Why a Kursk map?

[senseispcc]

Why a Kursk map?

 

1. It is the next big battle after the battle of Stalingrad. There were numerous other battles but not as important or with a fixed front.
2. There could be many scenarios; winter Soviet advance, German counter offensive and creation of the Kursk salient, the stale mate and preparation of the future battle, the battle itself, then the Soviet offensive with the German withdrawal.
3. The planes of Kursk air battle are the same than those of the battle of Stalingrad with some new models or new armament but less so than many of us think or hope for. New models yes, new planes no!
4. I am not a expert but it seems manly flat or nice rolling flat hills terrain and devoid of big cities with the exception of Kharkov (this depends how you define the map).  The map could also be cut in two parts south and north if you desire tactical maps from north to south that where the German offensive axes during the battle.
5. Now a not so good news, the air battles during the Kursk battles in July 1943 where huge, not some little four to four encounters but big battle with some times more than four hundred  or more planes in one air battles. Also preventive air strike against airfields from either side was a common practice. The two sides had radar for the first time, US military sources.

So I hope one day, one year or in the future to see a Battle of Kursk air battle game!

[Felix58]

The Kursk air battle was large by any standard.  The following extract gives a summary of the air battle.

 

Aircraft losses on the southern flank were 97 German aircraft to the Russians’ 707. Between 5 and 11 July on the northern flank, the Germans lost 57 aircraft and the Soviets 430. The huge imbalance was largely due to the greater experience and aggression of the German pilots. The Germans also used self-propelled light anti-aircraft guns to accompany their tanks and infantry in the front lines, something that the Russians did not do. The German Stuka squadrons lost eight of their best pilots— all Knight’s Cross holders— in the fighting, sounding the death knell for the Stukas as a major combatant for the remainder of the war, steadily but quickly replaced by the Focke Wulf 190 in the ground-attack role.

 

Bagdonas, Raymond (2014-01-19). The Devil's General: The Life of Hyazinth Graf Strachwitz - the "Panzer Graf" (Kindle Locations 5068-5073). Casemate Publications. Kindle Edition. 

[senseispcc]

where did you get this numbers they seems very very strange? I look into it but do not believe them!

[siipperi]

Why Kursk? I think this is enough:

[senseispcc]

In E.R. Hoorton The fall of the Luftwaffe  Luftflotte 6 between 5 July 1943 and 15 July (10 days) they lost 97 aircraft due to combat and lufflotte4 same period same date lost 99 airplanes all types from a global total of at the beginning of the battle off 4,462 planes. For Soviet losses I am still looking but I never believe the German claims!

You should also note that after the 4th of July the serviceable  aircrafts numbers drop by half to 2,780 due to lack of fuel and damages  of all causes. And continues to drop the following days.

[Sakkay]

I am afraid of it, the  engine will run the many tanks difficultly. This battle was about this in any case. if 30 will be an airplane and 40 tank...az will look rather wrethcedly.

[DB605]

 For Soviet losses I am still looking but I never believe the German claims!

 

Then whos claims you do believe? German claims are just as accurate or inaccurate as anyone else's and it's very well known fact that russians lost shetloads of more planes than germans.

[Volkoff]

There was a rumor on the forum that the team was considering Kuban as the next map. I am not in a position to know if Kuban is the next map. I am not in a position to know what map the team will or will not actually develop in the future. Kuban may not actually be the next map.  MJ

Edited May 1, 2014 by =69.GIAP=MIKHA

[Feathered_IV]

QED

[IVJG4-Knight]

Kuban or Crimea makes more sense imho.There were big air battles over these regions.

[TX-Gunslinger]

Kuban would be an opportunity to see P-39 in VVS 298th IAP (later 104th Guards IAP).   Kuban has a lot terrain and the western coast contains Novorossiysk/Anapa/Gelendzhik which was one of the more popular maps in the original Il-2

 

Please not Kursk.

 

I fear it might be Kursk as if you are in the business of selling aircraft - it's an opportunity to provide many new advanced units.   La5-FN/FW-190A5/109 G6/Yak 9/Hs 129b, in other words more sellable aircraft.

As others have said, a Kursk without large numbers of ground units is going to look somewhat like the Rise of Flight "no mans land".   Rich in air content, lacking in ground context.

 

If the business strategy is to move to another area of the Russian front - I'd hope it's earlier (I-16/I-153) or much later (Ukraine early 1944) scenario.

[JG4_Sputnik]

I hope for Kuban or Crimea too, for Kursk we would need a different graphics engine to display the large battles I think. Stalingrad looks empty enough already

Hunting some ships at the Kuban with the Ju87G would be nice.

