General advice for spotting

[Giovanni_Giorgio]

Hi all, can anyone outline the general advice for spotting planes in MP on realistic servers? I am asking mostly for tactical advice. I tweaked my settings according to some posts on the forum and it did help a lot. However, I still struggle to spot contacts. At the same time there are good pilots out there that seemingly have no trouble spotting and have reasonable situational awareness. How do they achieve that? 

I think here is the rough percentage of how I spot planes (assuming I spot myself without extra intel, e.g. no spotting by friendlies):

 

• By tracers of their own weapons or AAA/friends shooting around: 60% 
• Accidentally someone pops up within 500 meters:  20% 
• Adversary recklessly using nav lights: 10%
• I actually see someone from, say, 5km, and then close-in while keeping them in spot: 10%

What is your experience?
 

Edited May 5, 2020 by mincer

[Stoopy]

I added this device to my TrackIR, and also adapted it to work with my VR headset:

 

[Giovanni_Giorgio]

9 minutes ago, =[TIA]=Stoopy said:

I added this device to my TrackIR, and also adapted it to work with my VR headset:

 

I have one question: does it help?

[QB.Shallot]

I think it comes down to a couple simple rules.

 

Make sure you're constantly scanning your surroundings, this means watching to co-alt and higher threats first, and then taking a peek at whats going on by the dirt.

 

Try to predict the bad guys line of approach, this will reduce the amount of sky you have to watch, and allow you to focus down a specific chunk, increasing your chance of spotting their aircraft.

 

Use the sun! Since the visibility update having the sun to your back will make enemy aircraft glow like Christmas lights. This is supremely important. Even if the sun is "against" you and over enemy lines you're better off hanging out over their side of the map instead of toughing it out and staring at that big glaring spotlight.

[=420=Syphen]

I find a lot of it is just experience - You start to understand the tactics of where people approach targets from and the altitudes they come in at. Flying with wingmen to increase your situational awareness as a group is huge - as is having good clear and concise communication with each other.  Spotting isn't easy, everyone struggles with it regardless of VR, Monitor, TiR etc.

I find that it begins to become rewarding. I started out getting better at spotting but found at that point I'd have a hard time tracking. So I'd catch a glimpse or two of an enemy aircraft and engage, only to lose them in the ground clutter. As I got more experience, you start getting a feel for where they will "pop out" of certain manuevers and get looking there ahead of time. 

If you've already followed the guides then my best advice is to stick with it and keep flying. It is a learned skill for sure.

 

[Giovanni_Giorgio]

17 minutes ago, QB.Shallot said:

Use the sun! Since the visibility update having the sun to your back will make enemy aircraft glow like Christmas lights. This is supremely important. Even if the sun is "against" you and over enemy lines you're better off hanging out over their side of the map instead of toughing it out and staring at that big glaring spotlight.

That is very interesting, I never thought of that! Thank you very much! I have been recently doing experiments: hanging around targets, airfields and other supposedly "hot" places on popular servers and recording everything. Then I watch tracks and count all planes I do not see. I am almost always astonished by the fact that even if I spotted one in game, there were multiple other contacts in the same area I completely missed.

[Stoopy]

1 hour ago, mincer said:

I have one question: does it help?

 

Well... no.

[SharpeXB]

Make a track of a sortie or combat and watch it with the icons in. Then notice who you missed and how maybe a certain target caught your eye but made you miss something else. I’ll notice all sorts of “mistakes” to correct. 

[Cow_Art]

Related question for spotting in VR:  is everyone using migoto or a similar zoom mod to be competitive in VR multiplayer? As migoto seems to be a hassle to set up and is considered a cheat by some I would much prefer to just stick with the base game. But I currently have a really hard time identifying aircraft in VR (Valve Index).

Do I just need to practice more or am I unreasonably holding myself back by not using a zoom mod?

Edited May 6, 2020 by Cow_Art

[CountZero]

19 minutes ago, Cow_Art said:

Related question for spotting in VR:  is everyone using migoto or a similar zoom mod to be competitive in VR multiplayer? As migoto seems to be a hassle to set up and is considered a cheat by some I would much prefer to just stick with the base game. But I currently have a really hard time identifying aircraft in VR (Valve Index).

Do I just need to practice more or am I unreasonably holding myself back by not using a zoom mod?

