Scratching my head over wingmen behavior in SP (career mode)

[jojy47jojyrocks]

Wish there were commands for wingman or my flight element to attack air defence only targets near me....so I could focus on my primary.

 

We also need commands like attack primary and then RTB after finishing the obj or Return to formation.

[41Sqn_Skipper]

4 hours ago, jojy47jojyrocks said:

 

We also need commands like attack primary and then RTB after finishing the obj or Return to formation.

 

Command to send the wingmen back to base is already available and also to rejoin formation (it's No. 5 and called "resume mission" or similar)

[Lusekofte]

I gave the order «do like me» and attacked ships. I dropped the bombs and so did they where they was , not iver the ships

return to base is a flare and need to be close to the formation 

[Jaegermeister]

I think you guys have totally misinterpreted the problem.

 

It's not an AI behavior issue. It's how the missions are modeled in the campaign generators. If a ground spotter vehicle is used to target vehicles, planes, objects, etc, it will usually select the enemy entity closest to it. The AAA targeted by the AI is probably the closest object to the ground spotter vehicle when it is activated.  If an "Attack Area" MCU is being generated, that would also produce random results, usually with the closest enemy ground object being targeted by the AI. It may be that the Attack Area MCU is not linked to the AI at all, but just to the player. 

 

Keep in mind that whatever the leader targets will get attacked by the wingmen and if the leader (you) selects a different target, #2 and his faithful followers will still go after whatever the mission targeting logic has selected.   

 

If it has been reported as an AI bug, the AI Dev has probably already realized that it will require work on the campaign mission generator. I have no idea if that has been looked at recently or if it is a priority. It would need to be analyzed in the ME to see how the missions are organized and then someone would have to go from there to figure it out.

[jojy47jojyrocks]

10 hours ago, 41Sqn_Skipper said:

 

Command to send the wingmen back to base is already available and also to rejoin formation (it's No. 5 and called "resume mission" or similar)

 

 

I do know the commands.

 

But the commands like resume mission is vague and they sometimes don't bomb the target and just RTB after it, or just follow me around. The commands like, do like me seems very useless...

 

What I was hinting at is specific commands like...

 

- Resume mission/Engage mission and then RTB

 

- Resume mission/Engage mission and rejoin flight (after OBJ is done).

 

- Attack Air defence assets nearby or nearest.

 

- Attack bomber specifics

 

- Attack fighter class

 

- State fuel status

 

- Formation spacing as well would be good.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 15, 2020 by jojy47jojyrocks

[Lusekofte]

7 hours ago, Jaegermeister said:

It's not an AI behavior issue.

I think you are right. The mission design determines Your wingmens efficience. 
The lack of authority we as leader have in order to override the mission design is probably more the problem

[Jaegermeister]

3 hours ago, jojy47jojyrocks said:

I do know the commands.

 

But the commands like resume mission is vague and they sometimes don't bomb the target and just RTB after it, or just follow me around. 

 

You know them but maybe you don’t know what they actually do.

 

The command Return to Our Mission (F5) is a Force Complete command. It makes your wingmen disregard previous instructions or clears the attack, escort or whatever they had been doing. It does not restore previous mission objectives that they were following prior to the command. That’s why they just follow you around.

 

Once you start giving them flight leader orders you have interrupted the programmed behavior. If you lead them to another trigger like a waypoint or an attack area or whatever, they resume normal programmed behavior. You would need to reissue formation and behavior commands until you run into that next trigger, which you can’t really predict and sometimes don’t know happened. Once you directly take control of their actions, you may have to do it for the rest of the mission for every action they do until you activate the land command at the last waypoint.

 

If you tell them to Return to Base (F7) don’t expect to be able to regain control of their actions.

[RedeyeStorm]

13 hours ago, 216th_LuseKofte said:

I gave the order «do like me» and attacked ships. I dropped the bombs and so did they where they was , not iver the ships

return to base is a flare and need to be close to the formation 

This command was added specifically for the bombers when you are flight commander. It was added to make sure your entire formation would drop their bombs at the same time as you, the flight leader. If you do NOT issue that command there is the possibility that you alone are dropping bombs.

 

I have also used this command when flying a fighter to make sure my wingmen wouldn’t fly off to chase some target when on a escort mission. When you give this command they will stay in formation when you run into other fighters. It does nothing if you issue it when your wingmen are already breaking off to engage though. When I wan’t to let them go there own way I issue the ‘rejoin and resume mission’. 

[Lusekofte]

9 minutes ago, [Pb]RedeyeStorm said:

This command was added specifically for the bombers when you are flight commander. It was added to make sure your entire formation would drop their bombs at the same time as you, the flight leader. If you do NOT issue that command there is the possibility that you alone are dropping bombs.

