Rear Gunner

[canuk2rogerthat]

Has anyone successfully shot down an enemy aircraft as a rear gunner?

[NO.20_W_M_Thomson]

not in real life no, but in the game yes.

[J2_Trupobaw]

Yes.

[BMA_Hellbender]

Gaming the game.

[J37_Spyboy]

I have, why do you ask?

 

[canuk2rogerthat]

3 hours ago, J5_Spyboy said:

I have, why do you ask?

 

Tried a few goes at it and its difficult,just curious.

 

[NO.20_W_M_Thomson]

1 hour ago, canuk2rogerthat said:

Tried a few goes at it and its difficult,just curious.

 

I think you can go off line and do a QM , set up aiming help and try that. will help you get the idea anyway. 

[J30maddog2]

you need to learn how to lead a target, short burst, at where the target will be after you fire. dont aim at the target, you will miss every time. as you bullets will fall behind where the target was. ask J 30 MIEN, THATS ALL HE DOES.  permeate gunner, but the gunners in all german planes have limited gunner range. better off flying with AI gunners, and order to fire at short range. flying circus screwed all the german gunners, they didnt take into effect gunners knelt  down to aim higher, and leaned over the fuselage to aim lower at incoming targets.  

[No.23_Triggers]

5 hours ago, J30maddog2 said:

 ask J 30 MIEN, THATS ALL HE DOES.

The terror of RoF. Is he in FC yet? 

[J5_Gamecock]

Unless it has been changed, Gunners get no credit or points for kills in FC.

[NO.20_W_M_Thomson]

Tell who's deadly sitting in your back seat is #20_Mcgoun, him and his VR will take you out in a second. We'd love to take on the J30's and see who the top 2 seaters are with real gunners.

[WWBiker_]

2 hours ago, J5_Gamecock said:

Unless it has been changed, Gunners get no credit or points for kills in FC.

That's odd they count your death back there but not your kills that's phooey

 

[J30_von_Hammer]

well, J30 Mein flies full time as a gunner, and RoF was more enjoyable for him. They neutered the rear gunner so badly in FC, he's not been having so much fun. It takes more than a good gunner, it takes a good team of pilot and gunner, and we practiced a lot in the RoF days on communication, and the gunner learning the pilot's moves and calls, and the pilot learning the gunner's needs and calls. it's a shame the game went so bias against the Hun gunner, apparently just because of Mein. He puts out a lot of ammo just to get hits, in RoF or FC, and pilot ability to position him is 50% of the skill required to get good at gunning- it's a team effort. Keep in mind also, in RoF, nobody running servers hardly used the turbulence and winds were typically light- combine that with guys flying smoothly, and it makes a gunner's job easier. It also makes the Spad, Se5a, etc easier to aim also. Just watch some of those films and note when they aim with a scope, it's dead on, smooth, no head bobbing, so turbulence bouncing, and a nice smooth shot doing lot of damage. The gunner does not get anywhere near that opportunity in either game.

To compare in FC:

 

- Lewis can flex up like 85 degrees and down like 70+ degrees:  Parabellum might go 20 degree up or down. Unrealistic- look at photos of Parabellums and see the amount of up and down.

This is really bad as since late RoF, the Spad jockey's have nearly perfected attacks from directly above, out of elevation range, and now that range has opened up for them, so the Halberstadt is really defenseless to a diving attack . Now they don't even need to get hardly over the Halb.  And it gets worse, as when caught, we usually get caught by 6 Spads, and chances are pretty slim to do any damage. If we flew Allied all the time, would they have neutered the Lewis like this? Gee whiz, if a guy wants to play a game as a gunner only, at least give him a chance to do well for himself- he doesn't even get any credit in scoring programs, so you know he only does it for pure enjoyment of the game. The Ai gunner can actually do far better at sighting enemy afar, and shooting.

 

-Lewis gun sights are high above the barrel, so when fired, the gunner can still see the target: Parabellum, the sights are low, and even though the real gun has a suppressor, and I have fired a real Spandau to speak for it first hand, the muzzle flash in the game is a solid obstruction, and when firing, the gunner cannot see what he is shooting at. Twin guns are worse to use than  the single too. I would actually prefer a decent single gun, that can elevate and not block my view when shooting, which is also more realistic for hun planes. I can't find any photos with twins.  Also, unlike RoF, the floating gunsight aide is not present- that is ok, but, again, reduces ability.

 

- For both rear guns, this thing about zooming in causing a restriction of rotation is very bad for having a gunner scan and warn of enemy planes incoming, restricting his ability to do well in the game, and helping survival. That is a big part of his job, and it got clipped. In IL2, the ME110 gunner is a pure loser for this.