Devs set zoom limit in VR to be what it is, so someone builds mod that makes that zoom level brake that limit, and game cant control if mod is on or off by user, should you use it ?

Its same as devs set limit for P-51 to lose its landing gear dors at certen speed, someone build mod to "fix" this as he thinks its not realistic for game, and that mod cant be controled by game or servers cant ban use of it, should you use it ? its same thing devs set limits and we have mod on game for mods and mod off that is suposed to be for no mods, and thats clearly not true anymore.

 

If zoom in VR is wrong its up to devs to fix it, if guy can do it with mod which use can not be controled by game, devs can also do it, and it can be controled then.

Edited May 6, 2020 by CountZero

[Talisman]

1 hour ago, Cow_Art said:

Related question for spotting in VR:  is everyone using migoto or a similar zoom mod to be competitive in VR multiplayer? As migoto seems to be a hassle to set up and is considered a cheat by some I would much prefer to just stick with the base game. But I currently have a really hard time identifying aircraft in VR (Valve Index).

Do I just need to practice more or am I unreasonably holding myself back by not using a zoom mod?

 

Firstly I will stress that I am into IL-2 GB for the MP experience and belong to an on-line squad.  You are not on your own.  I use VR (Pimax 5k+) and I don't use any mods.  I have always been rather cautious about mods and am not really keen on them.  I think the onus is on the developers to come up with the goods to meet customer needs.  Mods also have the potential to split the community.  Fine if a mod is supported by the developers, but if not then I tend to try and avoid them.

 

Regarding the zoom mod specifically, as a VR user I feel at a disadvantage to flat screen TIR users who have a stronger stock game zoom and can also use the migoto mod and also at a disadvantage to other VR users using the migoto zoom mod.  But that is my choice at the moment and I live with it because I don't want to use the zoom mod on principle.  However, I can't help feeling a little let down by the developers at the moment regarding all this, although I think I can see their difficulty and trust that they will eventually come up with a better way for all of us.  I think that the developers have a difficult balancing act to perform, but I hope they can improve things soon.

 

I find that I can usually identify aircraft OK, but spotting them in the first place and keeping them in view without them disappearing is not good in the simulation at the moment IMHO.   

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

Edited May 6, 2020 by 56RAF_Talisman

[Cow_Art]

Thanks for the replies! Just to make that clear: i was not trying to start another "is migoto a cheat?" discussion. I recently started with IL2 Multiplayer and I currently suck as much as can be expected for a noob (especially when it comes to spotting/identifying planes ).   I was just trying to figure out if I am doing something fundamentally stupid that no seasoned player would do in multiplayer (similar to holding yourself back by flying the plane with mouse/keyboard).

 

Thanks again! I'll just keep practicing then

[CountZero]

1 hour ago, Cow_Art said:

Thanks for the replies! Just to make that clear: i was not trying to start another "is migoto a cheat?" discussion. I recently started with IL2 Multiplayer and I currently suck as much as can be expected for a noob (especially when it comes to spotting/identifying planes ).   I was just trying to figure out if I am doing something fundamentally stupid that no seasoned player would do in multiplayer (similar to holding yourself back by flying the plane with mouse/keyboard).

 

Thanks again! I'll just keep practicing then

Then yes your putting your self at disadvantage by not using mod that others use, and no one knows if you use it or not or no one can prevent you from using it in game so to not use it is pointles.

[Guest deleted@134347]

49 minutes ago, Cow_Art said:

Thanks for the replies! Just to make that clear: i was not trying to start another "is migoto a cheat?" discussion. I recently started with IL2 Multiplayer and I currently suck as much as can be expected for a noob (especially when it comes to spotting/identifying planes ).   I was just trying to figure out if I am doing something fundamentally stupid that no seasoned player would do in multiplayer (similar to holding yourself back by flying the plane with mouse/keyboard).

 

Thanks again! I'll just keep practicing then

 

- flying low and alone = 90% chance of not coming back alive

- flying high and alone = 50% chance of not coming back

 

Spotting is #1 priority for survival. Migoto doesn't help with that. Unfortunately, like the mincer said, the close spotting is always 'accidental', i.e. the plane just appears near you, regardless of your video/game settings. So every time it's always about who spots first upclose - you or the enemy. The migoto 'distant' spotting doesn't help either since you'll lose the target the closer you get to it, only for it to emerge near your nose/six out of nowhere.

 

If you want to survive you can stay high and on top.