But i've got a notion that 777 is looking more towards Air-to-Air Battles than battlefields with ground units.

[TX-Gunslinger]

Why Kursk? I think this is enough:

 

Deathtrap.  Easy bag for VVS flights after your first shots.  Even a heavily laden Sturmovik will outfly it.  Only if you can find Russian armor attacks without air support, as your German fighters will likely not be flying at a lower altitude than VVS flights.....   It's kinda rough to be the slowest aircraft and limited horizontal maneuverability.    I'd rather go with large bomb - at least I can use it while diving and I don't have to make repeat low level attacks.

 

Edit:  Missed Spunik's post.  Yeah, some utility in attacking isolated small shipping and naval vessels with minimal AA.  Didn't think of that.

Edited May 1, 2014 by TX-Gunslinger

[IVJG4-Knight]

Kuban would be an opportunity to see P-39 in VVS 298th IAP (later 104th Guards IAP).   Kuban has a lot terrain and the western coast contains Novorossiysk/Anapa/Gelendzhik which was one of the more popular maps in the original Il-2

 

Please not Kursk.

 

I fear it might be Kursk as if you are in the business of selling aircraft - it's an opportunity to provide many new advanced units.   La5-FN/FW-190A5/109 G6/Yak 9/Hs 129b, in other words more sellable aircraft.

As others have said, a Kursk without large numbers of ground units is going to look somewhat like the Rise of Flight "no mans land".   Rich in air content, lacking in ground context.

 

If the business strategy is to move to another area of the Russian front - I'd hope it's earlier (I-16/I-153) or much later (Ukraine early 1944) scenario.

 

But there was a battle in may 1944 over crimea. And i think that by that time these planes you mentioned(La5-FN/FW-190A5/109 G6/Yak 9/Hs 129b) were available  .

[senseispcc]

First, the air victory claims of any country pilots or airmen's or air defence are always at least  two times the reality.

Kuban could be the next game in the series if there is one but in this region the terrain is more difficult to simulate, mountains and sea. So also the problem of creating air to sea battles. 

Kursk is a big battle but more so a air battle with all type of air missions possible with no air to naval missions this is true.

I only hope and try to launch the idea!

[TJT]

Kuban have one market thing going for it; Lend Lease aircrafts gallore. A good way to group up some new aircraft, ie P-39, P-40 etc, with a map they "belong" on. Should tickle the ego's of certain western oriented groups.

Plus its a legendary battle for the Russians.

Edited May 1, 2014 by TJT

[Brano]

Kuban for me.Interesting landscape with rivers,mountains,see shores.Names like Novorossijsk,Anapa,Gelendzik,Tuapse sounds very familiar to my ear.Nice change after snowy and rather dull flat stepp area around Stalingrad.And that is the area and time period where new VVS were born,implementing modern tactics,flying in pairs,vertical formations with famous ''Kubanska etazherka'' (I do not know how to translate it into English but russian guys know)

Kursk is fine for later scenarios but it will be again very dull area to fly above.Not very densly populated even today with areas around triangel of peak battles in southern sector Yakovlevo-Prochorovka-Oboyan and north sector around Ponyri.Just check yourself with googlemaps.

[KodiakJac]

Kuban have one market thing going for it; Lend Lease aircrafts gallore. A good way to group up some new aircraft, ie P-39, P-40 etc, with a map they "belong" on. Should tickle the ego's of certain western oriented groups.

Plus its a legendary battle for the Russians.

+1

[Jaws2002]

Kuban is the best next candidate. Lots of planes already done, interesting lend lease planes, interesting landscape.

Very important for the Russians, as in the air, Kuban was the point where the Russian Airforce went on offensive. In the air everything was different after Kuban.

[Volkoff]

But there was a battle in may 1944 over crimea. And i think that by that time these planes you mentioned(La5-FN/FW-190A5/109 G6/Yak 9/Hs 129b) were available  .

 

One interesting feature of a Crimea map would be that you could have two sets of planes, from two distinct time periods, for that map, a 1941 plane set and a 1944 plane set. That may be highly desirable, since you can use one map as a backdrop for a number of aircraft not currently in the sim, everything from the Mig-3 to the Yak 9, etc. MJ  

Edited May 1, 2014 by =69.GIAP=MIKHA

[Sakkay]

Kuban...+1

[Chuck_Owl]

 

Just kidding. I love these threads

Edited May 1, 2014 by 71st_AH_Chuck

[Finkeren]

Then whos claims you do believe? German claims are just as accurate or inaccurate as anyone else's and it's very well known fact that russians lost shetloads of more planes than germans.

