K-4 missing inset adjustable trim tabs

[Roland_HUNter]

I first met with this missing thing in this book:
Messerschmitt Bf 109 F, G, & K Series: An Illustrated Study by Peter Rodeike, Jochen Prien

 

Then I saw it in War Thunder (But not working ingame):

 

And today I found a historical document about it:

 

So now I'm 100% sure  it was real.It would be great to be in the game, the K-4 would have aileron trim.

(I know the red trim tabs are already in the game for rudder/aileron trim what was adjustable in real life on the ground)

 

Based on this picture, It was maybe worked like a Flettner-tab?

 

Same picture with better zoom:

 

Looks like it was adjustable, it had the same "mechanism" like the P-40 aileron trim:

Sincerely,
Roland_HUNter

Edited May 12, 2020 by -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter

[RedKestrel]

Were they adjustable by the pilot or only adjustable on the ground?

[Roland_HUNter]

I found no information about that yet.

But If I guess, it was adjustable by the pilot.(But if its right we have to find: where the pilot could do that in the cockpit)
They already had a red trim tab since the first Bf-109, what was adjustable only on the ground.
Why they would make another trim tab what is only adjustable on the ground aswell?

Edited May 12, 2020 by -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter

[ZachariasX]

I thought these were servo tabs installed on some few aircraft and not trim tabs.

 

Edit: I have yet to see an in cockpit photo showing an aileron or rudder trim wheel.

Edited May 12, 2020 by ZachariasX

[LLv34_Flanker]

S! 

 

Those were Flettner-tabs, not trim tabs. Similar what the higher rudder assembly had. Installed to help with high stick/pedal forces. Trim was adjusted on ground with the bendable tabs(red ones) based on test flight and desired speed, usually cruise 300-400km/h.

[Roland_HUNter]

Then I hope they ll modelling it into the game, make the K-4 roll faster then.

[ZachariasX]

11 minutes ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

Then I hope they ll modelling it into the game, make the K-4 roll faster then.

That was not standard issue. It could be a mod.

 

It may not be just positive, as controls have to be balanced at all speeds. Just making them light at high speeds can have adverse effects at low speeds. We would need more specific info on how they affect control.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

Looking into K-4 photos I could find only one which had them clearly visible, and many others without it apparently. Also in some photos they didn't have the retractable tailwheel, sometimes G-10 style or G-14 style fixed tailwheel, some of these without the main landing gear full covers too, these K-4s would have speeds similar to the G-10s for example.

Edited May 13, 2020 by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

[LukeFF]

6 hours ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

Also in some photos they didn't have the retractable tailwheel, sometimes G-10 style or G-14 style fixed tailwheel, some of these without the main landing gear full covers too, these K-4s would have speeds similar to the G-10s for example.

 

Yes, apparently the retractable tailwheel assembly was problematic, so the tailwheel was often left locked down as a workaround. 

[Kurfurst]

7 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

Yes, apparently the retractable tailwheel assembly was problematic, so the tailwheel was often left locked down as a workaround. 

 

I cannot find recorded issues with it, but indeed the main wheel well covers are often missing on early examples and the rear tailwheel seems to be in a locked down position.

 

I tend to believe that was simply a winter mod out of practicality (you do not want undercarriage failures due to mud freezing in the wheel wells), given the aircraft was introduced in the muddy/snowy season. Such removals of covers was commonplace on the Eastern front as well during he winter.

[Raven109]

21 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

That was not standard issue. It could be a mod.

 

It may not be just positive, as controls have to be balanced at all speeds. Just making them light at high speeds can have adverse effects at low speeds. We would need more specific info on how they affect control.

 

Well, the servo tab is described in the November '44 issue of the Bf109K4 manual. So it wasn't a "field" mod. More like a factory specific implementation. From what I gather not many K4s had them. Even if they tried to model them, there doesn't seem to be any roll rate data w/ wo/ the tabs.  

 

 

 

 

[MiloMorai]

Aileron Flettner tabs were few and far between. There has been many discussion on them in the past. Pilots found that precision flying with them was difficult, but that could be because the pilots were used to non Flettner equipped a/c. 

[Roland_HUNter]

Yes now its 100%  certain it was a tab:
The Messerschmitt Bf 109 (Part 2) F to K Variants by Lynn Ritger

[III/JG52_Otto_-I-]

Flettner-tabs or servo-tabs of ailerons were introduced in G6 series. This is one of the few photos in what we can see an aileron flettner tab in a Bf-109 G6 flyed by Hptm. Alfred Grislawski.



 
P.S.
Hakenkreuz diluted for respect to policy rules.
 

Edited June 16, 2021 by III/JG52_Otto_-I-

[sturmkraehe]

On 5/12/2020 at 6:12 PM, Roland_HUNter said:

I first met with this missing thing in this book:
Messerschmitt Bf 109 F, G, & K Series: An Illustrated Study by Peter Rodeike, Jochen Prien

 

Then I saw it in War Thunder (But not working ingame):

 

And today I found a historical document about it:

 

So now I'm 100% sure  it was real.It would be great to be in the game, the K-4 would have aileron trim.

(I know the red trim tabs are already in the game for rudder/aileron trim what was adjustable in real life on the ground)

 

Based on this picture, It was maybe worked like a Flettner-tab?

 

Same picture with better zoom:

 

Looks like it was adjustable, it had the same "mechanism" like the P-40 aileron trim:

Sincerely,
Roland_HUNter

The red metall pieces are likely to have served as classical trim tabs and would have to be set on ground. 

 

On 5/13/2020 at 5:44 PM, Roland_HUNter said:

Then I hope they ll modelling it into the game, make the K-4 roll faster then.

I think we need to distinguish between optical implementation of these tab inclinations and their effect on the implemented roll rate. It is well possible that the implemented roll rate already accounts for them. 

 

Anyhow they are more helpers to reduce stick forces. They don't increase aileron inclination and hence don't increase maximum roll rate potential. One would not like to have that anyway because aileron deflection angles are limited otherwise issues with wing structure could ensue.

Edited June 16, 2021 by sturmkraehe

[Roland_HUNter]

On 6/16/2021 at 11:32 PM, sturmkraehe said:

Anyhow they are more helpers to reduce stick forces.

So at higher speed: faster, easier to roll.

Same on the high tail G-14/K-4 Rudder. The germans introduced the fletner tab for it aswell.