 

 

 

 

[=EXPEND=Capt_Yorkshire]

Does anyone know if are we getting a spotting fix in the future ? i was quite happy with it a couple of years back .

[Barnacles]

5 minutes ago, =EXPEND=Capt_Yorkshire said:

Does anyone know if are we getting a spotting fix in the future ? i was quite happy with it a couple of years back .

Spotting is working as intended, as far as I know. The Dev's are aware of the separate bug, which causes planes to completely disappear on MP servers occasionally, so I assume that will be investigated.

 

 

[Hawk-2a]

"Q. I'm having trouble spotting aircraft. Am I blind?

 

A. This is a complicated subject and our Lead Engineer Petrovich has agreed to head up our efforts to find new ways to improve spotting. He has spoken about this on the Russian language forum where it is easier for him to communicate. This will not be short process. In the past we received complaints about not being able to see aircraft beyond 10km. So, we improved that and then some complained you could see them too far away. So, we changed it back to something more realistic and the complaints started again. So, I decided to give you two options for spotting at longer ranges and the complaints continue, but in a different way. We understand that the current complaint is mostly about spotting within what most consider close range. i.e. a few kilometers away. This is a bit weird for us, because with each iteration we made no purposeful changes to visibility 0-10 km away. Why all of a sudden this is a problem we don't know exactly. Right now, we don’t have a clear answer and there are different opinions on visual spotting from real pilots we know and then there’s scientific arguments on the subject. Which is right and what should we change is unknown at this time, but we will continue to research the issue. However, a big change is unlikely in the very near future. We want to get it right next time and be done and not keep making changes. As stated above, we have tried to leave visibility the same from 0-10km in each iteration, but all of a sudden it has become an issue after the changes to long distance spotting. It’s a little bit baffling to us as we don't know what exactly changed."

 

 

 

[SharpeXB]

I’ve used a VR headset although not for gaming. So I know what VR is like, actually it’s easy to imagine. It just looks real. Like you’re really there. 
But I can’t imagine what VR Zoom View would look like. How does that work? Does it just move your viewpoint closer to the direction you’re looking in? Can you move or turn your head when zoomed in? I can’t imagine what that would look like and it seems like it would make you sick. 

[Hellequin13]

It compresses the depth, similar to how binoculars will, where the perceived distance between foreground and background objects are flattened, but unlike the binoculars, the edge of the field of view compresses more, which results in warping when you turn your head, inducing nausea.

 

It's  probably not so much that it is flattened more at the edges, rather that it is equally flattened, but computers operate on a cubic projection, whereas reality is more radian based, so the math just doesn't work for getting a good representation of looking through a magnified view.

[SharpeXB]

19 minutes ago, Hellequin13 said:

It compresses the depth, similar to how binoculars will, where the perceived distance between foreground and background objects are flattened, but unlike the binoculars, the edge of the field of view compresses more, which results in warping when you turn your head, inducing nausea.

 

It's  probably not so much that it is flattened more at the edges, rather that it is equally flattened, but computers operate on a cubic projection, whereas reality is more radian based, so the math just doesn't work for getting a good representation of looking through a magnified view.

So does it make sense that the Devs limited this to 1.5x because at higher values it would be more sickness inducing?

[Guest deleted@134347]

5 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

So does it make sense that the Devs limited this to 1.5x because at higher values it would be more sickness inducing?

 

no, because the "sickness" is a personal and extremely subjective experience. On top of it you can train your brain to overcome it.

 

Like in the newly released HalfLife game for VR it includes 2 modes of locomotion:  A) Teleport (or whatever it's called where you point at a place, click a button and your body gets transported there immediately)   and  B) smooth regular locomotion, where you press a button and start virtually walking there.  Some people, the newcomers specifically, have a challenge dealing with smooth locomotion, so they use the Teleport system.  After a while when your brain gets acclimated to the so called virtual disconnect  (eyes see the world move but there's not physical feedback in the body) you'll stop getting the nausea and can switch to the smooth locomotion.

 

The same story with flying, zoomed while flying, moving your head while zoomed, etc etc etc.

[blitze]

Depends on the display hardware and everyone should cherish the thought that anything mentioned with Spotting in Il2 in it's current guise will be thrown out the window (most likely) with the Deferred Rendering Update down the track. ?

 

If you have a 4K large screen (40 or more Inches) or VR with decent render resolution, not such an issue.  Keep your head on a swivel and look for dots - gunfire - fly over objective areas for the enemy on your online map.