 

I have also used this command when flying a fighter to make sure my wingmen wouldn’t fly off to chase some target when on a escort mission. When you give this command they will stay in formation when you run into other fighters. It does nothing if you issue it when your wingmen are already breaking off to engage though. When I wan’t to let them go there own way I issue the ‘rejoin and resume mission’. 

Cannot give anymore upvotes today so I have to do it manually ?

[Sybreed]

6 hours ago, 216th_LuseKofte said:

I think you are right. The mission design determines Your wingmens efficience. 
The lack of authority we as leader have in order to override the mission design is probably more the problem

 

but I'm not the leader in any of my missions so your theory doesn't hold at all.

[jojy47jojyrocks]

8 hours ago, Jaegermeister said:

 

You know them but maybe you don’t know what they actually do.

 

The command Return to Our Mission (F5) is a Force Complete command. It makes your wingmen disregard previous instructions or clears the attack, escort or whatever they had been doing. It does not restore previous mission objectives that they were following prior to the command. That’s why they just follow you around.

 

Once you start giving them flight leader orders you have interrupted the programmed behavior. If you lead them to another trigger like a waypoint or an attack area or whatever, they resume normal programmed behavior. You would need to reissue formation and behavior commands until you run into that next trigger, which you can’t really predict and sometimes don’t know happened. Once you directly take control of their actions, you may have to do it for the rest of the mission for every action they do until you activate the land command at the last waypoint.

 

If you tell them to Return to Base (F7) don’t expect to be able to regain control of their actions.

 

 

The wingman or our flight mates is a liability at present from. It would be nice if we could just command them to just go for mission directive/obj and then RTB or follow us like in DCS World. One of the most super useless command I see is the do like me command.

 

The wingman commands need some overhaul.

[JonRedcorn]

On 4/20/2020 at 6:27 PM, Asgar said:

The A5 never was, is not and never will be a ground attacker

What exactly is the point of this comment? ?

18 hours ago, Jaegermeister said:

I think you guys have totally misinterpreted the problem.

 

It's not an AI behavior issue. It's how the missions are modeled in the campaign generators. If a ground spotter vehicle is used to target vehicles, planes, objects, etc, it will usually select the enemy entity closest to it. The AAA targeted by the AI is probably the closest object to the ground spotter vehicle when it is activated.  If an "Attack Area" MCU is being generated, that would also produce random results, usually with the closest enemy ground object being targeted by the AI. It may be that the Attack Area MCU is not linked to the AI at all, but just to the player. 

 

Keep in mind that whatever the leader targets will get attacked by the wingmen and if the leader (you) selects a different target, #2 and his faithful followers will still go after whatever the mission targeting logic has selected.   

 

If it has been reported as an AI bug, the AI Dev has probably already realized that it will require work on the campaign mission generator. I have no idea if that has been looked at recently or if it is a priority. It would need to be analyzed in the ME to see how the missions are organized and then someone would have to go from there to figure it out.

I dunno if anyone remembers but back with Il2 1946 you could literally select planes or ground targets with a selection box and order either individual planes, a flight or a pair of your wingman to attack that selected object. Games was way ahead of its time in regards to flight commanding. Hell you could call in BACK UP from nearby flights. Get directions back to base, it even added morse code to find your carrier fleet.

Edited May 15, 2020 by JonRedcorn

[Jaegermeister]

 

13 minutes ago, JonRedcorn said:

I dunno if anyone remembers but back with Il2 1946 you could literally select planes or ground targets with a selection box and order either individual planes, a flight or a pair of your wingman to attack that selected object. 

 

Yeah, you could target a ground object and tell red flight to attack it, select another one and send blue flight after it and then attack something else with your flight and tell your wingmen to "attack my target" and they would. I don't think it is realistic, but it was much more precise and added a sort of strategic command factor to the attack scenarios.

[JonRedcorn]

4 minutes ago, Jaegermeister said:

 

 

Yeah, you could target a ground object and tell red flight to attack it, select another one and send blue flight after it and then attack something else with your flight and tell your wingmen to "attack my target" and they would. I don't think it is realistic, but it was much more precise and added a sort of strategic command factor to the attack scenarios.

Maybe not super realistic but the radio commands certainly worked pretty well and enabled you to do some really fun stuff with the AI. I'd play this game a lot more if we had the same level of interaction with the AI. Maybe one day. That's why I keep buying addons hoping they revamp this stuff at some point. Maybe ten years from now..

[Jaegermeister]

Maybe, radio comms system seems to be a touchy subject.

[DN308]

Seems to...

my questions on that subject to Jason were always rejected...