Some before and after on new diffused reflections (Work in progress). Info for skinners.

[41Sqn_Skipper]

Just now, ICDP said:

 

Do you genuinely think a graphic artist would be of zero help programming AI or FM improvements?  It's like asking a factory worker to try their hand at surgery.

 

On the other hand: If you have money to pay 3 people. Then you can either hire 2 graphic artists and 1 AI and FM programmer or 1 graphic artist and 2 AI and FM programmers. 

[Hoss]

21 hours ago, Reggie_Mental said:

I prefer the original highly polished look.

 

It looks 'faster' and more 'metal-ey'

 

 

 I think yer lookin for Slickery..

?

 

 

[Jade_Monkey]

1 hour ago, smink1701 said:

Meh.

I really wish they would concentrate on the important stuff for a flight simulator like simulating flight ... better AI and FMs.  I think the dev team wants to show they are constantly improving the game without tackling the hard / expensive stuff.  IMHO.  

 

We can all have our opinions, but don't pretend like improving the DM and the game's graphics engine is not important. Deferred shading will have an impact on performace whether it's unloading some work from the CPU or just being able to provide more at the same compute expense.

I would agree if they were dedicating their time to selling skin packs and the same plane for multiple countries like they do in WT, but it is not the case.

[Uufflakke]

3 hours ago, Bearcat said:

 

I was wondering the same thing. I actually like both looks and think that both were used during the war. I have a picture of a aircrewman polishing the side of a 332nd P-51 and his reflection was clearly visible... liken mirrored surface. Inhope that both can be achieved.

 

3 hours ago, Raptorattacker said:

I bet it wasn't when the plane got back (if it did, that is)! They all used to clean the planes to give the slightest advantage they could in speed/reduced resistance. There's some late 109's that had been cleaned SO much that the paint (of which they were becoming short) was almost worn off!!

 

 

According the text accompanying the image:

On an airbase in England, Staff Sargent William Accoo, crew chief for one of the Tuskegee airmen of the 15th United States Air Force, washes down the P-51 Mustang fighter plane of his pilot with soap and water before waxing it to give it more speed, September 1944. (Photo by PhotoQuest/Getty Images)

https://www.gettyimages.nl/detail/nieuwsfoto's/on-an-airbase-in-england-staff-sargent-william-accoo-crew-nieuwsfotos/115463106?adppopup=true

 

[smink1701]

39 minutes ago, 41Sqn_Banks said:

 

On the other hand: If you have money to pay 3 people. Then you can either hire 2 graphic artists and 1 AI and FM programmer or 1 graphic artist and 2 AI and FM programmers. 

Exactly!  I haven't seen many if any posts complaining about the stainless skins overly mirrored finish.  I have read MANY about the superhuman AI.  So for the dev team to address something that doesn't need to be addressed is just throwing us a bone to say hey, we're improving the game.

[Raptorattacker]

1 hour ago, smink1701 said:

I think the dev team wants to show they are constantly improving the game without tackling the hard / expensive stuff.  IMHO.  

A BIT harsh!...

44 minutes ago, Jade_Monkey said:

I would agree if they were dedicating their time to selling skin packs and the same plane for multiple countries like they do in WT, but it is not the case.

I would've just 'liked' but I've run out for today! Well said anyway JM!

[Danziger]

16 minutes ago, smink1701 said:

Exactly!  I haven't seen many if any posts complaining about the stainless skins overly mirrored finish.  I have read MANY about the superhuman AI.  So for the dev team to address something that doesn't need to be addressed is just throwing us a bone to say hey, we're improving the game.

You obviously only read what you want to see then. People have been complaining about the "wet look" from day one.

[Uufflakke]

 

I don't wanna say much but I thought this topic is about before and after reflections.

 

And not (again and again and again) about FM, DM and AI.

 

@ ICDP,

Thank you for showing us the difference.

[BraveSirRobin]

19 minutes ago, smink1701 said:

Exactly!  I haven't seen many if any posts complaining about the stainless skins overly mirrored finish.  I have read MANY about the superhuman AI.  So for the dev team to address something that doesn't need to be addressed is just throwing us a bone to say hey, we're improving the game.

Making the aircraft and environment look realistic is one of the most important parts of the development of the game.  And the person who does that sort of work is most likely not going to have anything to do with programming the AI.  They hire different people for those specialties.  That’s how they improve lots of things at the same time.

 

Also, if you want more of a say in how those things are prioritized, you have to write a very large check.

[LuftManu]

I love the new reflections! Great work ICDP! 

[SharpeXB]

I saw that Jason mentioned having official skin packs in the future. That’s the only good solution, like RoF has. Really all these custom made skins are an unfortunate waste of time, they’re too difficult to download and they can’t appear anywhere in the game except on your own screen. They can’t be seen in Career Mode or MP unless both players have them which isn’t likely. The whole non-system right now unfortunately makes it a big waste of time for all involved.  

[smink1701]

45 minutes ago, Danziger said:

You obviously only read what you want to see then. People have been complaining about the "wet look" from day one.

I haven't seen MANY.

42 minutes ago, Uufflakke said:

 

I don't wanna say much but I thought this topic is about before and after reflections.

