Eldur Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 4th picture down looks like the 190 is flying nose down in level flight. This actually is how it was constructed for getting a better forward view. Also look at the wings, they have some upward angle in relation to the fuselage. Basically, it's good for high speed, low alt strafing runs, it should be hard to crash into the ground For the opposite, try to do this with an F-15C in DCS 1.2.8 (guns shoot a tad upward, bad for strafing runs) I hope there's no problem posting original photos without removing the swastika - otherwise moderators shall feel free to remove the image from my post. I hope they model that bar in the cockpit properly. I can hide my LaGG behind it. 6DOF solves all problems... and yes, BoS does not model refraction of the glass, which is visible in the other cockpits already.
Uriah Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 The radial engine on these planes, did the whole engine and prop rotate around the center shaft?
Jaws2002 Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 The radial engine on these planes, did the whole engine and prop rotate around the center shaft? The only reason they made the engine rotate around with the prop, back during ww1, was because they couldn't cool the engines with those slow ww1 speeds. As the demand for more power increased and engines started producing serious power, the rotary engine was doomed, because of excessive torque. In the same time with better aerodynamics and more power, more speed and better copling, they could make the new radials with the engine fixed to the plane.
Finkeren Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 The only reason they made the engine rotate around with the prop, back during ww1, was because they couldn't cool the engines with those slow ww1 speeds. Well, actually the main reason for making rotary engines back in the day was because they ran more smoothly. Basically the engine block acted as a flywheel and would keep the engine turning, even if a cylinder occationally failed to ignite. They were also generally lighter than early inline engines, maing them ideal for use in aircraft. By the end of WW1 however, the limitations of the rotaries became rather glaring: They used a lot of fuel and enormous amounts of lubricant to keep that heavy engine turning, and they were essentially capped at less that 1500rpm, severely limiting the amount of power, they could deliver. By the 1930, all radial engine designes turned the prop only with the engine block securely fastened to the airframe (what we usually call "radials"). They were capable of delivering high power relative to their weight and were simple and easy to manufacture and operate, but they were not particularly easy to fit into an aerodynamic airframe and were rather hard to cool effectively. The Fw190 design solved both issues rather elegantly, and the result is a very fast aircraft that's rather heavy for its size but also able to carry a lot more armament into battle than its V-engined counterparts. It's the same thing as the P-47 on a smaller scale, except the Fw190 was more maneuverable.
Sternjaeger Posted April 29, 2014 Author Posted April 29, 2014 (edited) The radial engine on these planes, did the whole engine and prop rotate around the center shaft? In answer to your question, Uriah, no, the engine design you are referring to, called "rotary", was abandoned soon after WW1, as the increased demands in terms of horsepower meant the use of different engine designs. The FW190 had a sophisticated BMW radial engine, which had an electro-mechanical apparatus that would automatically adjust mixture and pitch according to the flight attitude, altitude and speed, considerably reducing the pilot's workload. There was one peculiarity (which was in fact common to most mid/late war German radial engines), a fan that was installed between the propeller and the engine, which was meant to ram air inside the very snug cowling, considerably helping with the cooling of the engine itself. If memory serves the fan had its own gearing and would spin at a different speed than the propeller. I am not 100% sure, but I seem to remember that the speed of the fan was also regulated by the kommandgerät (the aforementioned apparatus). Edited April 29, 2014 by Sternjaeger
Finkeren Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 The Fw 190 was something of an technological wonder in its time. And to think they built almost 15,000 of such an advanced machine. Too bad its high-altitude performance wasn't up to speed.
Freycinet Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 The radial engine on these planes, did the whole engine and prop rotate around the center shaft? I heard from the developers in 777 Studios that they will actually model all radials in BOS as rotaries, because they have a lot of experience modelling rotaries from their work on Rise of Flight. I think it is an acceptable compromise, since we will get more planes modelled in a shorter time. We'll just have a bit more torque to deal with than they did historically, which shouldn't be a big deal. 2
Finkeren Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 I heard from the developers in 777 Studios that they will actually model all radials in BOS as rotaries, because they have a lot of experience modelling rotaries from their work on Rise of Flight. I think it is an acceptable compromise, since we will get more planes modelled in a shorter time. We'll just have a bit more torque to deal with than they did historically, which shouldn't be a big deal. I hope you're joking... 1
SvAF/F19_Klunk Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 (edited) It's a beast, and a good looking beast... or why not quote Günther Rall and his metaphor "The 109 was like a foil in the air, while the 190 was more like a sabre". Kurt Tank did a remarkable design, so many new and interesting solutions.. Edited April 29, 2014 by F19_Klunk
ImPeRaToR Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 Awesome pictures And I actually find the RLM 74 to be just fine if it is the same colour as on the 109F, always a bit situational on screenshots due to the lighting and reflections.
Feathered_IV Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 Great looking model. The skin reminds me of the really poor default ones that the original Il-2 series came with.
9./JG52Ziegler Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 Outstanding bird! Can't wait to hear that Beemer (read: Pratt & Whitney) rumble!
Bearcat Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 I hope they model that bar in the cockpit properly. I can hide my LaGG behind it. It only took 11 posts to reference the bar. Impressive. LOL.. riot throwback! That was hot and heavy when I got to IL2 in 02...
Tektolnes Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 It exploded recently again on the DCS forums and ran for about 30 pages. No doubt it'll resurface again.
Finkeren Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 I must've been living under a rock. What is it about that bar?
