t vent or complain. After all the devs are obviously to develop the game as they see fit. 
 

I just wanted to state that this may lose them some VR players. 

15 minutes ago, JG51_Beazil said:

Here is a link to the current discussion.

I am not posting this to derail your thread; just to redirect you.  We really need civility on this topic, imho, so I'm not encouraging you to vent either.  Just to show you this topic exists.

 

[[CPT]Crunch]

No need to be upset or panic, it would have gone down any way.  No way anyone could have gotten the mod patched to fit a completely reworked rendering system in a quick fashion unless they were working with the team.  So you'd have been buggered regardless.

[SAG]

I'm confused. Did 3dmigoto get banned or did it just break as it does with every (major) patch?

[Talon_]

28 minutes ago, SAG said:

I'm confused. Did 3dmigoto get banned or did it just break as it does with every (major) patch?

 

The discussion thread is deleted but the mod is not technically banned.

[=WoVi=Defbond]

Since I can't play this anymore as VR user should I be looking for a refund or hang out in the hopes of there being a fix? I have an opportunity for a short while to get a refund on Steam but if nothing will be done I don't want to lose it. If there is no communication from the Dev team for a fix I think it's time to move on which is sad but I'd rather have my money back and invest it into another game rather than use up hard drive space for something I can't play. 

I think the OP hit the nail on the head, in my 30 years of playing flight sims this has got to be one of the biggest blunders I have ever seen. 

[Mewt]

 

1 minute ago, Defbond said:

Since I can't play this anymore as VR user should I be looking for a refund or hang out in the hopes of there being a fix? I have an opportunity for a short while to get a refund on Steam but if nothing will be done I don't want to lose it. If there is no communication from the Dev team for a fix I think it's time to move on which is sad but I'd rather have my money back and invest it into another game rather than use up hard drive space for something I can't play. 

I think the OP hit the nail on the head, in my 30 years of playing flight sims this has got to be one of the biggest blunders I have ever seen. 

 

5 hours ago, 1_Robert_ said:

I'm a die hard il2 flyer and a 30+ year flight simmer. Today was the most disappointing moment in my years with the hobby to find they handicapped all online VR users.

 

Getting VR a few years ago elevated this hobby to a whole new level for me, a complete game changer. When I discovered VR I immediately bought every Il2 module available, I even bought Tanks and Flying Circus to support the devs even though I don't play them. The hobby was again a passion.

 

I play online nearly every day now and having the zoom mod made play more on par with non VRers- it's an essential. I fired up the new update today to see it's gone. I'm speechless. I guess that's the end of the hobby, just like that.

 

 

Oh stop getting your knickers in a twist chaps.

New render engine = Luft's mod currently broken. Like it breaks with every update.

Luft will scratch his head to work it out, like he always does.

I agree that his (or any) 5x or 10x is essential for multiplayer VR users. But this wasn't an intentional sabotage by the devs.

[=WoVi=Defbond]

16 minutes ago, Mewt said:

I agree that his (or any) 5x or 10x is essential for multiplayer VR users. But this wasn't an intentional sabotage by the devs.

So hold off for a fix, do not ask for refund is your advice? I really want to do this if you think this was the case because I would like to keep the game if I can play it.

[Barnacles]

45 minutes ago, Defbond said:

 in my 30 years of playing flight sims this has got to be one of the biggest blunders I have ever seen. 

I've told you a million times never to exaggerate.

[=420=Syphen]

41 minutes ago, Mewt said:

 

 

 

Oh stop getting your knickers in a twist chaps.

New render engine = Luft's mod currently broken. Like it breaks with every update.

Luft will scratch his head to work it out, like he always does.

I agree that his (or any) 5x or 10x is essential for multiplayer VR users. But this wasn't an intentional sabotage by the devs.

