Current expansions structure and segmentation.

[VonBarb]

Is the game, or rather collection of games, as it is now, reaching a critical stage where the way it is currently organised and segmented will preclude further development ?

With more aircraft being released with each new expansion, we now have a planeset that could be used to cover a very large spectrum of battles and scenarios in the future, but the segmentation and marketing strategy that 777 have chosen will make it problematic down the line.

 

As it is, each aircraft type is either a part of one of the expansions (or a Premium) and is hard-coded to a specific country. For instance the Spit Mk.Vb is a Russian plane and belongs to BoK. 

Normandy will soon add a Channel map, which will be a very welcome addition for those of us who have been waiting for a fleshed out Western Front, and will work for scenarios startig as early as 1941 with the current planeset. But then the Spits Mk.Vbs will still be speaking Russian. Nothing wrong with that, just not when we'll be wanting to fly good old Fighter Command Rhubarbs and Rodeos over the Somme.

 

The same is true of the P-40E, a plane that was used by pretty much everyone everywhere, and could be found in many other battles under different colours.

And that is for people who own BoK. Players and Campaign makers looking to pitch the old nemesis that are the Spit Vb and the 109 F2 against each other in Summer of 41 type engagements will need to own BoN, BoK and BoM. 

Similarly,  most of the BoBP planeset will be partially usable in the Normandy Landings context.

 

Owners of both expansions will get the best experience, and I understand how that works out well for 777, and that is fine, but what about beyond ?

 

What if 777 decided to move back to the Eastern Front ? With most planes already covered by the expansions already released, what new planes would a Leningrad, Barbarossa or Finland expansion release with ? There's always room for additional Russian sub-types or production series (how many LaGG-3 production runs again ?) but we have the Germans pretty much completely covered by now.

 

Same issue in the purely conjectural event of a North African expansion, adding the fact that Spifires and Kittyhawks of the RAF and RAAF will use Russian radio calls.

Right now the best way to avoid these issues would be to move on to completely new theatres with planesets that share very little with the types we have, such as the Pacific, but that would be missing the opportunity to re-create scenarios complementary to what we already have by adding comparatively minor modifications to already available plane types. In the case of a Battle Of Tobrouk for instance, all it would take is a new map, Tropical sand filter modifications for a few planes, and we'd have the Fighters line-up covered.

 

Purely conjectural I know, but I think these issues need to be mentionnd as we keep looking forward to more content in the Great Battles series.

 

I understand how that may be a daunting task, but here is how I believe this could be adressed :

 

- Make all aircraft "neutral" by default, and let the scenario decide their faction, with appropriate default skins. The skins are already available in the game for a lot of the Allied planes.

- Make all aircraft (and possibly, maps and corresponding assets) available as stand-alone, so each player can customise their selection of flyable planes to their needs. Keep the Expansions as they are with their specific planesets, but allow people to purchase one or two additional planes from an expansion they do not own, in order to complement the lineup that came with the full expansions they do own. This will also make it possible to release "light" or partial expansions later on, such as a map and dynami campaign, with a selection of compatible planetypes to be purchased separately.

 

This is a stern break from what has been done until then, but I really think this could open many exciting opportunities down the line.

 

Thought ?

[[DBS]Browning]

7 minutes ago, VonBarb said:

Make all aircraft "neutral" by default, and let the scenario decide their faction

 

I gather this is already on the way!

[AWC]

10 minutes ago, [DBS]Browning said:

 

I gather this is already on the way!

 

This ^ Yes please chack the dev diary 248 theyve said its being worked on. As for the German plane sets, well just have to wait and see.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Lemsip

[VonBarb]

That is very good to hear ! Sorry I'm not as up to date with the Dev Diaries as I'd like to. 

[Lusekofte]

2 minutes ago, VonBarb said:

That is very good to hear ! Sorry I'm not as up to date with the Dev Diaries as I'd like to. 

The DD has grown to the size of the bible. And pretty much of it is outdated. 
Improvements has rendered most of it outdated anyway. 
I think all things pointed at actually get noted and attempts of improvements regularly get done, maybe it take a year, but it is at least attempts to improvements   
until a permanent solution is available

[CountZero]

45 minutes ago, VonBarb said:

Is the game, or rather collection of games, as it is now, reaching a critical stage where the way it is currently organised and segmented will preclude further development ?

With more aircraft being released with each new expansion, we now have a planeset that could be used to cover a very large spectrum of battles and scenarios in the future, but the segmentation and marketing strategy that 777 have chosen will make it problematic down the line.