Finkeren Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 Oooooooh, yeah, now I get it. Just found the old threads discussing it. Yeah, that bar was pretty annoying.... *Lights fuse and runs like hell*
Sternjaeger Posted April 29, 2014 Author Posted April 29, 2014 ...obviously now you can move your head, so this would really be a non existent issue ;-) 1
sallee Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 It exploded recently again on the DCS forums and ran for about 30 pages. No doubt it'll resurface again. Ye Gods.... Anything but that! I remember reading some of the thread (perhaps the first 100 or so pages) and giving up on a proportion of humanity. Needless to say, I stayed out of it.
1CGS LukeFF Posted April 29, 2014 1CGS Posted April 29, 2014 Ye Gods.... Anything but that! I remember reading some of the thread (perhaps the first 100 or so pages) and giving up on a proportion of humanity. Needless to say, I stayed out of it. LOL! Yeah, those endless arguments on the Fw 190 bar really...umm...brought out the personality in some people.
Sternjaeger Posted April 29, 2014 Author Posted April 29, 2014 So... Just to add a bit of fuel to the fire... Did that argument ever see an end/solution?
Bassly Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 Maybe we could get one more screenshot of the bar itself?
DD_bongodriver Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 So... Just to add a bit of fuel to the fire... Did that argument ever see an end/solution? No it didn't, the physical obstruction exists but it's effect is inconsequential and why people argue about it is incomprehensible.
Streiff Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 (edited) I must've been living under a rock. What is it about that bar? Its the window frame in front of the pilot. More accurately, its the lower horizontal part of the frame that effectively obscured, iirc, the lower part of the gun sight. At least in the original Il2 Sturmovik game. Imo, no flight sim got it right yet. Maby being able to adjust default view up and down, like in BoS, will remedy that. As far as i can tell from looking at photos of different version of the FW cockpit, the "bar" is only visible from a certain angle (how high the pilot sits in the pilot seat). Sometimes the "bar" cant be seen at all....because the frame padding in front of the pilot is blocking it. Anyways, i think it will all be good in the end. The cockpit frame, gun sight and the window bar has to be aligned correctly in relation to the rest of the model at a specific angle. 0 view if you will. Modeling it correctly, i suspect, isn't as easy as it seems. Or im just overcomplicated things. Edited April 29, 2014 by Baron
sallee Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 Its the window frame in front of the pilot. More accurately, its the lower horizontal part of the frame that effectively obscured, iirc, the lower part of the gun sight. At least in the original Il2 Sturmovik game. Imo, no flight sim got it right yet. Maby being able to adjust default view up and down, like in BoS, will remedy that. As far as i can tell from looking at photos of different version of the FW cockpit, the "bar" is only visible from a certain angle (how high the pilot sits in the pilot seat). Sometimes the "bar" cant be seen at all....because the frame padding in front of the pilot is blocking it. Anyways, i think it will all be good in the end. The cockpit frame, gun sight and the window bar has to be aligned correctly in relation to the rest of the model at a specific angle. 0 view if you will. Modeling it correctly, i suspect, isn't as easy as it seems. Or im just overcomplicated things. You spoke about it...you do know there will be a hit out on you now..... It was like the big-endians and the little-endians in Gulliver's Travels.
SvAF/F16_Goblin Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 Hehe, I think we've discussed that enough
Streiff Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 Nooooooooooo, dam it. It will be all good, im sure of it.
DD_Arthur Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 Anyways, i think it will all be good in the end. The cockpit frame, gun sight and the window bar has to be aligned correctly in relation to the rest of the model at a specific angle. 0 view if you will. Modeling it correctly, i suspect, isn't as easy as it seems. Or im just overcomplicated things. No, that's spot on. The pilot of a 190 is basically reclining within the cockpit. The only workable solution is 6-DoF. Now when do we discuss swept back wings?
SvAF/F16_Goblin Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 (edited) When we get the 262 Edited April 29, 2014 by 332_Goblin
HeavyCavalrySgt Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 It's the same thing as the P-47 on a smaller scale, except the Fw190 was more maneuverable. I loved the mental picture I got of a P-47 or a Corsair powered by a similarly sized rotary. They would have interesting turning characteristics, and perhaps brief but exciting flights for the unwary noob.
HeavyCavalrySgt Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 So the complaint about the bar - was it not well stocked or stocked with the wrong selection?
sallee Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 So the complaint about the bar - was it not well stocked or stocked with the wrong selection By the way the chairs were flying, I don't think there was any stock left. 1
Finkeren Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 I loved the mental picture I got of a P-47 or a Corsair powered by a similarly sized rotary. They would have interesting turning characteristics, and perhaps brief but exciting flights for the unwary noob. The thing is, with rotaries essentially being unable to go higher than 1500rpm it's doubtfull if these planes would even take off.
ARM505 Posted April 29, 2014 Posted April 29, 2014 (edited) All this discussion of the 'bar' and nobody mentions the actual problem with it....or did I see the word 'refraction' somewhere in there? :D Ok, ok, stopit! Edited April 29, 2014 by ARM505 1
Feathered_IV Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 No, that's spot on. The pilot of a 190 is basically reclining within the cockpit. Funny you should mention that. Every time I see a photo of a 190 pilot in his seat, he always seems to be leaning forward against his straps.
=CFC=Conky Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 (edited) LOL.. riot throwback! That was hot and heavy when I got to IL2 in 02... Just as long as it don't wobble when you fire the wing mounted guns... Edited April 30, 2014 by CFC_Conky
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