Tempest wing failure

[69th_Bazzer]

Since the last hotfix (at least when I noticed it), the Tempest wing is failing at way too high a rate. Twice today on combat box I snapped the left wing off pulling a split-S at idle throttle, and this is now about the 6th time overall. Both times I was undamaged by enemy fire and it was my first high-g maneuver of the sortie. I was grey but staying short of g-loc in the pullout, so somewhere 5g's or below. That wing is rated for 12g. I don't know what you changed, but the wing spar is now far too weak.

[RedKestrel]

Maybe worth testing in QMB to see if you can duplicate. Or take a track next time you take the Tempest up on CB. 

[QB.Shallot]

^ Providing a TacView Track would help shed a lot of light on the situation. It would allow you to get an exact read on the G-Load, and if it is bugged, provide hard proof to the devs that there's an error they need to fix. 

[RedKestrel]

For what its worth I did a couple split S's in a Tempest online last night, neither at idle, I believe I was at the 1 hour climb power setting. Once I blacked out completely and another time I got all the way down to tunnel vision, so at least 6 Gs or more. No airframe damage to speak of, though I just barely managed to not lawndart due to the G-forces.

I wonder if the damage was caused by some kind of bugged instantaneous elevator input that shot the G-forces up extremely high very briefly ? Something like that was causing rudder and tail stabilizer losses some time ago and was corrected.

[E69_geramos109]

It happens to me as well on the tempest quite often. Negative Gs followed by positive Gs on fast pulls and wing is gone. 

Typical situation aiming someone over 600 who is evading the shots. 

 

I reproduced that on this video minute 41:46 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2tuEkG3AWQ&lc=Ugx9RIgInaILJ2t5xpJ4AaABAg.97kSmlqCjzm97kUTeOfQkp

 

Video Is pre 4.005 but now is still the same

 

[Blackhawk_FR]

On 4/20/2020 at 10:44 PM, 69th_Bazzer said:

Since the last hotfix (at least when I noticed it), the Tempest wing is failing at way too high a rate. Twice today on combat box I snapped the left wing off pulling a split-S at idle throttle, and this is now about the 6th time overall. Both times I was undamaged by enemy fire and it was my first high-g maneuver of the sortie. I was grey but staying short of g-loc in the pullout, so somewhere 5g's or below. That wing is rated for 12g. I don't know what you changed, but the wing spar is now far too weak.

 

You can pull 12G, the pilot won't black out immediatly. There is a few seconds delay. 

My bet is high speed, "nervous" pull out and so, reaching very high Gs due to the hyper elevator authority. Before the pilot has time to black out.

Can't tell as we can't see your manouver. 

Edited April 22, 2020 by JG300_Faucon

[CountZero]

23 hours ago, QB.Shallot said:

^ Providing a TacView Track would help shed a lot of light on the situation. It would allow you to get an exact read on the G-Load, and if it is bugged, provide hard proof to the devs that there's an error they need to fix. 

They (devs) dont belive TacView data so only way to know what G is max is when they add G meter.

 

Also i just check tempest files we can see in game and see that max G is 9 there but dont know if thats only limit for AI like other stuff we can see with extractor, so until they add G force showing in game well just have to trust that all is perfectly fine and no spars, bars or bolts are missing from Tempest wings ?

Spoiler

 

From ...luascripts\worldobjects\planes\tempestmkvs2.txt

 

///// Подсказки в техночате

min_CAS=160
max_CAS=865

DangerAoA = 14.0                            // Максимально-допустимый безопасный угол атаки
CriticalAoA = 18.0                            // Критический угол атаки
Maxny = 9.0                                    // Предельно-допустимая перегрузка
DangerV = 870.0                                // Максимальная безопасная приборная скорость
MaxGearV = 345.0                            // Максимально-допустимая приборная скорость с выпущенными шасси
MaxFlapV = 255.0                            // Максимально-допустимая приборная скорость с выпущенными закрылками
TakeOffV = 170.0                            // Рекомендованная взлётная скорость
ClimbV = 185.0                                // Рекомендованная приборная скорость набора высоты (мили в час!)
DescendV = 120.0                            // Рекомендованная скорость на глиссаде (мили в час!)
minV = 155.0                                // Минимально-безопасная приборная скорость
minVDeltaFlaps = 15.0                        // Уменьшение безопасной приборной скорости, обусловленное выпуском закрылок
IsTakeOffFlaps = false                        // Флаг наличия взлётного положения механизации
IsLeftPedal = true                            // Необходимая на разбеге педаль (true - левая, false - правая)
OilMaxTemperature = 130.0                    // Максимально-допустимая по РЛЭ температура масла
WaterMaxTemperature = 130.0                    // Максимально-допустимая по РЛЭ температура воды
//CylinderHeadMaxTemperature = 230.0        // Максимально-допустимая по РЛЭ температура головок цилиндров