Generally we shouldn't believe claims of victories for any side. We should believe the loss figures as recorded by the commanders of the air forces.

 

And yes, it's pretty much established, that the LW pilots overclaimed at about the same rate as all other air forces, so their scores were still impressive as hell, even if they are somewhat off.

 

Oh... And a Kursk map would be great because of the significance and scope of the battle, but a Kuban/Kerch map would be more interesting as a map in itself.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Finkeren

[Felix58]

where did you get this numbers they seems very very strange? I look into it but do not believe them!

 

I believe those figures were quoted from:

Colonel T. N. Dupuy, A Genius for War The German Army and General Staff 1807– 1945 (McDonald & Jones, London, 1977).

 

which were used in the following book (Note that this book was a product of research rather than an autobiography).

Bagdonas, Raymond (2014-01-19). The Devil's General: The Life of Hyazinth Graf Strachwitz - the "Panzer Graf" (Kindle Locations 5127-5128). Casemate Publications. Kindle Edition. 

 

siipperi - great image of the JU87

[brook]

Why a Kursk map?

 

1. It is the next big battle after the battle of Stalingrad. There were numerous other battles but not as important or with a fixed front.
2. There could be many scenarios; winter Soviet advance, German counter offensive and creation of the Kursk salient, the stale mate and preparation of the future battle, the battle itself, then the Soviet offensive with the German withdrawal.
3. The planes of Kursk air battle are the same than those of the battle of Stalingrad with some new models or new armament but less so than many of us think or hope for. New models yes, new planes no!
4. I am not a expert but it seems manly flat or nice rolling flat hills terrain and devoid of big cities with the exception of Kharkov (this depends how you define the map).  The map could also be cut in two parts south and north if you desire tactical maps from north to south that where the German offensive axes during the battle.
5. Now a not so good news, the air battles during the Kursk battles in July 1943 where huge, not some little four to four encounters but big battle with some times more than four hundred  or more planes in one air battles. Also preventive air strike against airfields from either side was a common practice. The two sides had radar for the first time, US military sources.

So I hope one day, one year or in the future to see a Battle of Kursk air battle game!

 

+ BIG Plus  here on that !!!!

[ShamrockOneFive]

I like both Kursk and Kuban ideas. Both have merit and great opportunities for some exciting air combat above and beyond what we'll have over Stalingrad (although I'm glad we're starting there).... so either way I think it'd be a win win type situation.

[II./JG27_Rich]

Right now any map is fine with me as long as it's a bigger than the one in multiplayer

Edited May 2, 2014 by II./JG27_Rich

[bivalov]

really, why?

 

only after - velikie luki + summer BOS > kuban w L-L - personally for me... but... if about birds and future, and not about leningrad...

 

Also preventive air strike against airfields from either side was a common practice.

exactly...

 

in fact, were very specific soviet operations, when VVS attacked german airfields and tried destroy planes/infrastructure - if i not mistaken, for example, it's 1941, spring-summer'42, autumn'42 during BOS and may-june'43 before "citadel", all it's like "bodenplatte" - and about soviet operations'43, for example, i read very good book by Rastrenin...

 

this is mass, hard battles over airfields and around, here still la-5/la-5f razorback=type 37, maybe, some number of la-5f type 39 = bubble top, yaks, of course il-2s etc (just know not so much about planes and battle, i remember only a-20 and pe-2)... for germany, is still main types like bf 109 g and fw 190 etc, with several new planes...

 

i mean, this is could be first step to Kursk, where need some new planes, lot of ground units etc (just my fast thoughts, maybe, wrong) - all times, pls, remember about time for modeling and system requirements - but, of course, it's mainly almost one type of air combats... attacks on german supply, before citadel, could be more adequate variant, but i know not so much about this, like and about may-june'43...

Edited May 2, 2014 by bivalov

[Nonolem]

And what about Leningrad?

Leningrad : A very nice and huge map, a very, very long campaign (from September 8th 1941 to 27th january 1944), a lot of very different airplanes...

A very ambitious project, which in my opinion will not be the next step for this sim, but it would be perfect...

[Bearcat]

Kuban have one market thing going for it; Lend Lease aircrafts gallore. A good way to group up some new aircraft, ie P-39, P-40 etc, with a map they "belong" on. Should tickle the ego's of certain western oriented groups.

Plus its a legendary battle for the Russians.