 

If looking for Luftwaffe fighters, know they usually linger above VVS Ground Objectives just at 10K m altitude.  To bring them to you, lightly strafe a ground target to wake up its AA and then watch the LW Fighters rain down from above (just drag them over your lines before engaging them).  Same as it ever has been.?

[VR-DriftaholiC]

IMO the best way to improve the spotting in game is to beg and plead with the developers to make it a priority. 

[SJ_Butcher]

And if someone comes here saying that don't have problems he/she should post the monitor model and I will buy the god damn thing to test(144hz minimum)

[[CPT]Crunch]

Quote

This is a bit weird for us, because with each iteration we made no purposeful changes to visibility 0-10 km away. Why all of a sudden this is a problem we don't know exactly.

No big mystery, no one was able to see them at the farther ranges, and what you couldn't see isn't missed.  Out of sight, out of mind, that all changed when the disappearing act became visible.

[Guest deleted@134347]

17 hours ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

No big mystery, no one was able to see them at the farther ranges, and what you couldn't see isn't missed.  Out of sight, out of mind, that all changed when the disappearing act became visible.

 

the main spotting problem isn't the disappearing planes. It's the planes blending in with the ground/sky. Frankly, I can't remember exactly when it was changed, but it was sometime during the middle of the 3.x run. Prior to that I clearly remember spotting fw-190's and 109's against the ground when they were in their front/rear profile, as well as the side profile. The models had a black silhoette with some minute gray pixels in the center. Currently, it's completely opposite, the other way around. The models are colored from the outside of the profile to the center as as light gray-> gray-> dark gray-> black, with black being just 1 or 2 pixels total. So it's extremely difficult for the brain to recognize the aircraft shape even if you're looking straight at it, as all you see is those 2-3 black pixels and can't figure out if it's part of the landscape or something independent.

Edited May 7, 2020 by Count_de_Money

[zdog0331]

Personally i find that i can spot planes without any zoom mods in vr, but that being said it was an acquired skill.  Basically the trick is to look for anything out of place.  Planes tend to have a different texture and feel than the rest of area and if close are moving so they are seeable even to far distances.  However it is very subtle and requires practice.  There are some "tricks" you can do with a monitor such as zoom which does help such as lowering your resolution, but again you can still learn to spot the targets.  

 

So as much as people can talk about this with various methods and screen tweaks to make things easier, the best way to spot planes it to practice spotting planes.  There are a couple of ways of doing this:

1. the best way of doing this is to get on discord in one of the multiplayer servers and join a flight of people.  Preferably people who are good at spotting and work together with them.  They will call out enemies which will tell you where to look which makes being able to see the 1-3 pixel dot on your screen much easier when you can focus on a single area.  The more you do this the more you will get a sense of what you are looking for.

2.  Play single player with labels ON.  Once you see the planes come barely in range for them to be spotted by labels, turn them off and try to keep an eye on them.  If you loose them for sure as in more than 30 seconds of not seeing them, turn the labels back on.  Also try to dogfight with labels turned off.  But you can use the labels as sort of like a wing-man telling you where to look and turn off the aid once you know the direction they are in.  This isn't as good, but you can still get a feeling for what you are looking for by simply seeing and tracking the planes.  You can do things like look away once you get a general location from your label and try to re-spot them without the label turned on after turning away for 5-10 seconds.

 

 

Now lastly I will say what the most important tip for multiplayer is.  Learn the map intimately.  You need to simply know where you are by looking at the ground.  There are rivers cities and mountains which act as land marks and you can learn them.  Start in an easier setting like kuban, stalingrad, or the WWI map and learn it (moscow and bodenplatte are the hardest maps to learn so don't start there).  You will then begin to know where various airfields and targets are for both teams.  When you know where the targets are and where people are taking off from you can have an idea as to where to look.  

 

Now as far as the easiest place to learn in my opinion is the WWI server because everything is easier as far as spotting goes.  The map is by far the easiest thing to learn due to the river in the south and the front which stretches the entire map telling you where the lines are.  You also are fighting slow WWI planes which means that not only are the larger targets to spot, but they are also easier to identify friend from foe due to the distinctness of the aircraft.  All of this makes it the perfect place to spot in my opinion.  Just make sure to fly with at least 1 wing-man who has some competency spotting so that they can carry you as you get the gist and the more eyes in the sky, the more likely they are to catch a nondescript pixel out of the corner of their eye.