 

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by CountZero

[E69_geramos109]

19 hours ago, JG300_Faucon said:

 

You can pull 12G, the pilot won't black out immediatly. There is a few seconds delay. 

My bet is high speed, "nervous" pull out and so, reaching very high Gs due to the hyper elevator authority. Before the pilot has time to black out.

Can't tell as we can't see your manouver. 

But I guess he would black out after the manouver 

Did you see the video? minute 41:46? Does not look like 12Gs manouver. I pulled negative and at the time I pulled positive the wing goes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2tuEkG3AWQ&lc=Ugx9RIgInaILJ2t5xpJ4AaABAg.97kSmlqCjzm97kUTeOfQkp 

Maybe you are right and the elevator authority can just pull cracy Gs on a small fraction of time but is weird that every sortie you need to be so cautious or you will lose the wing... I wonder how pilots were not having constant accidents like that if the plane behabed like that. 

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by E69_geramos109

[CountZero]

59 minutes ago, E69_geramos109 said:

But I guess he would black out after the manouver 

Did you see the video? minute 41:46? Does not look like 12Gs manouver. I pulled negative and at the time I pulled positive the wing goes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2tuEkG3AWQ&lc=Ugx9RIgInaILJ2t5xpJ4AaABAg.97kSmlqCjzm97kUTeOfQkp 

Maybe you are right and the elevator authority can just pull cracy Gs on a small fraction of time but is weird that every sortie you need to be so cautious or you will lose the wing... I wonder how pilots were not having constant accidents like that if the plane behabed like that. 

 

 

Thats the strangest thing to me also, how come pilots didnt say anything about losing wingmans to some strange wing braks, or there was warnings about not pulling sticks to hard abow some speeds and so on, it was fast interceptor so it was flying at high speeds. Cant wait for adition of G indicator to see whats realy happening, if all is ok with structural limits and parts of airplane then in game we have wrong elevator autority that real pilots could not have if we lose wings so easy, it had to be some warning or pilots remarks about tempests faling from skys like crazy when going fast if what we have is real deal.

[Blackhawk_FR]

4 hours ago, E69_geramos109 said:

But I guess he would black out after the manouver 

Did you see the video? minute 41:46? Does not look like 12Gs manouver. I pulled negative and at the time I pulled positive the wing goes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2tuEkG3AWQ&lc=Ugx9RIgInaILJ2t5xpJ4AaABAg.97kSmlqCjzm97kUTeOfQkp 

Maybe you are right and the elevator authority can just pull cracy Gs on a small fraction of time but is weird that every sortie you need to be so cautious or you will lose the wing... I wonder how pilots were not having constant accidents like that if the plane behabed like that. 

 

 

It seems you're pretty fast (600 kph, may be more?). With the pitch variation rate, I'm pretty sure you're around 10G. 

For the negative G before the hard pull, this has (theoricaly) nothing to do with the wing losse. 

 

This is not enough precise to compare but to give you an idea, take a look at the pitch variation rate when pulling out from figures (0:40 , 1:25 , 1:55 , 2:42 , etc...): 

Spoiler

 

 

Average speeds and G are 300-350kph and 6-8G. Quite the same pitch variation rate we can see in your video, but with half of your speed. 

 

Or check the VTM in redbull air race (10G at 200 knots), at 47sec:

Spoiler

 

 

[Blackhawk_FR]

On 4/20/2020 at 10:44 PM, 69th_Bazzer said:

 I was grey but staying short of g-loc in the pullout, so somewhere 5g's or below. That wing is rated for 12g.