 

As it is, each aircraft type is either a part of one of the expansions (or a Premium) and is hard-coded to a specific country. For instance the Spit Mk.Vb is a Russian plane and belongs to BoK. 

Normandy will soon add a Channel map, which will be a very welcome addition for those of us who have been waiting for a fleshed out Western Front, and will work for scenarios startig as early as 1941 with the current planeset. But then the Spits Mk.Vbs will still be speaking Russian. Nothing wrong with that, just not when we'll be wanting to fly good old Fighter Command Rhubarbs and Rodeos over the Somme.

 

The same is true of the P-40E, a plane that was used by pretty much everyone everywhere, and could be found in many other battles under different colours.

And that is for people who own BoK. Players and Campaign makers looking to pitch the old nemesis that are the Spit Vb and the 109 F2 against each other in Summer of 41 type engagements will need to own BoN, BoK and BoM. 

Similarly,  most of the BoBP planeset will be partially usable in the Normandy Landings context.

 

Owners of both expansions will get the best experience, and I understand how that works out well for 777, and that is fine, but what about beyond ?

 

What if 777 decided to move back to the Eastern Front ? With most planes already covered by the expansions already released, what new planes would a Leningrad, Barbarossa or Finland expansion release with ? There's always room for additional Russian sub-types or production series (how many LaGG-3 production runs again ?) but we have the Germans pretty much completely covered by now.

 

Same issue in the purely conjectural event of a North African expansion, adding the fact that Spifires and Kittyhawks of the RAF and RAAF will use Russian radio calls.

Right now the best way to avoid these issues would be to move on to completely new theatres with planesets that share very little with the types we have, such as the Pacific, but that would be missing the opportunity to re-create scenarios complementary to what we already have by adding comparatively minor modifications to already available plane types. In the case of a Battle Of Tobrouk for instance, all it would take is a new map, Tropical sand filter modifications for a few planes, and we'd have the Fighters line-up covered.

 

Purely conjectural I know, but I think these issues need to be mentionnd as we keep looking forward to more content in the Great Battles series.

 

I understand how that may be a daunting task, but here is how I believe this could be adressed :

 

- Make all aircraft "neutral" by default, and let the scenario decide their faction, with appropriate default skins. The skins are already available in the game for a lot of the Allied planes.

- Make all aircraft (and possibly, maps and corresponding assets) available as stand-alone, so each player can customise their selection of flyable planes to their needs. Keep the Expansions as they are with their specific planesets, but allow people to purchase one or two additional planes from an expansion they do not own, in order to complement the lineup that came with the full expansions they do own. This will also make it possible to release "light" or partial expansions later on, such as a map and dynami campaign, with a selection of compatible planetypes to be purchased separately.

 

This is a stern break from what has been done until then, but I really think this could open many exciting opportunities down the line.

 

Thought ?

 

You can just buy for 5$ P-40 or Spit V, they are collectable airplanes.

Also with almost constant 75% sales anyone can get earlyer DLCs for cheap price.

East front is missing late war vvs airplanes, and they can easy do one more DLC in 44-45 front on east and have axis airplanes for it.

If there is need for some early vvs airplanes they can do collector airplanes.

Why would i pay 5$ at best when its 75% off full price, for airplane that is part of 8 standard airplanes of that DLC when i can get all 8 of them for 12$ when that DLC is also on 75% off full price.

North Africa is done by Il-2 CloD, and it is covering Tobruk area, and probably more desert battles if they sell well, it will be sold by this same team so why make 2 same games at same time.

Mod team from Finland is making Leningrad area map, and probably there will be some SP campaigns there for airplanes we already have in game. I guess if they do good job they could do more maps of areas where we have most airplanes so DLC is not an option, and there could be collector airplanes made by devs to fill in gaps, to me that seams like more realistic option to get some new maps and older vvs airplanes that most would not buy. 

Edited May 10, 2020 by CountZero

[BlitzPig_EL]

When making a mission in the builder, you can set aircraft and airfields to any of the countries portrayed in the sim, hence my P40s and P39s on the Stalingrad summer map all speak English, either American or British, as I have set them this way as I am using that very dry, arid landscape as a stand in for North Africa.

Edited May 10, 2020 by BlitzPig_EL

[VonBarb]

37 minutes ago, CountZero said:

 

You can just buy for 5$ P-40 or Spit V, they are collectable airplanes.

Also with almost constant 75% sales anyone can get earlyer DLCs for cheap price.