 

It wasn't intentional sabatoge, no. It broke due to deferred shaders and Lefuneste usually fixed these things within a week or two after a release; What IS different this time is the mixed messages that have been sent. After a small but vocal group of 2D users complained incessantly that 3dmigoto was a cheat/hack, Jason decided to remove the 3dmigoto thread and ban further discussion of it on the forums, dropping hints that it may break the EULA and thus not permitted (but if it does, then so does ReShade, as it uses similar techniques to hook into the game but the devs explicetly said it was fine). 

In locking the request thread to improve VR zoom with a bit more magnification, and ideally adjustable convergence for different HMD's (I've read that Pimax5k are unuseable at all with the stock VR zoom).. Jason has left us with a message that could be read as "We aren't going to stop anyone from using a fixed version of 3dmigoto.. but don't talk about it".. So that will maybe give people a little more hope that it may be fixed. They can go fly DCS or play some other games for a couple weeks till a fix is made possibly.  No one wants to be stuck in a limbo of not knowing if we will get this fixed up. As others have mentioned simming can be a passion - and when you've gone deep down the VR road it's not really possible to see yourself going back.

[von_Tom]

The entire 3DGimoto thread appears to have disappeared too.

 

It is disappointing but it is what it is, and we'll just have to wait until it is resolved or some kind of announcement is made to confirm what will be done.

 

As it is, the mod did seem to do away with the technical issues that may have prevented the devs from developing a zoom for VR users equivalent to 2D zoom, so maybe they can work together on it to give VR users an equivalent zoom to 2D but within the game itself rather than via a mod.

 

von Tom

[Raven109]

Some of you might wanna see the last post (Jason's) in this thread:

 

 

[A_radek]

Migoto fixed one of the major disadvantages vr players had in a competitive online environment. Many went vr because this mod/fix finally helped level the playing field.  It really is a big issue, likely larger than what the devs thought as the vr crowd today is huge and just had their chair pulled out from under them. I fully understand the strong emotions and putting a lid on so many voices can work,,, but usually has the opposite effect.

[=420=Syphen]

28 minutes ago, Raven109 said:

Some of you might wanna see the last post (Jason's) in this thread:

 

 

 

I think @SixGuns hasn't seen that post yet. 

[Hoots]

7 hours ago, 1_Robert_ said:

I'm a die hard il2 flyer and a 30+ year flight simmer. Today was the most disappointing moment in my years with the hobby to find they handicapped all online VR users.

 

Getting VR a few years ago elevated this hobby to a whole new level for me, a complete game changer. When I discovered VR I immediately bought every Il2 module available, I even bought Tanks and Flying Circus to support the devs even though I don't play them. The hobby was again a passion.

 

I play online nearly every day now and having the zoom mod made play more on par with non VRers- it's an essential. I fired up the new update today to see it's gone. I'm speechless. I guess that's the end of the hobby, just like that.

 

Blimey, talk about cutting your nose off to spite your face. Take a breath and read it back, you might see why it seems a bit of an over reaction. 

[Talon_]

1 hour ago, SixGuns said:

This is not what he said and you should be careful to interpret in your own bias way Devs' statement.

 

 

[FTC_Cule]

Why is everyone going ballistic with them negative waves?

 

VR mods (and manty 2d mods) are broken and rightfully so because the renderer got changed, which forms the foundation for such mods.

 

Devs have taken no steps to mess with the VR experience. Give the modders enough time and I am sure they will revisit their products to use the new renderer. I am sure that everything will be back to normal soon enough. 

[[DBS]Browning]

1 minute ago, ACG_Cule said:

Give the modders enough time and I am sure they will revisit their products to use the new renderer. I am sure that everything will be back to normal soon enough. 

 

That might be difficult as the modders may not discuss such mods in public on the forum right now.

[Hoots]

4 minutes ago, [DBS]Browning said:

 

That might be difficult as the modders may not discuss such mods in public on the forum right now.

Jason has expressly asked for them to discuss with him so I’m sure something will return. Maybe people should just chill a teensy bit. 
 

[[DBS]Browning]

7 minutes ago, Hoots said:

Jason has expressly asked for them to discuss with him so I’m sure something will return. Maybe people should just chill a teensy bit. 
 

