Bomber orientated MP server

[Talisman]

 I have been thinking that it might be nice if someone on day provided a MP server leaning a little more towards bomber operations advantage than fighter advantage.  Still having fighters of course, but with conditions advantageous for bomber activity.  Time of day and/or weather that would have been chosen for daylight, or poor light (not full darkness), bomber missions and particular targets during WW2.  Challenging weather, challenging navigation and distance to target, that sort of thing.  Still with the hazard of human player fighter activity, but not so easy for the fighters as most MP servers.  Might even encourage human crewing of multi-crew bomber stations.

 

Do folks think a MP server like that would be worth having?

 

This is just me dreaming a bit because I don't have the first clue of how to host a server or make a mission, lol.  Just interested in what folks might think about the idea.

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

[Dakpilot]

Pretty sure Friday night bomber flight server/event was very popular. 

 

I think the idea would be considered favorably , just a lot of work needed to make it happen and to keep it running 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

[Barnacles]

7 minutes ago, 56RAF_Talisman said:

 I have been thinking that it might be nice if someone on day provided a MP server leaning a little more towards bomber operations advantage than fighter advantage.  Still having fighters of course, but with conditions advantageous for bomber activity.  Time of day and/or weather that would have been chosen for daylight, or poor light (not full darkness), bomber missions and particular targets during WW2.  Challenging weather, challenging navigation and distance to target, that sort of thing.  Still with the hazard of human player fighter activity, but not so easy for the fighters as most MP servers.  Might even encourage human crewing of multi-crew bomber stations.

 

Do folks think a MP server like that would be worth having?

 

This is just me dreaming a bit because I don't have the first clue of how to host a server or make a mission, lol.  Just interested in what folks might think about the idea.

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

I've never tried setting up a co-op mission but apparently it's simple. You can generate co-op mission with PWCG. That might be the best way.

[Sybreed]

23 minutes ago, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

I've never tried setting up a co-op mission but apparently it's simple. You can generate co-op mission with PWCG. That might be the best way.

 

yes, but there are no respawns. If someone dies at the beginning of the mission, he has to wait it out.

[Ribbon]

It could be done by simply limiting fighter numbers in relation to bomber numbers so in any moment there is ratio of 4:1 or 3:1 in bombers favour which historically was more accurate than we have now on other servers where fighter vs bomber ratio is 9:1 which is kind of funny, especially when ppl start with historical accuracy on fighter numbers forgeting about absence of bombers.

[56RAF_Roblex]

44 minutes ago, Dakpilot said:

Pretty sure Friday night bomber flight server/event was very popular. 

 

I think the idea would be considered favorably , just a lot of work needed to make it happen and to keep it running 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

 

I flew that a few times but although I loved it,  it wasn't really any more 'bomber friendly' than the normal servers.  It was just that the victory conditions were chosen to suit  bombers rather than fighters with bombs.    I think Talisman was thinking more of a server designed to make it harder for the fighters to find the bombers because of poor light and/or heavy cloud.  

Perhaps if the bombers had airstarts at high altitude right at the edge of the map while the fighters had a ground start right at the edge of the map then the idea of flying the whole width of the map to camp the spawn points is not so appealing.  Maybe also some lethally accurate high level AAA under the bomber spawn points.   On the other hand would it be better to let the fighters spawn at altitude as well so the escorts can join them immediately? 

[Ribbon]

8 minutes ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

 

I flew that a few times but although I loved it,  it wasn't really any more 'bomber friendly' than the normal servers.  It was just that the victory conditions were chosen to suit  bombers rather than fighters with bombs.    I think Talisman was thinking more of a server designed to make it harder for the fighters to find the bombers because of poor light and/or heavy cloud.  

Perhaps if the bombers had airstarts at high altitude right at the edge of the map while the fighters had a ground start right at the edge of the map then the idea of flying the whole width of the map to camp the spawn points is not so appealing.  Maybe also some lethally accurate high level AAA under the bomber spawn points.   On the other hand would it be better to let the fighters spawn at altitude as well so the escorts can join them immediately? 

You'd still have a problem if planeset has no restrictions and from 84 players on server 70 of them pick fighter role leaving 14 bomber slots.

Just limit number of fighter slots in relation to bomber slots, one fighter on 3-4 bombers will have hard time attacking them, it's not all in avoiding contact.

3 out of 4 bombers will get back home, fighter will be in many cases damaged or downed and sometimes get home alive (irrelevant).....i see this scenario historically quite accurate!