 

Good luck

[4thFG_Cap_D_Gentile]

Play flying circus instead, SE5 is bigger than a 47 on your screen, weird.

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

On 5/5/2020 at 4:55 PM, =[TIA]=Stoopy said:

I added this device to my TrackIR, and also adapted it to work with my VR headset:

 

 

On 5/5/2020 at 5:05 PM, mincer said:

I have one question: does it help?

 

On 5/5/2020 at 6:56 PM, =[TIA]=Stoopy said:

 

Well... no.

 

Follow up question:  Do you have the ol' Ludwig Van blasting at full volume?  If no, it may be the reason why it's not working!  

[Stoopy]

59 minutes ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said:

Follow up question:  Do you have the ol' Ludwig Van blasting at full volume?  If no, it may be the reason why it's not working!  

 

Not no more, guv.  For some reason it makes me feel funny all in me gutty-wuts.  I much rather like how the FW190 purrs away real horror show. 

[MattS]

On 5/5/2020 at 5:05 PM, mincer said:

I have one question: does it help?

 

On 5/5/2020 at 6:56 PM, =[TIA]=Stoopy said:

 

Well... no.

 

This describes basically anything I try to "improve" in life. In physics terms the effort generate lots of heat and light, but not much usable work ? 

 

 

[Giovanni_Giorgio]

I feel like a big problem is that it is often possible to reliably spot planes within 10k only with the max zoom and you have to stare for a couple of seconds. At the same time, it is impossible to scan the whole airspace like that quickly.

[SCG_Wulfe]

The other problem is planes literally popping in and out of visibility at certain ranges (actually disappearing and reappearing). This is infuriating when you've locked onto a contact that you are setting up a pass on. 

[Giovanni_Giorgio]

16 minutes ago, SCG_Wulfe said:

The other problem is planes literally popping in and out of visibility at certain ranges (actually disappearing and reappearing). This is infuriating when you've locked onto a contact that you are setting up a pass on. 

Yes. What often happens to me is I see someone, then I try to look around to see if there is anyone else before making an attack, and can't find the contact I wanted to attack in the first place again.

[Ala13_UnopaUno_VR]

+10km white

10/7km invisible

-5km black

 

[SCG_Wulfe]

4 minutes ago, Ala13_UnopaUno_VR said:

+10km white

10/7km invisible

-5km black

 

 

Yep exactly. I regularly watch them disappear in front of my eyes in this range while I am staring right at them, I continue to stare at the area where I lost them as I close, only to actually see them pop in again as I get closer. 

[Guest deleted@134347]

1 hour ago, Ala13_UnopaUno_VR said:

+10km white

10/7km invisible

-5km black

 

 

+10km white

10/7km invisible

-5km black

-1 km gray or light gray and merges with background

- 500m all hues of gray, light gray, dark gray and merges with background

 

 

1 hour ago, Ala13_UnopaUno_VR said:

+10km white

10/7km invisible

-5km black

 

 

the devs are hoping for the improvement using the deferred shading:

 

[Giovanni_Giorgio]

1 hour ago, Count_de_Money said:

 

+10km white

10/7km invisible

-5km black

-1 km gray or light gray and merges with background

- 500m all hues of gray, light gray, dark gray and merges with background

 

 

 

the devs are hoping for the improvement using the deferred shading:

 

 

 

[Giovanni_Giorgio]

I have a question for experienced pilots here. A common tactics to intercept bombers/attackers is to "sit on the traffic" from airfields to the target instead of hovering right over it. I find it insanely hard to spot anything this way. I did some experiments on popular servers, basically staying at the edge of flak range of enemy airfields on the expected route to the targets being attacked.

 

I recorded tracks, and I miss a ton of flights passing right below me. It is especially hard if I stay at mid altitude, like 3-5k. If I am lower (often because of clouds), the chances are a bit better, but it feels like playing Russian roulette. How do you guys do that?

Also, I noticed that when it is dark, like early in the morning or late in the evening, contacts are often visible as highly contrast turquoise dots. Why is that?

 

 

[Birdman]

1 hour ago, mincer said:

I did some experiments on popular servers, basically staying at the edge of flak range of enemy airfields on the expected route to the targets being attacked.

You'll get a lot of hate doing that.