 

 

So... Tempest's wing break over 10G. 

 

Any questions? Lol...

[CountZero]

8 hours ago, JG300_Faucon said:

 

 

So... Tempest's wing break over 10G. 

 

Any questions? Lol...

 

Why G meter stops at 10G when some airplanes are rated for 12G or 12.5G ?

 

So if wing brakes at 12G then its clear that something is wrog with elevator autority that we have in game at high speed, as for airplane that is ment to intercept airplanes and rockets at high speed there is no ww2 reports i know that say they were losing pilots by wings braking. Or there is no manual restriction on not to pull up at speeds we see wings easy braking in game, even if pilots died braking wings and could not report it because of that, there should be wingmans saying oh i lost my leader, his wing just snap like a twig when he pull up from V1 or 262 we chased down.

 

I tryed 262 and pull +10G indicated few times like on Tempest and wings on 262 didnt brake.

Edited May 20, 2020 by CountZero

[Blackhawk_FR]

29 minutes ago, CountZero said:

So if wing brakes at 12G then its clear that something is wrog with elevator autority that we have in game at high speed, as for airplane that is ment to intercept airplanes and rockets at high speed there is no ww2 reports i know that say they were losing pilots by wings braking. Or there is no manual restriction on not to pull up at speeds we see wings easy braking in game, even if pilots died braking wings and could not report it because of that, there should be wingmans saying oh i lost my leader, his wing just snap like a twig when he pull up from V1 or 262 we chased down.

 

Well, first, pilots are not stupid. They have theory and training on their aircrafts, and they will care about their limits. Not like some of us who just don't care and jerk their joystick without thinking about plane's limits.

Second, the body is an accelerometer itself. Believe me, you will clearly feel and being hurt by 10G. Of course this natural accelerometer can't be a precise one like "Oh, from my feelings I'm pulling 8,72G right now". But you will feel if you pull few, average, or a lot of G. With a lot of flying and training, I can say you can be quite precise at guessing how much you take (about 1G precision). In otherworld, pilot will feel his limit to G. Same problem as above, most of us just can't guess and realize how much G they take (a very good thing the accelerometer is available now). 

 

May be you are right about elevator authority, may be there is something wrong, may be it's too effective... I just don't know as I never read much about Tempest. 

But you just forgot that real pilots feel the Gs and they just can't pull more than 10G without noticing it, whatever if the elevator has a strong authority or not.

Edited May 20, 2020 by JG300_Faucon

[THERION]

21 minutes ago, JG300_Faucon said:

Not like some of us who just don't care and jerk their joystick without thinking about plane's limits.

 

Exactly - they didn't have several virtual lives. They had only one - a real one.

[CountZero]

8 minutes ago, -=-THERION said:

 

Exactly - they didn't have several virtual lives. They had only one - a real one.

But where is warning from RAF, if your doing around 360mph, do not sudenly pull your stick up, especialy when V1 your shoting at blows up, or when you pull up from dive droping 2x1000lbs or shooting rockets... how would pilots knew that Tempest is so sensitive at high speed compared to other airplanes, they cant just test it like we can and see what not to do, someone had to warn them.

Edited May 20, 2020 by CountZero

[JtD]

Because aircraft were calculated in detail, tested on g test benches in a lab and later in the air. Same procedures still apply today. Plus structural damage occurs before things literally fall apart (in the air). So both in theory as well as from empirical results they had a pretty good idea about structural strengths.

[unreasonable]

I remain convinced that this is not an elevator issue as such, but a side effect of the wing CL being too steep.  It is too steep because the CLmax is much too high, but the max AoA is in the normal range for a non slatted wing. Every extra degree of AoA is adding lift much faster for the Tempest wing than for any other aircraft.

 

 

[Lusekofte]

 

[SYN_Ricky]

I had that happen to me last night online, dove very fast on a Fw-190, he decelerated right before I started shooting so I had to pull up a bit sharply to avoid him after landing a couple of hits. My pilot didn't black out, then the plane acted strange and I noticed that my outer left wing was missing. I didn't hit EA, as confirmed by the 190's pilot, I apologized for ramming and he said I didn't...