[CountZero]

Its fighter player game, and last realistic bomb damages push that even more to fighters side, bombers are pointles with how targets get destroyed, especialy high alt.

They need to add area bomb option, so you can count tonnage number of bombs drop in it and close objectives like that , insted destroy % objects like its now.

In clod you could have option online to spawn with aditional AI next to your bomber, that would also help if game wonts more bomber players, but then you need to have less slots if you alow players to spawn with AI to make his chances higher online like clod can.

And gunners are only defence of bomber players so they have to be high skill, but that dont fit fighter players so that also makes most servers fighters or GA only and bombers are rear.

Edited April 22, 2020 by CountZero

[Lusekofte]

20 hours ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

flew that a few times but although I loved it,  it wasn't really any more 'bomber friendly' than the normal servers

It was

because fighters was assigned to escort. 
Everyone except from those gave shit had orders to follow. 
I think such a server is a good idea, but making it difficult for fighters will bring few of them in. 
I personally think it is possible to have it more balanced and reward on saving bombers aswell as shooting them down. Kind of a main purpose to bring bombers to target or prevent them. 
Problem is how to make it in stats. And make it interesting for all parties. 
I think people like me are moving away from MP

and go for more objective and strategy oriented singel player. 
I think I spend less than a hour week on mp now

[Guest deleted@134347]

I'm all for this idea, or some sort of a server controlled setting similar to AA, but for bomber gunners. I.e. set them on "high" and get the aim-bot like precision so it requires multiple aircraft to bring down a bomber instead of a single player. It's exactly the same with ground objects in TAW. where AA will shred you to pieces if you're alone.

 

Otherwise here's a typical scenario. Yesterday I flew on Combat box in Ju88. I was surrounded by enemy planes, literally there were 4 of them within 100m to 300m radius of the plane. Only 1 freaking gunner opened fire (very briefly, may be a 0.5 sec burst) instead of all of them. And the reason? There were 'friendly' aircrafts nearby as well.  I was chasing a P40, who was chasing a 110, the p40 was literally 50 meters ahead of me and the Ju88 front gunner didn't fire a single freaking shot... only because there was a bf-110 about 500 meters ahead. I was screaming: "Take a shot you bastard!.. Here's right in front you.. idiot..!".. I was even contemplating taking over the front gunner but I was in a bank maneuver and 100 meters above ground..

 

Frustrating to say the least.

Edited April 22, 2020 by Count_de_Money

[CountZero]

10 minutes ago, Count_de_Money said:

I'm all for this idea, or some sort of a server controlled setting similar to AA, but for bomber gunners. I.e. set them on "high" and get the aim-bot like precision so it requires multiple aircraft to bring down a bomber instead of a single player. It's exactly the same with ground objects in TAW. where AA will shred you to pieces if you're alone.

 

Otherwise here's a typical scenario. Yesterday I flew on Combat box in Ju88. I was surrounded by enemy planes, literally there were 4 of them within 100m to 300m radius of the plane. Only 1 freaking gunner opened fire (very briefly, may be a 0.5 sec burst) instead of all of them. And the reason? There were 'friendly' aircrafts nearby as well.  I was chasing a P40, who was chasing a 110, the p40 was literally 50 meters ahead of me and the Ju88 front gunner didn't fire a single freaking shot... only because there was a bf-110 about 500 meters ahead. I was screaming: "Take a shot you bastard!.. Here's right in front you.. idiot..!".. I was even contemplating taking over the front gunner but I was in a bank maneuver and 100 meters above ground..

 

Frustrating to say the least.

 

By default your rear gunners are set to fire only when fired upon, and set to medium distance. Maybe you didnt change that when you spawned to fire at will and long range ?

[Guest deleted@134347]

3 minutes ago, CountZero said:

 

By default your rear gunners are set to fire only when fired upon, and set to medium distance. Maybe you didnt change that when you spawned to fire at will and long range ?

 

they were set for that alright.  They fired at will at a single passing enemy aircraft, but were dumbfounded as soon as the friendly showed up.

[CountZero]

7 minutes ago, Count_de_Money said:

 

they were set for that alright.  They fired at will at a single passing enemy aircraft, but were dumbfounded as soon as the friendly showed up.