East front is missing late war vvs airplanes, and they can easy do one more DLC in 44-45 front on east and have axis airplanes for it.

If there is need for some early vvs airplanes they can do collector airplanes.

Why would i pay 5$ at best when its 75% off full price, for airplane that is part of 8 standard airplanes of that DLC when i can get all 8 of them for 12$ when that DLC is also on 75% off full price.

North Africa is done by Il-2 CloD, and it is covering Tobruk area, and probably more desert battles if they sell well, it will be sold by this same team so why make 2 same games at same time.

Mod team from Finland is making Leningrad area map, and probably there will be some SP campaigns there for airplanes we already have in game. I guess if they do good job they could do more maps of areas where we have most airplanes so DLC is not an option, and there could be collector airplanes made by devs to fill in gaps, to me that seams like more realistic option to get some new maps and older vvs airplanes that most would not buy. 

 

That's just the thing, make more Premium planes, and by the same logic, make the ones we have as part of Expansions be available as standalone. 5$ (and thats a VERY low estimate) for a plane I really want to fly is still better than 75% off a full expansion with planes I'm not going to fly. Not to mention the price of expansions currently include Tank Crew which I personally could not care less about. 

 

Regarding CloD, wasn't that game dead before it even got released ? I'm sorry but no amount of modding will save this one IMO. I've tried going back to it, it just doesn't cut it. Also why spread resources across two games when you can work on one and share the assets ? 

[CountZero]

3 minutes ago, VonBarb said:

 

That's just the thing, make more Premium planes, and by the same logic, make the ones we have as part of Expansions be available as standalone. 5$ (and thats a VERY low estimate) for a plane I really want to fly is still better than 75% off a full expansion with planes I'm not going to fly. Not to mention the price of expansions currently include Tank Crew which I personally could not care less about. 

 

Regarding CloD, wasn't that game dead before it even got released ? I'm sorry but no amount of modding will save this one IMO. I've tried going back to it, it just doesn't cut it. Also why spread resources across two games when you can work on one and share the assets ? 

Price of stand alone (collector ) airplane is 20$ ( 5$ is now when its sale). So who would spend 20$ just on one airplane that is part of 8 Standard DLC, when he can get whole 8 airplanes for 12$ on sale, makes no sence to me to not get 8 airplane insted just one.

Tank Crew has only tanks, so why would anyone interested in airplanes even buy it, to me if its not 12$ no reason for even geting it when i can just play in MP over its map and use 2 free tanks if i wont to check tank vs tank (but for that i have WarThunder)

 

For Clod this dev team suports mod group of it so only way you gona get any desert ww2 action is in clod desert war expantions as even if this game wonts to go to africa you already have all important airplanes here in IL-2 GB so they cant do 5v5 DLC. So if you wont more desert ww2 action you better hope Tobruk sell well so they can make more, as i doubt you ever gona see it here even if Clod fail.

[Toots_LeGuerre]

 

' Regarding CloD, wasn't that game dead before it even got released ? I'm sorry but no amount of modding will save this one IMO.'

 

This I don't know about, but to be locked out forever from what is to me, the most visceral campaigns of WWII: North Africa, Malta,

and the Invasion of Italy, is like watching your best friend drive away in your car, with your girl, your liquor, and your hopes for the evening. 

 

I want the IL2 BoS folks to make us a good map with an appropriate set of A/C (most of which we  have already) for the Mediterranean Campaign.

[CountZero]

7 minutes ago, vonNutz said:

 

' Regarding CloD, wasn't that game dead before it even got released ? I'm sorry but no amount of modding will save this one IMO.'

 

This I don't know about, but to be locked out forever from what is to me, the most visceral campaigns of WWII: North Africa, Malta,

and the Invasion of Italy, is like watching your best friend drive away in your car, with your girl, your liquor, and your hopes for the evening. 

 

I want the IL2 BoS folks to make us a good map with an appropriate set of A/C (most of which we  have already) for the Mediterranean Campaign.

 

Like Finland mod group is making Leningrad area map, some other can make desert map for this game, but it seams there is not big interest for it with people who know how to make mod maps.

I can only see after invasion of Italy as something that can be posible in this game as you can have 5x5 new airplanes there, anything earlyer and your basicly seling same airplane just with desert filter, and that would not sell good for full price i guess.

Edited May 10, 2020 by CountZero

[Chief_Mouser]

With both the Luftwaffe and VVS missing just a few important planes, making another unique 5x5 BoX for the Eastern Front is going to be difficult. I think that Jason appreciates this and was hoping to go to the Pacific to continue the series. If that is still not possible (i.e. not enough info for the Japanese a/c), and we know that four-engined aircraft and strategic bombing is ruled out, then options are very limited.

