AI crew gunner identifies and shoots at targets in multiplayer

[stupor-mundi]

Some discussion on this has already happened in the thread "On Free mode, IA crew is not working" , but I felt, since that thread is actually about a perceived failure of this new 'feature' to work, a new thread should be started to discuss the desirability of the 'feature' as a whole.

Clearly this is a nice feature to have offline. I want this thread to be a discussion of it, on online multiplayer servers.

Today I've downloaded the most recent hotfix and re-tested this on Action Tank and Dogfight, it's still the case.

 

I see 2 problems with this feature on multiplayer. I find each one of them a game killer, on its own. Both together more so.

 

* Seeing: As we know, AI sees through forests, vegetation in general. Thus the AI crew now has this ability. I.e. even without the auto-shooting aspect, the new feature kills the tactical aspects of gameplay. Basically this is like playing with icons, gps. Even if the AI were changed to not see through vegetation, realistically, on a tactical level, a player's inability to see you has to do with the limits of their situational awareness. I.e. in terms of line-of-sight, you might be 'visible', but effectively, your opponent doesn't see you because only a tiny part of your tank pokes out, and is hard to discern from the surrounding stuff.

 

* Shooting: obviously, gunnery is a big part of the gameplay. Why would someone want to try to compete with AI on this skill, where AI can easily be perfect, every time.

 

Due to the problems with the new 'feature', EFront have currently removed all the 'new' tanks from their missions, in case people were wondering. (the old tanks didn't receive the feature)

 

To the 2 general problems with the feature, I have to add an additional unfairness: of the 'new' tanks, the best-all-round red tank is the T34 (the 122 has its uses, but also crass limitations):

the feature works when you're in a non-gunner position. In the T34, the gunner is the commander. I.e. in the blue turreted tanks, you can use the feature while nicely sitting in the commander position, poking the head out of the hatch. In the T34, you have to be driver. Massive disadvantage. Among the red turreted tanks, you'd have to use the KV to get this experience, which is otherwise very unattractive. Or the Sherman.

 

Devs, why are you killing the game (in multiplayer)?

 

 

Edited April 18, 2020 by stupor-mundi

[stupor-mundi]

Just now, since it was quite busy on Finnish, I thought I'd do a round, using the new feature.

I switched my radio to enemy channel, and sure enough, was able to tell that an opposing tank (player) was using the feature.

I gave the appropriate commands and switched to driver position, since I was in a T34.

I came under fire from the enemy tank which was completely invisible due to lots of forest (this was in the caucasus mountains, in deep forest), drove on to a lower position and crawled forward in the direction where the enemy tank must be. Sure enough, after a few seconds, my gunner started firing at the enemy tank, which wasn't visible at all, due to large amounts of trees.

After my gunner fired for half a minute without effect at what was probably a tiger, the tiger's AI gunner acquired and shot, blowing me up straight away.

This is the LAMEST thing ever. Trying to play tanks like that is massive waste of time. Is it so hard to get this???

 

 

Edited April 18, 2020 by stupor-mundi

[69th_chuter]

Yeah, there's a handful of guys on the Finnish server that trundle along through the trees blasting everything at first the Base and then the Artillery and with most of the other blue players taking out the ships you have a six hour map turning in as little as an hour.  They could probably easily accomplish these great feats of skill with a panzer iv but they always use the Tigers so even if you AI them back you're struggling to get in a lucky shot (the AI gunners aren't the greatest) before the Tiger (or Panther) gunner lands one.

 

So, anyway, I agree with Stup -  it's a multiplayer game killer.

 

The way you do it is you occupy commander's position (or maybe anything but gunner) hit the Tilde key, hit F1 for Assign Targets and then hit F2 for Attack Ground Targets at Will.  Drive until the crew spots a target then stop and let them shoot.  They will fire when within effective range and as long as something "solid" isn't effectively blocking the shot.  Tree foliage, no matter how visually impenetrable it might seem to you, isn't considered "solid".  The ONLY good thing about it is they aren't ace gunners so they do miss some, but it hardly matters when the shots are coming from deep in a forest at you.

[RIVALDO]

Its been brought up to attention on the russian forum as well.No changes so far.The devs mentioned something about making this feature being able to beswitched off by server hosts or lowering the level of the AI to the lowest possible (not an option AT ALL!!!).

 

Отключить ИИ танка в онлайне = вырубить роль командира танка. 

 

Такое если и делать, то только опцией сервера. 

 

Опять же вопрос. А со стрелками самолетов как при этом поступать? 

 

Пока вопросов больше, чем ответов. 

 

И да, возможно решением было бы игроковому наводчику самый низкий ИИ в онлайне давать.