Then its probably to low AI gunner skill to help fighter guys feal better

Edited April 22, 2020 by CountZero

[BlitzPig_EL]

And here is the conundrum.  In real life, bomber gunners did not shoot down vast numbers of attacking fighters, yes they instilled fear in the attackers, but the actual number of shoot downs was pretty small.  In the Sim however, ace AI are sniping bastages that guarantee that the attacker will, at minimum, take enough damage to force an RTB, and often bring down his aircraft.

 

So, how do you balance the interactions between bombers and fighters to make both sides WANT to play this kind of mission?  You have diametrically opposed goals here.  Bomber pilots want to blow stuff up, without those pesky fighters messing up their fun, and fighter pilots want to shoot down airplanes, because that's what is fun for them.

 

I sure have no answer.  Personally, I like to do both, so the middle ground of flying in the attack role works for me.

I have flown bombers, and enjoy a good bomb drop from altitude, in fact the BlitzPigs have started practicing bomber missions, it presents interesting challenges, but I would still rather have my A20 down in the weeds, with the rest of my flight, attacking the target from different directions at the same time.  It just feels more safe, and satisfying, than just hanging in formation up high, waiting helplessly to be blown up by flak.

[ShamrockOneFive]

23 hours ago, 56RAF_Talisman said:

 I have been thinking that it might be nice if someone on day provided a MP server leaning a little more towards bomber operations advantage than fighter advantage.  Still having fighters of course, but with conditions advantageous for bomber activity.  Time of day and/or weather that would have been chosen for daylight, or poor light (not full darkness), bomber missions and particular targets during WW2.  Challenging weather, challenging navigation and distance to target, that sort of thing.  Still with the hazard of human player fighter activity, but not so easy for the fighters as most MP servers.  Might even encourage human crewing of multi-crew bomber stations.

 

Do folks think a MP server like that would be worth having?

 

This is just me dreaming a bit because I don't have the first clue of how to host a server or make a mission, lol.  Just interested in what folks might think about the idea.

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

 

IMHO, what you're describing is what some of the bomber squadrons tend to do on servers like TAW where strategic bombing objectives make a real impact on the course of the battle. I've seen 9 person Pe-2 flights do level bombing (and dive) on an industrial target zone for example.

 

I think what you're more looking for is a squadron that does the kind of teamwork necessary to make a combat sortie like that work. I.e. a dedicated group, a formation structure for maximum defense, maybe escorting fighters, and a planned route for maximum potential to break through enemy combat air.

[Guest deleted@134347]

10 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

IMHO, what you're describing is what some of the bomber squadrons tend to do on servers like TAW where strategic bombing objectives make a real impact on the course of the battle. I've seen 9 person Pe-2 flights do level bombing (and dive) on an industrial target zone for example.

 

I think what you're more looking for is a squadron that does the kind of teamwork necessary to make a combat sortie like that work. I.e. a dedicated group, a formation structure for maximum defense, maybe escorting fighters, and a planned route for maximum potential to break through enemy combat air.

 

if that's the only feasible way to successfully play the bomber missions then this conversation is pointless.

[ShamrockOneFive]

11 minutes ago, Count_de_Money said:

 

if that's the only feasible way to successfully play the bomber missions then this conversation is pointless.

I'm really not sure what you mean.

 

How else are bombers supposed to be flown? I mean the point of a bomber in WWII is largely for strategic purposes. So you need a scenario with a strategic purpose (TAW has that so check), then you need to fly in an organized group to ensure maximum payload on target and layered defense of the bomber group, and then you need to plan your route. That's pretty much the epitome of bomber operations in WWII.

 

There's the more tactical operations as well which is certainly more my style. I tend to fly with a group anywhere between 3 and 8 usually doing low level attack runs in A-20's (usually) at treetop height hoping for speed, terrain following, and surprise to avoid fighter defenses. Mostly it works. We've also done that with other bomber types.

[Guest deleted@134347]

17 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

I'm really not sure what you mean.

 

How else are bombers supposed to be flown? I mean the point of a bomber in WWII is largely for strategic purposes. So you need a scenario with a strategic purpose (TAW has that so check), then you need to fly in an organized group to ensure maximum payload on target and layered defense of the bomber group, and then you need to plan your route. That's pretty much the epitome of bomber operations in WWII.

 

There's the more tactical operations as well which is certainly more my style. I tend to fly with a group anywhere between 3 and 8 usually doing low level attack runs in A-20's (usually) at treetop height hoping for speed, terrain following, and surprise to avoid fighter defenses. Mostly it works. We've also done that with other bomber types.

 

You forget 2 important things.