 

And not (again and again and again) about FM, DM and AI.fff

@ ICDP,

Thank you for showing us the difference.

"And not (again and again and again) about FM, DM and AI."

Any idea why the FM and AI are brought up again and again and again?

 

 

[Uufflakke]

22 minutes ago, smink1701 said:

I haven't seen MANY.

"And not (again and again and again) about FM, DM and AI."

Any idea why the FM and AI are brought up again and again and again?

 

 

The only thing you do is hijacking the thread.

My only request to you is

 

[smink1701]

1 minute ago, Uufflakke said:

 

The only thing you do is hijacking the thread.

My only request to you is

 

Ok, sorry.

I think the current mirror finish is fine and from pics i've seen, somewhat accurate.  I like the way it is and changing seems like a wasted effort that could be used improving other aspects of the game like FM and AI?

Happy?

[Megalax]

Does this only affect reflective skins? I tend to keep the shine relatively low on my skins so how would it affect them?

[Gambit21]

I have a gigantic scrap file of WWII birds, and almost never are they polished. 

Further under actual war time conditions the crews don't have time to engage in unnecessary busy work like polishing the fuselage.

Not saying it never happened, I'm saying it was not typical during the period, especially in 44-45 on the continent. I can guarantee you that squadrons

stationed in Belgium etc during the Bulge offensive NEVER had time to polish aircraft, even if they wanted to (which they usually didn't)

 

I'd much rather have a renderer that is capable of representing aircraft as they looked during the war.

 

Even when they are polished (next to never) they don't look wet/clear coated.

Now a B/C Mustang stationed in England with more down time/off days etc, is more plausible, even then it wasn't typical.

 

The new reflections/render is a welcome addition - much appreciated.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

I saw that Jason mentioned having official skin packs in the future. That’s the only good solution, like RoF has. Really all these custom made skins are an unfortunate waste of time, they’re too difficult to download and they can’t appear anywhere in the game except on your own screen. They can’t be seen in Career Mode or MP unless both players have them which isn’t likely. The whole non-system right now unfortunately makes it a big waste of time for all involved.  

 

It is not often we agree but, yup.....................we agree.

 

And not entirely quote related; I don't think anyone is asking that all of the aircraft retain the wet look. I'm just curious if the hobbyist skinner still has the opportunity to create modern skins to his or her liking for their own enjoyment?

[LukeFF]

5 hours ago, smink1701 said:

I really wish they would concentrate on the important stuff for a flight simulator like simulating flight ... better AI and FMs.  I think the dev team wants to show they are constantly improving the game without tackling the hard / expensive stuff.  IMHO.  

 

Either you're trolling, or you really, really, really have not been paying attention to the recent development updates.

[Ribbon]

3 hours ago, smink1701 said:

I haven't seen MANY.

"And not (again and again and again) about FM, DM and AI."

Any idea why the FM and AI are brought up again and again and again?

 

 

They hired a dedicated AI dev and AI is improving a lot lately.

FM is improving since release so i don't see why not improve graphics engine which will benefit not just skin reflections but other visuals too, immersion wise.

Goal should be to improve all aspects of game as time goes on!

 

[Raptorattacker]

4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Really all these custom made skins are an unfortunate waste of time, they’re too difficult to download and they can’t appear anywhere in the game except on your own screen.

I don't usually step in on ongoing differing points of view but I GOTTA say that, if you think custom skins are 'an unfortunate waste of time' then, in my humble opinion, you really ARE out of the immersion loop. If that is the case for you then why on EARTH have any opinion on the rendering process at ALL?

What appears on MY screen is fairly up on my list of priorities and skins of any description, be they custom or default, add an enormous amount to that media and it's aesthetics. Just take a look at some of the fantastic videos and screenshots that many many people post up, that in itself is a testament to the whole brilliant 'look' of this fantastic product.

Not only that but also look at the background scenery in some of the comparison shots posted above and just the difference to the grass/ground effect is enough to allow for far better spotting of ground targets alone, surely?

To each their own, horses for courses...

Rap (Custom Skinner).

[Gambit21]

 

 

Quote

 

I like the way it is and changing seems like a wasted effort that could be used improving other aspects of the game like FM and AI?

 

Did you just now roll off a potato truck?

This is not how game development works. The guy working on the render engine is not the same guy doing the flight models or AI.

As Luke suggested, you're either trolling or completely clueless.

Edited April 8, 2020 by Gambit21

[SharpeXB]

59 minutes ago, Raptorattacker said:

I don't usually step in on ongoing differing points of view but I GOTTA say that, if you think custom skins are 'an unfortunate waste of time' then, in my humble opinion, you really ARE out of the immersion loop.

We will be getting the system of official packs which is a vast improvement over the big mess that exists now. 
so that’s good. The current situation is such a debacle that really, making any thread to discuss anything related to skins is a gigantic waste of time. 
 

Please give us official skin packs and end the madness ?

[Feathered_IV]

It was never one of the features that would make me quit out of the game in frustration or boredom, but it is nice to see this small improvement nonetheless.  

[smink1701]

I'll try to post only positive comments in the future.