 

I can't speak for all the western oriented groups.. but for me it is less about adding western planes for ego massaging and more about adding different planes.. If I had a choice between a P-39, a P-40, or a Hurricaine .. and another Yak/Lagg/La variant ... I will take the former over the latter any day of the week. Once they are in the mix so to speak I could wait a bit and enjoy with a few more variants of what is already in the sim before I see it move to the aircraft I am even at this early juncture looking with extreme anticipation to seeing ... like Yak 9s, Mustangs, Spitfires and P-47s .. not to mention the Doras and Kurfursts.

 

Kuban for me.Interesting landscape with rivers,mountains,see shores.Names like Novorossijsk,Anapa,Gelendzik,Tuapse sounds very familiar to my ear.Nice change after snowy and rather dull flat stepp area around Stalingrad.And that is the area and time period where new VVS were born,implementing modern tactics,flying in pairs,vertical formations with famous ''Kubanska etazherka'' (I do not know how to translate it into English but russian guys know)

Kursk is fine for later scenarios but it will be again very dull area to fly above.Not very densly populated even today with areas around triangel of peak battles in southern sector Yakovlevo-Prochorovka-Oboyan and north sector around Ponyri.Just check yourself with googlemaps.

 

Yeah that is my take as well.. The Kuban offers a variation o landscape that is pretty broad compared to what we have now.. and I think that everyone buying this sim understands that:

 

A)This will be small moves... we wont see 6 maps a year from now.. at least I don't think so ... I would love to be wrong but I don't think  am. Therefore IMO it is better to incorporate maps that offer a broader landscape/planeset in addition to accurate history as opposed to just going in a purely historic direction as far as maps go and those sweet spots where history and variety meet are there to be had.... as long as the sim gets what it needs out of the gate and these guys have been doing a great job of earning our trust and support... at least IMO.

 

Kuban is the best next candidate. Lots of planes already done, interesting lend lease planes, interesting landscape.

Very important for the Russians, as in the air, Kuban was the point where the Russian Airforce went on offensive. In the air everything was different after Kuban.

 

Exactly...

[bivalov]

And what about Leningrad?

 

Leningrad : A very nice and huge map, a very, very long campaign (from September 8th 1941 to 27th january 1944), a lot of very different airplanes...

 

A very ambitious project, which in my opinion will not be the next step for this sim, but it would be perfect...

argree, this is what i mean...

 

plus murmansk (or just north of russia), it's very interesting variant, especially, for us/us people - here lot types of p-40, hurri, p-39 etc, but scenario not really ideal by several reasons, although, personally i long time think about and it's could be my choice... like and leningrad'41-45, it's could be just ideal variant (lot of some L-L planes, rumors about L-L p-47s here, real using of spits-9 in PVO etc), i think, at this moment, but looks like here TOO much details...

 

...in fact, abolutely no matter, almost, which things at this moment you or i prefer (for me is leningrad/murmansk/etc'42-43), but i as russian and player, again will write here several thoughts about... which, sometimes, based on theoretical thinking of 1CGS-member...

 

well, looks like need to keep in mind period of war (1941/1942-1943/1944); place (east front/africa/pacific etc); famous battles of war, where were used concrete types of planes and concrete types of ground units (for EF'42-43 it's kharkov-stalingrad/kuban/kursk etc)...

 

and looks like, in near future, game is still east front'42-43, somewhere around BOS...

 

next, following should be considered - 1 need to find and process correct information about planes, map, ground units, combats etc (it's lot of time + work), including from archives...

2 several new technologies, for much more complex aircrafts etc and their high level of simulation (it's lot of time + work), la-5f type 37 it's NOT la-5f type 39, although is very similar planes, etc...

3 plus ABSOLUTELY need to understand, for example, if you like beautiful mig-3 it's NOT means what this is "dream fighter", especially, if it's will be old planes in 42...

4 as logical continuation, absolutely need understand - if you really want historically correct air war or correct confrontation, at least, keep in mind what during 1941-1942 (sometimes 1943) in VVS RKKA were lot of serious problems with quality, equipment etc - in other case, it's will be game which "based on true story" or even "what if" scenario... although, i can a bit сгущать краски and it's just thoughts...

5 L-L planes, finnish planes (mainly us/uk too) etc for EF, is worldwide popularity > money > successful development of game... all very simple... and, of course, it's just very good addition, for which need and some efforts...

 

so, looks like, because even during BOS still had difficulties, and if keep in mind actual list of planes etc + gradual development of these complex things, as best continuation will be scenario with similar and adequate soviet aircrafts/L-L planes, around BOS and 42-43 years...

 

and as next official add-on (besides new planes for winter) and FINAL WORD about BOS, could be summer-autumn'42 or something like this, with important early planes (yaks-7/yaks-1 between s69 and correct yak-1b/early laggs/hurri/p-40 etc) - remember here about another temperatures too... - maybe, with parallel support of "Velikie Luki" project, with mainly better planes (bf 109 f-2 late, yak-1b, yak-9 (i found even picture with yak-9 with 2 rockets, btw... ), la-5 type 37 after s9 etc)...