 

1) it's a computer game, not a war

2) there's no in-game voip for on-the-fly organization of such bomber squadrons. Even with the on-line squads there's a problem where you need all people to be available at the same time in order to pull it off. People who are not in squads for various reasons have no meaningful way to fly bombers in MP without getting obliterated as soon as they get to the objective.

 

edit:  this topic is about how to make the bombers more accessible and enjoyable in MP without the need to have a week-long planning session with your squad buddies on when/where to fly.

 

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by Count_de_Money

[ShamrockOneFive]

2 hours ago, Count_de_Money said:

 

You forget 2 important things.

 

1) it's a computer game, not a war

2) there's no in-game voip for on-the-fly organization of such bomber squadrons. Even with the on-line squads there's a problem where you need all people to be available at the same time in order to pull it off. People who are not in squads for various reasons have no meaningful way to fly bombers in MP without getting obliterated as soon as they get to the objective.

 

edit:  this topic is about how to make the bombers more accessible and enjoyable in MP without the need to have a week-long planning session with your squad buddies on when/where to fly.

 

 

 

Retaining perspective is important, true. It is a video game for sure but it's also one that tries its best to replicate reality to some degree. That does meant that some realistic considerations are required.

 

There is no in-game voip no but there's now Discord servers setup for nearly every multiplayer server out there and its easy enough to spin a new one up for free too so the barriers to access there are much lower than they used to be. I do love having SRS in DCS World so I get the appeal of spontaneous team play but for the time being the developers have said that this isn't on their radar and fair enough... there are other things to deal with.

 

The purpose of making bombers more accessible is at cross purposes with the desire to fly and have realistic bombers. Most of what the OP is asking for already exists (the weather, the targets, etc.). The rest of it is up to player organization. A singleton bomber isn't going to stand a chance and no amount of tweaking server settings is going to make that work much better. As soon as you're spotted things go downhill fast... Unless you're in a group. And that doesn't change much if you make that bomber a heavy bomber of some sort.

 

But I will ask the legitimate question then... If I've missed the mark (and hey, I have more than a few times), what do you do to make bombers more accessible. Beyond what the OP has mentioned.

[56RAF_Roblex]

4 hours ago, 216th_LuseKofte said:

....

I personally think it is possible to have it more balanced and reward on saving bombers aswell as shooting them down. Kind of a main purpose to bring bombers to target or prevent them. 
Problem is how to make it in stats. And make it interesting for all parties. 
I think people like me are moving away from MP

and go for more objective and strategy oriented singel player. 
I think I spend less than a hour week on mp now

 

 There have definitely been servers (still are?) that awarded fighter pilots extra points or a points multiplier for being on the winning side when the map ended so it benefited them to help the bombers hit the required targets rather than just use them as bait to to get kills.  Maybe I am remembering a  dream but I seem to remember a server that gave a fighter a share of the bombers score, which would of course be bigger if the bomber got home alive, but I cannot think how that would be achieved ie how would it link a fighter to a specific bomber?

 

It is definitely possible, but perhaps too tricky, to give a pilot  a bonus for sharing a kill with a bomber and by 'sharing' I mean 'The bombers gunners hit the enemy fighter at least once'.  We already recognise shared kills so I would be surprised if we cannot see what aircraft you are sharing with.  This would mean that it would be beneficial to attack a fighter that is attacking a  bomber.  It would also make it beneficial for bombers to group up as then they would all be boosting each other.  Unfortunately that would not stop score whore fighters from just letting the bomber die then killing the enemy later when it may be wounded.  It would also mean that killing an enemy before it even attacks the bomber would be counter-productive though that is still better for the bomber ie the Tuskagee pilots were not popular with the bombers because they scored lots of kills, they were popular because they stayed with the bombers rather than go chasing fighters that were not an immediate threat.

12 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

But I will ask the legitimate question then... If I've missed the mark (and hey, I have more than a few times), what do you do to make bombers more accessible. Beyond what the OP has mentioned.

 

There was one thing that was not in the original post but I heard Talisman say elsewhere.  When he mentioned 'bad weather' being good for bombers, he was at least partially thinking about low cloud and that does make some sense. If the bombers are sneaking to the target at treetops under a solid layer at 1000ft  then it will be hard for the fighters to find them.

Edited April 22, 2020 by 56RAF_Roblex

[Guest deleted@134347]

27 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

But I will ask the legitimate question then... If I've missed the mark (and hey, I have more than a few times), what do you do to make bombers more accessible. Beyond what the OP has mentioned.