 

It's like some want a glorified wack-a-mole game, where they want to come up at point blank, nail the two seater without any threat of damage, and run off to find another. Not the best for finding die hard customers that will stick with the game. Nobody likes to fly 30 min to an hour, and get killed in 3 seconds in a brief 'combat'- more like assassination. Yes, there were gunners that were aces in the real war. And sitting point blank on a two seater's tail should bring forth some serious damage.

 

Come on, two seaters were dangerous in real life and should be in game. We got shot down plenty of times in Rof with the better gun characteristics. And, a guy like Mein enjoyed the game- which is more the point, is it not? Two seater survival, is primarily the pilot's job. Richthofen, Immelmann, Lufbery, etc all had run ins with two seaters, and keep in mind, Richthofen was always flying Dicta Boelke, with 5 or more other guys, which gives more targets than a gunner can track, similar to what we see the 3rd pursuit doing now. Rickenbacker stated in his book they were told to avoid them altogether.

Right now, the rear MG is not very valuable in the Halberstadt, and the Halberstadt is not very valuable all around- unless he sneaks in and is not caught- usually, it's a one way trip. Anyone thinks it's easy kills as a gunner needs to spend an entire month flying only the rear seat, especially with pilots you are not close with. Either Rof or FC. Why is an experienced gunner frowned on, while an experienced pilot is ok? The whole game is skewed because nobody actually dies, and experience is possible. Experienced Pilots pound newbies into the dirt so hard they quit playing the game far more than experienced gunners do, of which there are very few. It's sad that now, nobody wants a live gunner, and nobody wants to be a gunner- at least not in a Halberstadt.

 

it would also be nice if new people could be a gunner in an AI piloted plane, to gain experience. I flew off the map once in a combat, and an AI actually took over my controls while fighting an Se5a. I could not regain control, even after we drifted back onto the map. However, I could gun in the back seat. So, we fought the Se5a with an AI pilot and live gunner for like 5 minutes or more. So, I feel it should be possible to do.

 

When the wings weren't fixed, Mein even recorded one flight, and per scoring system, we took a .01 hit only, and the wings came off. So, the Halberstadts were severely disadvantaged even more than just with guns, but, we soldiered on, and flew what we were given, and did our best to compensate.  I think the new patch might be better, but, it brings up another point about guns. In my test today, the balloon guns still take a wing off in one short burst. Having them at all is very unrealistic. Reading history, they were rare, and Willie Coppins talked about getting one, and he'd go out with only 50 rounds of ammo, because that was all they could get, with most solid, and one or two incendiary. All meant to do it's namesake- kill balloons. As a choice in game, it should be a single gun, with 50 rounds, similar to real, and really meant to go get a balloon, like the rockets, not be a standard combat weapon on every Spad flying. I recommend all servers turn off that selection.

 

The Halberstadt pilot got restricted as well, and now he cannot see over his wing as in RoF, and not much below it either.

 

And, lastly, the rate of fire got boosted in Rof, and carried into FC. Initially, it was realistic in RoF around 400 rounds per minute. Now, we're dealing with around 800 or more rounds per minute. For this game to be more fun, a dogfight needs to last a bit longer than 3 seconds. And if the game reverted to realistic, and set the Vickers, Spandau, and Parabellum to 400 rpm, I think we'd have some wonderful fun dogfights. The Lewis was not sync'd and was typically set around 600 to 700 rpm, but 98 round drums help make up for that. I'm ok with realistic.

 

I also note in the patch before this recent one, the Becker could take out a balloon with 3 or 4 rounds, I assume 2 HE rounds, as supposedly it's mixed AP an HE. Now, I can put a full clip and a half into a balloon before it might go down. Ok, whatever, hamper the hun planes again. I appear to not be able to take out tanks with it now either. Usually, 3 or 4  rounds of AP would take out a MK IV in RoF, less for the FT 17. Kind of what it was for I'd think- as Halbs are ground attack planes. With the restricted down angle of the rear guns, we can't even do that anymore with MG nor Becker. Why even give the huns a Halberstadt at all if the allies don't like facing two seaters? Maybe servers should just set up Bristols on both sides and call it even.

Gee whiz, now, we have even seen pilots, who loved to fly Hun, actually quit their squads and join the Allies, simply because they were tired of dying because of their handicapped planes, and not because of their skill. I know we have some that simply got tired of the aircraft two seater handicap and are sitting out, not playing at all-= waiting for an improvement.