 

I'm not sure if anything will return or not.

However, you are certainly right that now isn't the time for pitchforks, hyperbole and drama.

 

Now is the time to wait and see.

[Barnacles]

4 minutes ago, [DBS]Browning said:

However, you are certainly right that now isn't the time for pitchforks, hyperbole and drama.

 

I don't think there's ever a time for pitchforks, hyperbole and drama.

Anyway, there's at least one MP server that'll go mods on in order to use the zoom mod if necessary, so as long as all these fretful people survive the trauma, they'll be able to ID stuff in MP in short order.

[[DBS]Browning]

10 minutes ago, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

I don't think there's ever a time for pitchforks, hyperbole and drama.

 

Absolutely agree.

 

10 minutes ago, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

so as long as all these fretful people survive the trauma

 

Errr...bit of hyperbole there. ?

[Barnacles]

Just now, [DBS]Browning said:

 

Absolutely agree.

 

 

Errr...bit of hyperbole there. ?

A thousand pardons!

?

 

[von_Tom]

 

I confess to being a tad confused about what constitutes a mod or cheat.  On one hand 3DGimoto is perceived as a cheat (and I can understand that if you use it in 2D it can be) but I don't understand why any other change is allowed when it works with mods off, for example Reshade.  If that gives a spotting advantage is that not a cheat too?

 

This is more of an existential question about Reshade rather than a complaint though.  I can understand how people may like it for reality's sake, but if it can convey an advantage it seems a bit off.

 

von Tom

[Nibbio]

Not a minute of my time, nor a cent out of my pocket, until there is a decent VR zoom, as well as a VR checksix snapview.

Wake me up when they deliver...

[1_Robert_]

3 hours ago, Nibbio said:

Not a minute of my time, nor a cent out of my pocket, until there is a decent VR zoom, as well as a VR checksix snapview.

Wake me up when they deliver...

 

The CheckSix is a good point as well. I'd suggest either eliminate zoom and Snap views in 2D or find a way to give them both to VR users. 

 

PARITY is all we're after.

[Giovanni_Giorgio]

3 hours ago, von_Tom said:

 

I confess to being a tad confused about what constitutes a mod or cheat.  On one hand 3DGimoto is perceived as a cheat (and I can understand that if you use it in 2D it can be) but I don't understand why any other change is allowed when it works with mods off, for example Reshade.  If that gives a spotting advantage is that not a cheat too?

 

This is more of an existential question about Reshade rather than a complaint though.  I can understand how people may like it for reality's sake, but if it can convey an advantage it seems a bit off.

 

von Tom

ReShade can be used both as a benign color adjustment tool and abused as a blatant cheat giving a gigantic advantage in spotting over vanilla settings. Depends on the check boxes one ticks.

Edited May 21, 2020 by mincer

[ACG_Invictus]

Everything can be used to cheat.  Why not just ban everything, mincer?   Would that make you and the rest of the "cheaters everywhere" group happy?

 

I sure hope you are happy when you see the multiplayer population decline.  Because it will.

Edited May 21, 2020 by ATAG_Invictus

[Beazil]

Let's not over react.  And face it, we don't want cheating allowed either.  The anti mod guys have a point if it can be abused.  Lefuneste is doing his best I am sure.  We have no idea what is going on behind the scenes so let's all take a deep breath and chill.  And who knows what the team may or may not do. They will not base decisions on threats from users and they should not - anymore than they will acquiess to trolling from the vocal minority.  They walk an incredibly fine line I think perhaps only other developers or people in a similar position would understand.  I'm not one of them so I have to go on what we know.  We don't know alot but we know it isn't banned, and it is being addressed.  Give them time is all I'm saying.

[von_Tom]

5 minutes ago, ATAG_Invictus said:

Everything can be used to cheat.  Why not just ban everything, mincer?   Would that make you and the rest of the "cheaters everywhere" group happy?

 

I sure hope you are happy when you see the multiplayer population decline.  Because it will.