 

better gunner protection, i.e. the gunner precision, similar to AA set to "high" in TAW.

 

Following the same rationale of TAW.  Why did the mission designers think that there shouldn't be a single attacker against the ground objects?  The same train of thought should be against attacking the heavy bomber(s) with 3+ guns.  Now you can have a single fighter take out a heavily protected plane with ease.

[ShamrockOneFive]

1 hour ago, Count_de_Money said:

 

better gunner protection, i.e. the gunner precision, similar to AA set to "high" in TAW.

 

Following the same rationale of TAW.  Why did the mission designers think that there shouldn't be a single attacker against the ground objects?  The same train of thought should be against attacking the heavy bomber(s) with 3+ guns.  Now you can have a single fighter take out a heavily protected plane with ease.

 

I'm willing to bet you're not going to get a lot of support on the first one. A lot of people already think gunner accuracy is too high.

 

What missions are you specifically talking about here? Single player?

[Guest deleted@134347]

1 minute ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

I'm willing to bet you're not going to get a lot of support on the first one. A lot of people already think gunner accuracy is too high.

 

What missions are you specifically talking about here? Single player?

 

i'm asking for it to be definable by the mission maker / server host similar to how one can set it for AA. .. and this is for MP.

[ShamrockOneFive]

1 hour ago, Count_de_Money said:

 

i'm asking for it to be definable by the mission maker / server host similar to how one can set it for AA. .. and this is for MP.

 

Oh you mean the default setting for gunner AI? That's already a thing. Some servers have it set higher than others.

[CountZero]

4 hours ago, Count_de_Money said:

 

i'm asking for it to be definable by the mission maker / server host similar to how one can set it for AA. .. and this is for MP.

Thats up to servers, some have default, some random and some max skill. On WoL they are set to Ace and to me thats the only way to give any chance to bomber players to give fear to attackers as attacking formation of bombers would give, your comparison with AA is correct , if you have to have highest skill as you cant use real numbers of them, same should go for bomber airplanes, AI gunners should be maxed out, to give fear to attacker he would have in ww2 attacking bombers.

 

Also what i think is inverted is fighter or GA is 100pts on WoL, but bomber is 200pts, so your making easyest target to be most lucrative for farmers, so bomber players are hunted even more, it should be oposite, bomber airplanes should give less points then fighters and GA airplanes.

 

What devs should think to add is some super flak, so servers can use 1-2 and place them on bases to prevent constant camping and vulching, as normal amounts of flaks cant be on server because performance, and even highest flak now in game cant do mutch vs vulchers in fast airplanes.

[Guest deleted@134347]

4 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

Oh you mean the default setting for gunner AI? That's already a thing. Some servers have it set higher than others.

 

oh.. I had no idea that the gunner AI is controllable by the server mission admin/maker..

 

I guess, maybe increase it to 3xAce then? ?

1 hour ago, CountZero said:

Thats up to servers, some have default, some random and some max skill. On WoL they are set to Ace and to me thats the only way to give any chance to bomber players to give fear to attackers as attacking formation of bombers would give, your comparison with AA is correct , if you have to have highest skill as you cant use real numbers of them, same should go for bomber airplanes, AI gunners should be maxed out, to give fear to attacker he would have in ww2 attacking bombers.

 

Also what i think is inverted is fighter or GA is 100pts on WoL, but bomber is 200pts, so your making easyest target to be most lucrative for farmers, so bomber players are hunted even more, it should be oposite, bomber airplanes should give less points then fighters and GA airplanes.

 

What devs should think to add is some super flak, so servers can use 1-2 and place them on bases to prevent constant camping and vulching, as normal amounts of flaks cant be on server because performance, and even highest flak now in game cant do mutch vs vulchers in fast airplanes.

 

WOL is all backwards in terms of the expected gameplay, but it's their right, I still enjoy flying there..  I had no idea that the gunner AI setting is controlled by the server, which is cool. Although I do still think that it should be increased x2 or x3 times, similar to the AA, i.e. have the ability to hit the aircraft from 500-700 meters away, again, similar to TAW aim-bot AA. To instill fear, like you said! ?

[ShamrockOneFive]

Frankly, even on Ace, those gunners are pulling off some sniper shots and bombers that fly solo still get cut out of the sky all the time. It comes back to the tactics involved which means flying as a group, flying with a plan, and executing your bomber strikes that way. You can do the other method but if you get shot down all the time you can only externalize the problem so much through mission design.