[Black_Bodkin]

Ahhhh, all is explained now ☹️

 

Three of us jumped into tanks for the first time yesterday.  Took one tank with driver, gunner, commander slots filled by players. Thought having humans in each important slot would have to be more effective than one person jumping from slot to slot.  We were also on the Finnish server.  Came under fire from the front in dense forest, although none of us could see anything until the range had reduced considerably and we’d taken several hits.  If only we’d got out and let the AI do its thing....  If I want to be continually killed by things I have no hope of seeing I can simply go back to WT with its ULQ abusers.

 

These features - especially the all-seeing thing* - turn Tank Crew into another FPS where a single person is more effective than any RL crew could ever be thanks to AI + hive mind.  Why risk a human in the gunner slot when the all-knowing AI will always be better (at spotting)?

 

* Seeing through cover is a big gameplay killer; I can see an argument for a suitably ‘average’ AI gunner being able to engage targets pointed out by the commander.  Letting AI perform tasks at a basic level is probably a necessary concession if tanks are to be at all viable with less than a full human crew.  However, X-ray vision is hardly a basic task.

[Blutaar]

37 minutes ago, Black_Bodkin said:

Three of us jumped into tanks for the first time yesterday.

 

Next time better take 3 tanks with AI instead of just one with 3 guys.

 

Joking aside, it seems like the AI will never be enjoyable in this game, in the air or on the ground. I dont have Tankcrew and it seems i will never have it. I knew from the beginning that it will be aweful with all seeing hive minded AI. The plane AI still is useless and cant get hits on maneuvering targets, its the exception not the rule that they hit something. Also they always know where you are and never can be surprised. Yeah it happens sometimes that they fly straight but that is bug in my opinion. The AI cant even jump out of heavily damaged planes before they slowly fly into the ground most of the time or RTB if possible.

 

The AI is a mess and needs a serious overhaul, not just some tweaking of decision making processes. Im sick of missions where i am the one with almost all air kills on my side even when taking 7 friendly AIs with me on a mission. Not only that, also the fact that i loose my Aces in the career against novice AI in slower but better turning planes. Its frustrating and i can see the pain with tankcrew. Seems like we are in the same boat i guess.  

[=AD=uumembwa]

With "Low" level AI gunner sometime misses (1 of 3 shots average), but still can see through forest and buildings - it is not solution.

[MurderOne]

I'll admit, I'm guilty of assuming the commander position and letting the AI do the work.  I don't think there's a quick and easy solution to the problem.  Is there a way to have the commander call targets?  Assuming we won't get away from the AI seeing through everything, if I'm running the guns and the commander is calling targets, I may not be able to get a visual and be forced to maneuver the tank to try to get a shot.  Just a thought.  In the end, that x-ray vision is the biggest problem.  JMHO.

[352ndOscar]

I’m all for the commanders menu - especially from a single human person in the tank point of view.  I don’t see that as the problem.  What IS the problem is the AI’s vision.  “If you can’t see through it - you cant shoot through it.”, be that a forest, a building, a wall, the ground, etc.  if there is something - anything - between the end of the gun barrel and the actual target, then don’t allow the shot.  Seems pretty simple to me.  Let’s fix that first and see where we go from there.

[=AD=uumembwa]

2 minutes ago, 352ndOscar said:

I’m all for the commanders menu - especially from a single human person in the tank point of view.  I don’t see that as the problem.  What IS the problem is the AI’s vision.  “If you can’t see through it - you cant shoot through it.”, be that a forest, a building, a wall, the ground, etc.  if there is something - anything - between the end of the gun barrel and the actual target, then don’t allow the shot.  Seems pretty simple to me.  Let’s fix that first and see where we go from there.

Yes, i agree with it. But AI gunners much better than human gunners, even with "Low" level. Make AI smart(er) as human - possible. Make AI stupid like human - never

We must understand - devs work with AI, they do best they can, but it is work for years honestly. Players want solution now, in the next update, as far as possible. 

[352ndOscar]

7 minutes ago, NHK295M said:

Yes, i agree with it. But AI gunners much better than human gunners, even with "Low" level. Make AI smart(er) as human - possible. Make AI stupid like human - never

We must understand - devs work with AI, they do best they can, but it is work for years honestly. Players want solution now, in the next update, as far as possible. 

No, AI gunners are and should be no different than Human gunners.  IF you - human - gunner can’t see through something, then you can’t shoot.  Same should go for the AI gunner.  
 

Look, every game object has a collision setting.  We know this all too well as we have all run into things driving around - even things that “aren’t there”.  Use that same game mechanic to stop the gun rounds.  What happens when you shoot at a building?  Nothing.  So why is that different than a forest?  What happens when you shoot the ground?  Nothing - well maybe a ricochet and some dirt blowup.  Blowup the round when it hits the object collision model - be that a house, a building, a tree, a forest, the ground, etc, etc.  If I bounce off a building, then bounce the gun round off the building, tree, forest, ground.  Seems pretty straight forward to me.  
 