 

I took his comment as an objective one saying it can be good or bad, but it depends how it is used.

 

I am more interested in the criteria that one assigns to a potential cheating tool - is it a cheat simply because it is a mod that can be used mods off, or is it a cheat if it can provide a demonstrable advantage over someone who doesn't use it.

 

Personally I don't use Reshade and I don't care  if someone else does, but it throws into sharp relief the question of what a cheat actually is, and by extension how 3DGimoto was portrayed especially because it could be used mods off.

 

von Tom

[Giovanni_Giorgio]

Let me clarify my comment about ReShade. I don't say it should be banned. I don't say that everybody using it are cheaters, or that all monitor/VR/mobile phone users are. What I see with ReShade is that there are some shaders in it that from my point view have very profound effects on the gameplay. 

[Beazil]

And your point is well taken.

[Chief_Mouser]

24 minutes ago, 1_Robert_ said:

 

The CheckSix is a good point as well. I'd suggest either eliminate zoom and Snap views in 2D or find a way to give them both to VR users. 

 

PARITY is all we're after.

 

A hell of a lot, if not most, of the continuing 2d monitor users haven't gone towards VR because THEY CAN'T AFFORD IT! Where's your supposed parity here? 

[Talon_]

24 minutes ago, 216th_Cat said:

 

A hell of a lot, if not most, of the continuing 2d monitor users haven't gone towards VR because THEY CAN'T AFFORD IT! Where's your supposed parity here? 

 

A Rift S is only $400. Cheaper than a 4k monitor and TrackIR, or all current IL-2 Great Battles packages including FC & TC.

[Lusekofte]

I laughs everytime I see a poor VR user cry over not being able to look behind like they used to with trackir. 
And yet they still choose to fly VR. 
Now they spend a lit of time licking their wounds over not being able to use a zoom mod on facebook. They aint ever going to fly GB again. 
wish it was true, this community is full of drama. 
btw I use Rift S

23 minutes ago, 216th_Cat said:

 

A hell of a lot, if not most, of the continuing 2d monitor users haven't gone towards VR because THEY CAN'T AFFORD IT! Where's your supposed parity here? 

hope you take the leap some day. But only real treat compared to screen is sensation of being in the pit. Sense of depth. Rest is not so much. 
I never had the hallelujah experience I read other places. Rift S is cheaper than a good screen

[Redwo1f]

14 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

A Rift S is only $400. Cheaper than a 4k monitor and TrackIR, or all current IL-2 Great Battles packages including FC & TC.

 

Luxury items  - don't forget that (including cpu requirements in order to run VR effectively as well). Some people don't have the extra $ for that sort of thing (especially nowadays). Also others experience motion sickness, etc - or just don't like the feel or experience.

[Nibbio]

16 minutes ago, 216th_LuseKofte said:

I laughs everytime I see a poor VR user cry over not being able to look behind like they used to with trackir. 

You shouldn't laugh.

Some people are old, some have disabilities.

Some people would just like to enjoy the game the way they want, and not turn it into a workout, just because some wanker can't take the heat in multiplayer

[Lusekofte]

9 minutes ago, Nibbio said:

You shouldn't laugh.

Some people are old, some have disabilities.

Some people would just like to enjoy the game the way they want, and not turn it into a workout, just because some wanker can't take the heat in multiplayer

I got work injuries / issues after fall myself. I am old relative.  My point is “do not use it)

if you do not like it. It is just so , that many cannot drive cars or walk because of disability. I refuse to petty people that buy a hardware and then want everybody else to accomodate them

And I choose to fly it in VR and by that accepting the advantages along with disadvantages. In turret of A 20 I can owl swivel my head like in trackir

Edited May 21, 2020 by 216th_LuseKofte

[Nibbio]

51 minutes ago, 216th_Cat said:

 

A hell of a lot, if not most, of the continuing 2d monitor users haven't gone towards VR because THEY CAN'T AFFORD IT! Where's your supposed parity here? 

And pray tell why we should give a rat's ass?