 

next, as important battle with another types of planes, really could be something like sunny Kuban, with many L-L (including tanks, trucks etc), soviet and german planes... btw, spits-5 in BOK, spits-9 in africa (it's exactly end of spring'43), spits-9 in PVO of leningrad'44, is very promising mix, i think...

although, for grabbing money and for better development, first of all, maybe better to do exactly Kuban'43... but and next 2 or more analogs of la-5/fw 190, that now, it's could be early types of p-39 (it's battles around Voronezh, during mid-late'42 or something like this) etc...

 

and only now, personally i think, some future plans like kursk, africa or even 41-42 scenarios etc... barbarossa could be very interesting variant and starting point for battles'41-44, with many interesting early planes, at first time, just need to keep in mind specific of battles'41...

 

...and it's only my simple thoughts, plus we alltime forgot and not write about several battles, like caucasus, kharkov'43 etc...

[Cybermat47]

I'm hoping for a summer Stalingrad map myself

[senseispcc]

 

I believe those figures were quoted from:

Colonel T. N. Dupuy, A Genius for War The German Army and General Staff 1807– 1945 (McDonald & Jones, London, 1977).

 

which were used in the following book (Note that this book was a product of research rather than an autobiography).

Bagdonas, Raymond (2014-01-19). The Devil's General: The Life of Hyazinth Graf Strachwitz - the "Panzer Graf" (Kindle Locations 5127-5128). Casemate Publications. Kindle Edition. 

 

siipperi - great image of the JU87

 

I read this book and it is not a, if I remember correctly, a specific book about the air battles off WW2 is it not so the numbers are maybe not has profound than the "eagle in flames" how is a book with only this prospect?!

 

 

Now Kuban or Kursk front I also have a big problem when I have to choose between the two, I vote for the two but because it is more easy to produce with the exception of it size I vote for Kursk .

Edited May 2, 2014 by senseispcc

[Wind]

Oh, how stoked would I be on a baltia-finnish gulf-ladoga-leningrad map in the june 1941-november 1941...

Most of the planes would be ready, and the missing planes are interesting like I-16,SB,Fokker 75,Brewester,Blenheim...

 

It would be a summer map with large bodies of water, a lot of ground targets, shipping...oh man. Always loved the Il-2 gulf

capaign.Ooh...one can dream...one can dream...

 

 

Other favourite would be the mediteranian/africa campaign, same upsides as there would be ground targets, shipping, and that beautifull

mediterranian sea. I know that I am probably in a minority but I personally cant stand the steppes maps, like belarus/stalingrad etc..

Just so bloody flat, featureless and eye gougingly boring. Not to mention what a bliss the navigation is in the featureless terrain...

Bleh...

 

Even the Krimea would be a jackpot in my eyes as it has some sea to freshen things up.

 

 

Well, the devs will make the call based on the popularity&profitability as it will secure the future developement of the series.

Which I am more than comfortable with as that is obviously the prerogative, to keep the sim scene alive.

I know that I will get the BoS and its followers anyway, regardless what front we will be flying in!

[=LD=Hethwill]

Rather preferring northern sector myself.

 

Inclusion of baltic of course and naval attached air groups, instead of more ukrainian plains with tanks.

 

Ju-88's going for PQ convoys...

[III/JG53Frankyboy]

Kuban

-> http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/4160-which-eastern-front-battle-next/

 

at least at the next one

 

and please, 777, give the He111 and A-20 torpedoes :D

[Jaws2002]

One interesting feature of a Crimea map would be that you could have two sets of planes, from two distinct time periods, for that map, a 1941 plane set and a 1944 plane set. That may be highly desirable, since you can use one map as a backdrop for a number of aircraft not currently in the sim, everything from the Mig-3 to the Yak 9, etc. MJ

 

 

After Kuban +1 for Crimea. The map can be used for both, 1941 and 1944 scenarios with many interesting planes on both sides.

[Georgio]

Kursk is a must assuming we can have at least close to realistic numbers of tanks/planes. Stalingrad was the halt, Kursk was the confirmation that it was beginning of the end for the Axis powers; aside from some brilliant leadership from Manstein when he ignored Hitler, it was all downhill from here on in.

I just hope that we get the option to be able to dial up the amount of units ingame for those that rigs can handle the overhead. Just having RoF levels of friendly/enemy planes just doesn't cut it in 2014...^^