At least it’s a starting point.  We can build from there.

[=AD=uumembwa]

8 minutes ago, 352ndOscar said:

No, AI gunners are and should be no different than Human gunners.  IF you - human - gunner can’t see through something, then you can’t shoot.  Same should go for the AI gunner.  

But they don't. They much better than any human player.

Then i see target - i need time to designate it, time to detect range, aim and fire. AI gunner have 0 time to do it - it is fire and can one-shot moving target!

Better move AI to server options, until devs teach AI make mistakes like human do. 

Edited April 19, 2020 by NHK295M

[352ndOscar]

I think we are talking apples and oranges here.....

 

You’re talking about programming the AI to act like a human.

 

Am talking about stopping the AI from shooting at a target (me) from 4K deep inside a forest because the mission editor thought it would be funny (yes, it’s out there) or from a forested ridgeline 2k away through another forest to my position on a road with no clear line of sight.

Edited April 19, 2020 by 352ndOscar

[=AD=uumembwa]

38 minutes ago, 352ndOscar said:

Am talking about stopping the AI from shooting at a target (me) from 4K deep inside a forest because the mission editor thought it would be funny (yes, it’s out there) or from a forested ridgeline 2k away through another forest to my position on a road with no clear line of sight.

This is the same thing. You be happy die then you see that you killed by AI that in 1 second detect that range to you and easy kill you then you think about "what distance to that tank 750 or 800 meters?" AI with low level fire better than any human. And it can miss only one time. AI with level Ace - give you 0 chance to win.

[stupor-mundi]

4 hours ago, 352ndOscar said:

I’m all for the commanders menu - especially from a single human person in the tank point of view.  I don’t see that as the problem.  What IS the problem is the AI’s vision.  “If you can’t see through it - you cant shoot through it.”, be that a forest, a building, a wall, the ground, etc.  if there is something - anything - between the end of the gun barrel and the actual target, then don’t allow the shot.  Seems pretty simple to me.  Let’s fix that first and see where we go from there.

 

This is a point where I have to disagree, at least in the context of servers without icons, gps.

 

Even if we assume that they'd fix the AI's vision to the point where line-of-sight is necessary, taking into account vegetation.

 

Countless times I've outflanked people who didn't see me even though they could have, but their attention was focussed elsewhere. Countless times I've sat in a forest, observing the opponent, while they didn't see me, although line-of-sight was given. But I blended in among the bushes and trees.

 

But aside from the issue of the limitations of human situational awareness (which is the big one really), you have to consider that, even through a forest, strict line of sight is often given, but wouldn't be understood as line of sight by humans. let's say there's a tank at your 10 oclock, with a small forest in between. You slowly drive forward. Every fraction of a second, the occlusion situation changes, i.e. off-and-on, the AI gunner will be able to acquire. Thus, even if strict line-of-sight were enforced for the AIs, they would still have a beyond-human ability to see the tank on the other side of the forest.

 

That's what makes it worthwhile, online gaming against other humans. And that's why I spend zero time on offline missions, because I consider it a waste of time, to pitch myself against AIs that just 'know' where I am, no matter how stealthy I try to be. I simply don't want  my opponent to make use of such a magical device, which I myself don't wish to use, but would then be forced to use, to even the odds.

 

What happens as a result is that all tankers, the expert as well as the clueless, attain the same magical powers. That's what I meant by, it kills the game.

 

[Black_Bodkin]

20 hours ago, Blutaar said:

Next time better take 3 tanks with AI instead of just one with 3 guys.

Well, I can now see that would clearly be the most effective option!  But:

 

13 hours ago, stupor-mundi said:

What happens as a result is that all tankers, the expert as well as the clueless, attain the same magical powers. That's what I meant by, it kills the game.

Yes, just set up the AI and then it’s just an exercise in pressing ‘W’ and that’s not what the 3 of us were looking for, so a next time looks unlikely.  It’s hardly a ‘sim’.

 

Sad thing is, it was looking like an excellent, immersive MP game which really did simulate aspects of operating WW2 armoured vehicles. Bad enough that the AI can see through trees, but they can also see through the armour surrounding them regardless of vision ports, so the ability is not believable on any level. It’s a case of instant awareness.

 

For now we can only hope for an improvement, which TBH, I would expect sometime, given this is not a finished product.  There could be an option for servers to remove this feature; AI gunners could be restricted to targets specifically assigned by the commander; or the AI might even replicate what a human in that position could do, although this seems the least likely solution.