The only other major air forces not touched (if you forget the MC.202 collector plane) are the Italian RA and the French Armée de l'Air. As discussed in another thread, making a Luftwaffe side to the Battle of France is tricky - just more of the same - and CloD has BoB (and the Desert War) to itself for the moment. 

The only real options that I can see are the Battle of Malta (the map for which can continue on to the Allied invasion of Sicily) which can provide a good set of RA v RAF planes, or the Battle of Epirus. RA v RAF and the Greek HA which provides a good set of Italian aircraft plus the Ju87B-2/R-2, early RAF aircraft plus a few aircraft from other parts: PZL P.24, Bloch MB 151 etc. All this assumes that the Italian planes aren't the exclusive property of CloD and that the data for the other aircraft is available.

There is one more option: Korea. Early Korean War has a good plane set for the NATO forces, not quite sure about the North Korean side. Mig-15, Il-10, Tu-2, the Yak-9 which is on its way,  and errrm…? I don't know enough about it.

What I really don't want to see is another European map and planeset that is nothing more than different versions of the 109, 190, Mustang or Spitfire. 1c have said that they don't want to go down the selling individual planes and standalone maps route as opposed to 5x5 scenario sets, but I'd be happy to buy individual components for the rest of the European war. Such as the Murmansk map; I really do hope that it turns up.

I left out the Finnish Air Force in my summing up. This was not an insult; I really want the Leningrad map too and the planes that go with it. Difficult to get a 5x5 though, but I'd be happy to go for a 5x0 with it.

Fingers crossed for something that isn't Il-2 46! No fantasy rubbish please.

[CountZero]

Before BoN was anounced Han said on russian forum that his wish was Poland late war, so my guess is they have 10 airplanes for that DLC in plan for future, and now choice was to do Normandy. And if you look what airplanes you get there Yak-3, La-7, P-39Q, Pe-2 1944, Il-2 1944 vs 109g10, 190a9, He-111H20, Ju-87D5, Ta-152H its only resonable option to do next in this time of uncertanty its best to go for sure thing then for something risky like Korea or even PTO for what they keep repeting they dont have airplanes data that fill their standards.

[ShamrockOneFive]

5 minutes ago, CountZero said:

Before BoN was anounced Han said on russian forum that his wish was Poland late war, so my guess is they have 10 airplanes for that DLC in plan for future, and now choice was to do Normandy. And if you look what airplanes you get there Yak-3, La-7, P-39Q, Pe-2 1944, Il-2 1944 vs 109g10, 190a9, He-111H20, Ju-87D5, Ta-152H its only resonable option to do next in this time of uncertanty its best to go for sure thing then for something risky like Korea or even PTO for what they keep repeting they dont have airplanes data that fill their standards.

I'd be fine with a set like that.

 

There are still enough variants of aircraft that we can have a mix of unique and familiar in a whole variety of sets so I would hope that there's still plenty of life left. They could round things out with a few more collector planes to fill in some gaps "at the end" if they wanted to.

[Lusekofte]

I really wish for anything else of bombers than we have now. HE 111 H 20 nor PE 2 will bring nothing new on the table. 
I really wish for a JU 188 instead of new HE 111. Maybe a TU 2 instead of PE 2 

[CountZero]

2 minutes ago, 216th_LuseKofte said:

I really wish for anything else of bombers than we have now. HE 111 H 20 nor PE 2 will bring nothing new on the table. 
I really wish for a JU 188 instead of new HE 111. Maybe a TU 2 instead of PE 2 

I would also liked Tu-2S or Do-217K or M for example, or Ju-188 like you say, but i think they would go for something simpler when bombers are in question for next DLC if posible. Well see how mutch work BoN new twins will be as they are mostly new designs and big projects.

[Missionbug]

I think Jason has already said somewhere here that the current way a DLC uses aircraft can and probably will need to change to allow for the fact that most of the German types are now available, so it could be that there will not be that usual 50/50 mix but different variations to suit evolving theaters.

 

As has been indicated there is a Finnish map in work by a third party team, for that the aircraft that could be included would come from various nations, UK, France, USA and Holland to name a few because Finland was considered to be part of the Axis powers during WWII.