 

Anyway, my observations and input on rear gunners and Halberstadts- the only two seater that actually passed acceptance in Aldershof testing as a fighter plane. Maybe one day the Allies will have a professional gunner too, and they can handicap the Bristol to compensate. I'd rather see gunner restrictions lifted all around.

 

 

 

[No.23_Gaylion]

We actually dont like attacking two seaters because we've been too often sniped in the eyeball by AI gunners. 

 

Your post is dead on for the most part. 

 

We aren't flying around with strictly balloon guns before either. Only until recently, when they came out with this ridiculously armored D7, have I swapped to balloon guns. This is literally the first time I've ever done that. In RoF I hated them, and up until this new DM there was no difference between them and vickers. 

 

I feel for you guys and they should listen to your complaints. 

 

If I were you guys, I'd get more planes in the air at the same time with nothing but AI gunners.

[NO.20_W_M_Thomson]

24 minutes ago, US93_Talbot said:

If I were you guys, I'd get more planes in the air at the same time with nothing but AI gunners.

If I was him I'd get all the D7's and DR1's escorting me. Nothing anyone can do to stop them. NOTHING. All they have to do is shield them.

[BMA_Hellbender]

On 5/23/2020 at 7:19 AM, J30_von_Hammer said:

Anyway, my observations and input on rear gunners and Halberstadts- the only two seater that actually passed acceptance in Aldershof testing as a fighter plane.

 

The Halberstadt was actually rejected for service as an escort fighter.

 

 

 

 

Quote

- Lewis can flex up like 85 degrees and down like 70+ degrees:  Parabellum might go 20 degree up or down. Unrealistic- look at photos of Parabellums and see the amount of up and down.

 

No, the Parabellum is only angled fully upwards in the stowed away position. It could angle upwards further if the gunner kneeled down, or further downwards if he stood on top of the fuel tank, which was considered risky. In fact, it was considered to give the rear gunner a proper Scarff ring copy, but they never did.

 

 

 

Quote

If we flew Allied all the time, would they have neutered the Lewis like this? Gee whiz, if a guy wants to play a game as a gunner only, at least give him a chance to do well for himself- he doesn't even get any credit in scoring programs, so you know he only does it for pure enjoyment of the game.

 

Maybe one day the Allies will have a professional gunner too, and they can handicap the Bristol to compensate. I'd rather see gunner restrictions lifted all around.

 

Well, Captain Darling never got paid, so I guess he's not a professional gunner. How much does Mein make an hour?

 

The thought that the devs supposedly nerfed the sim because of any one player is a bit contrived.

 

 

 

Quote

This is really bad as since late RoF, the Spad jockey's have nearly perfected attacks from directly above, out of elevation range, and now that range has opened up for them, so the Halberstadt is really defenseless to a diving attack . Now they don't even need to get hardly over the Halb.  And it gets worse, as when caught, we usually get caught by 6 Spads, and chances are pretty slim to do any damage.

 

The truth is: you should really consider flying with an AI gunner. It's almost impossible to properly balance the game around human gunners. It's a niche feature which is not even correctly supported in terms of scoring. Plus, it takes a pilot slot away. Once you fly two Halberstadts together and double your amount of guns, your odds of survival go up drastically.

 

Even so, 2 Halberstadts are still a liability, it gets really dangerous for enemy scouts as of 4+ machines, as they can properly cover each other's vertical approach angles. You're still going to have a rough time if you get attacked by 6 SPADs, but that's when you make sure you also bring a sizeable scout bait escort with you. You can always call on J5 if you're on Flugpark. Those nasty SPADs will certainly have to think twice about attacking you and not losing their wings heads.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, US93_Talbot said:

If I were you guys, I'd get more planes in the air at the same time with nothing but AI gunners.

 

You mean like a... Schlasta? Maybe... number 27b?

 

Honestly the idea never really took off (neither does the Halberstadt), even within J5, I think mostly because getting attacked by scouts was an almost automatic death sentence. With the new DM and the increased chance of taking out a scout more rapidly, it might be worth giving it a shot again, even if the Halberstadt wings have become equally fragile.

 

All we need are guns. Lots of guns.

Edited May 24, 2020 by J5_Hellbender

[76SQN-FatherTed]

3 hours ago, J5_Hellbender said:

The thought that the devs supposedly nerfed the sim because of any one player is a bit contrived.

 

 

Off topic, but I think that's actually a pretty widely-held belief.  Many people think "their" plane or "their" side has been nerfed by any given update.  Or that server-side settings favour one side or the other.