[69th_chuter]

Yeah, I think I'm done with the game.  What compounds this problem is that AP and APCR do no damage internally unless the hit something directly*, and even that is questionable.  So one side has the best armor, gun and ammo and the other has to get deep inside the kill zone to be able to use their gun.  The situation on the Finnish server has pushed me more and more to try to help the Red side against one or two Tigers who are threatening to shut the Red Tank Spawns down completely in the first hour, which can be done, to an extent, with the right terrain, numerical superiority and some luck. The only fair solution, then, is for both sides to have the same equipment.  I like a fair fight so I've basically given up on using the Tiger (my favorite WW2 tank) because, even without the AI, it feels like cheating.  The Panzer IV is a much better competitor with the available Russian options, I think, than the Tiger so that's basically what I've settled on (except that I can't bring myself to helping a Tiger or two crush the Red side so I go Red).  The day the Tiger came out I questioned the rationale for doing so.  From a gaming perspective it was an insane decision but from a marketing perspective it's no date created sales which, frankly, is the bottom line.

 

Anyway, I really wish the game could have stayed focused on airplanes with the expanded ground game limited to AAA, both fixed and mobile.

 

*The solid shot penetration model, I believe, simply damages internal components and/or crewmen that the shot strikes while moving through the vehicle, without taking spawling into consideration not to mention most of the material that originally filled the volume of the newly created hole has to go somewhere.  And then there's the inexplicable:  I've been 3 meters behind a T34 Early in a Panzer III with only 2 rounds of APCR.  First shot square in the back of the turret which should have struck the gun breach.  As the turret turned to the left I put the last shot in the left side of the turret towards the front aiming for the gunner and gun breach again.  The turret finished rotating and I was shot dead.  I am aware of armor penetration shot deflection, by the way.  Also, APCR hits into nearly full fuel tanks would rupture those fuel tanks filling the vehicle with a fuel fog and liquid fuel making further vehicle operation problematic as a) the crew have to breath and b) optics would eventually be made difficult to use. 

 

 

[[CPT]Pike*HarryM]

I change radio frequency to enemy, if he is using his AI gunner it will tell you. That can act as a warning. I just typically leave server if that is happening, so it is a stupid thing to have available. 

[stupor-mundi]

Some more days have passed. A couple of hotfixes have happened after the release, fixing various things. By now it doesn't look as if the devs intend to do anything about this crippling feature.

It's a wonder to me, when IL-2, for flying, positions itself as the sim that, apart from 'easy mode' (or 'normal'), by default doesn't have the various aids that are well known in the genre, icons, radar, aiming aids, et cetera. But for tanking, it's now somehow all different. What gives?

It could help if there was a statement of the devs, where they want to go with this. It could make it easier for me to say goodbye to the tanking on this sim now, instead of keeping up the hope that they might throw the rudder around and steer it back into worthwhile time wasting territory.

[inexus]

1 hour ago, stupor-mundi said:

It could help if there was a statement of the devs, where they want to go with this. It could make it easier for me to say goodbye to the tanking on this sim now, instead of keeping up the hope that they might throw the rudder around and steer it back into worthwhile time wasting territory.

 

Completely agree! I don't see people asking the devs to fix it tomorrow but at least if there was any update as to 'we are looking at it' or 'our next changes will focus on a, b, c' then that will help simply to know what is going on. 

 

Apart from announcing they are building the new couple of tanks, it feels like the devs have gone completely silent about what is going on with TC.

 

I reported the issue here to the devs and added a link to this thread now:

 

 

Edited April 27, 2020 by inexus
new addition

[SCG_Neun]

The only way to play TC with any semblance of real is in a closed server, with a mission built specifically reducing LOS issues and with trusted players, on comms and working together with a set of mission objectives with a fixed mission start time and ending time.   We also have our Air Wing working with us, so this uses all the strengths for the game.  I agree with your assessment overall.  Without a lot of work, it's tough to get the best out of this game and I personally don't like game the game, gamers....

[LLv34_Temuri]

As a server admin, I’d like to have an option to disable the AI gunner automatic target acquiring and shooting. The player needs to point where to shoot, either as the gunner or as the tank commander.

[=WBG=ValidoL]

Напишу на родном языке, переведете, это не сложно. Эта проблема убивает не только игру PvP, но и возможности создания миссий в которых Ai играет одну из важных, зрелищных сценариев на серверах...Как много веселых, захватывающих, необычных моментов сценария теряю игроки.. Мне грустно и обидно за  не реализацию возможностей.

 

I'll write in my native language, translate it, it's not difficult. This problem kills not only the PvP game, but also the ability to create missions in which Ai plays one of the important, spectacular scenarios on the servers ... How many fun, exciting, unusual moments script players lose ... I feel sad and hurt for not realizing the opportunities.

[Goosevich]

Yeah I did play around Finnish server with M4a2, the abiility to command AI gunner to target and engage the enemy is a chore. It's either not possible to designate the target or the AI just ignores it (most of the time). While giving the ai "fire at will" ruins the expirience completly.

Sad state of affairs