 

We must also recognize that the mix does not necessarily have to be all fighter types, the Axis side used a wide variety of aircraft as did the Soviets, this would allow what are usually termed lesser types to come into the sim as all the main fighter types are used up, there is also Italian aviation to consider in the scheme of things, one is already included in the sim but there are others that could be deployed, one fighter for Finland at least.

 

If the East front was expanded to actually include the other Axis nations that fought on the Eastern front then even without actually getting a new map we have whatever types were used by Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary and the smaller contingents from some of the occupied territories so I do not think running out of a mix for the DLC is coming any time soon, if ever.

 

Take care and be safe.

 

Wishing you all the very best, Pete.

 

[Fritz_X]

1 hour ago, CountZero said:

Before BoN was anounced Han said on russian forum that his wish was Poland late war, so my guess is they have 10 airplanes for that DLC in plan for future, and now choice was to do Normandy. And if you look what airplanes you get there Yak-3, La-7, P-39Q, Pe-2 1944, Il-2 1944 vs 109g10, 190a9, He-111H20, Ju-87D5, Ta-152H its only resonable option to do next in this time of uncertanty its best to go for sure thing then for something risky like Korea or even PTO for what they keep repeting they dont have airplanes data that fill their standards.

 

When it comes to 'big' Great Battles modules, this scenario would be my favorite, along with Italy 1943.

 

Apart from that, I just hope for the release of quite some collector's planes to fill in those gaps that prevent us from simulating scenarios we can't at the moment (and with the furure release of the Leningrad map).

 

The following planes are a personal wishlist of mine:

 

Fighters:

- Brewster Buffalo

- Hawker Hurricane (luckily we'll be getting this one soon)

- I-153

- IAR-80/81

 

Bombers:

- B-25

- IL-4

- Ju-87 B

 

Transport:

- C-47 / Li-2

 

Recon:

- Fi-156

 

I know this is quite some list and that we might not even see half of them becoming a part of this sim. But I still hope that at least a few of them are gonna make it someday.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Fritz_X

[VonBarb]

2 hours ago, CountZero said:

 

Like Finland mod group is making Leningrad area map, some other can make desert map for this game, but it seams there is not big interest for it with people who know how to make mod maps.

I can only see after invasion of Italy as something that can be posible in this game as you can have 5x5 new airplanes there, anything earlyer and your basicly seling same airplane just with desert filter, and that would not sell good for full price i guess.

 

That is exactly my point... Whereas if you change how the planes are available, you can get away with just making the map and the campaign.

 

Besides, what "5x5 new airplanes" relevant to the invasion on Italy don't we already have ? Once Normandy is out we'll have the 109G6, G6 late, 190A-8,  Spit IXe, P-47D razorback, P-51B, P-40E, B-25 and a P-39. What's left is the Spit Vc, Spit VIII, perhaps an A-36 and a P-40F (all variants of types we already have) and a couple of medium bombers...

[CountZero]

12 minutes ago, VonBarb said:

 

That is exactly my point... Whereas if you change how the planes are available, you can get away with just making the map and the campaign.

 

Besides, what "5x5 new airplanes" relevant to the invasion on Italy don't we already have ? Once Normandy is out we'll have the 109G6, G6 late, 190A-8,  Spit IXe, P-47D razorback, P-51B, P-40E, B-25 and a P-39. What's left is the Spit Vc, Spit VIII, perhaps an A-36 and a P-40F (all variants of types we already have) and a couple of medium bombers...

A-36A, P-40L, Spitfire Mk.VIII, Spitfire Mk.IXC, Seafire Mk.IIc, Martlet Mk.IV, P-38G, A-20G, B-25D (now only AI), Beaufighter Mk.VI
And on Axis side MC.205V Serie III , Re.2002 Serie II or Re.2001 Series IV or Re.2005 Series 0, Bf-109G5 or Fw-190A4, SM.79bis, CantZ.1007bis, Do-217K, Ju-88A-17
All good for period betwen 1943-44 in Italy around Salerno to Anzio landings, not as easy as new late war east front but posible.

[Enceladus828]

9 hours ago, VonBarb said:

Also why spread resources across two games when you can work on one and share the assets ? 

Maybe because the 2 games have two completely different game engines, and getting the Team Fusion Simulations people acquainted with the game engine would take a long, long time; to a point where it probably wasn’t worth it.

 

Actually, the devs haven’t spread their resources. They just gave them the source code and will publish their products and determine a price for them.

10 hours ago, VonBarb said:

no amount of modding will save this one

Wait for TF 5.0. It’ll be released soon. Not a marketing soon, or a soon to keep you going, But a legitimate Soon, as it’s now entered Beta.