[peregrine7]

I like the reflection changes, though at my (VR) graphics settings I don't see it making much difference.

I do, however, notice the team has done some changes to colour grading / lighting. The changes look quite good, with some of the oversaturated yellow/green noticeable absent!

 

[=EXPEND=CG_Justin]

I really really like the new changes in reflections! I never liked the "wet" look and thought it was inappropriate for WW2 aircraft, though the effect does look great when representing post war "airshow" aircraft. My only concern is if there is any negative effects on performance.

 

Thanks for giving us this "behind the scenes" look into what is to come, ICDP! And a special thanks to the Dev's for the constant improvements, it is very much appreciated!

 

Keep moving FORWARD!

[Dakpilot]

6 hours ago, smink1701 said:

I'll try to post only positive comments in the future.

 

The pushback on your comments are nothing to do with being positive or negative,  rather more about being relevant. 

 

Nothing wrong with being negative IF relevant and legitimate. 

 

But I feel a huge improvement and update  to graphics engine and possibly better use of computer performance is very positive, more headroom will allow the relevant programmers to make better FM and AI improvements 

 

Cheers, Dakpilot 

[Raptorattacker]

25 minutes ago, Dakpilot said:

Cheers, Dakpilot 

A great point very concisely and diplomatically put!

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

I kind of hope that certain plane skins that are meant to be shiny can ultimately be kept shiny.   

 

I'm not trying to SJW soapbox here, but there is a reason the Tuskegee Airmen crews polished and waxed their planes to such a high degree.   It's not to get an extra 2mph.  It's because they had an opportunity.  They were able to break the "Damned if you do.  Damned if you don't" dichotomy they were stuck with in American culture of the time by choosing to "do".  

 

Utmost professionalism in the pilots and ground crew is why they kept their planes "factory or better" clean. 

[Tipsi]

7 hours ago, smink1701 said:

I'll try to post only positive comments in the future.

Hi Smink1701,

 

I think you’re missing the point a little bit. The devs are striving to make il2 the best WW2 flying simulation possible, and sometimes this means they have opportunities to improve graphical elements to their engine. 
 

Almost every patch they release improves the AI and, next patch we are even going to see massive changes to the damage model. Do you not think this is a positive and productive change?
 

The OP is trying to show as all sneak previews of what’s to come and he’s obviously quite proud of the changes.

 

My point is give em a ducking break man...
 

[Trooper117]

I never was overly fond of the wet look sheen on the games aircraft... the new look we are starting to see pictures of is more to my taste, and in keeping with the historical look of WWII aircraft that I see in library pictures.

If the update to the graphical engine can give us this new look as a by product I think it's certainly worth it.

[PatCartier]

I am surprised by this development because I had not felt the need for it. By working on the alpha layer, it was possible to achieve a look that I liked. We'll see what happens, maybe it'll be even better.

However, on the screenshots Martin shows us, the diffuse effect seems a bit exaggerated to me.

In addition, although most of the time the planes didn't shine very much, it happened sometimes nevertheless. There is no single truth about this. It all depended on the time, the place, the intensity of operations and other variables as well.

Anyway, I'm glad that the developers are committed to getting the best possible rendering. I'm curious to see the result.

We're counting on you Martin to find the right balance.

 

Edited April 6, 2020 by PatCartier

[Livai]

On 4/4/2020 at 9:54 PM, ICDP said:

Here is a comparison of a clean P51 skin from Tom Weiss.  The metal has a more brushed rather than polished look but I prefer the new look over the old one but it really is subjective on these modern clean warbirds.  The polished chrome look is generally out of place on a WWI era plane in my opinion.  Somewhere in between might be a good balance but I'm personally preferring the new style if it was a take it or leave it choice.

Spoiler

 

 

 

It's up to the plane skin drawers alone to decide how the plane skin should look in the end and how much gloss, specular highlight, reflection are applied onto the plane skin.

 

On 4/5/2020 at 7:59 PM, ICDP said:

 

Do you genuinely think a graphic programmer would be of any help programming AI or FM improvements?  It's like asking a factory worker to try their hand at surgery.

 

When the graphic programmer deface the plane skin drawers already finished work or limit the plane skin drawers freedom in visual studio. Do you think this makes the plane skin drawers happy or bring us forward?

 

On 4/5/2020 at 3:51 PM, [Pb]Bones18 said:

I'm assuming they aren't using PBR rendering yet correct?

 

The plane skin alpha-channel is a PBR - alpha-channel. If used or how good, is another Question............

[QB.Beno]

Wow ICDP, the new lighting is light and day more realistic. The old reflections looked cool but not real. 

[PatCartier]

Will this mod affect the perception of in-flight contacts ?

If so, in what extent ?

[Danziger]

On 4/5/2020 at 5:13 PM, szelljr said:

...planes in war .

Have you made Wanda yet? That would be a pretty sweet skin...

On 4/5/2020 at 12:24 PM, ICDP said:

 

If you haven't already you would be better posting a bug report on the forum specifically setup for reporting issues and bugs.

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/forum/89-technical-issues-and-bug-reports/

 

Back on topic.

 

I am looking at what can be done with the new lighting rather that what can't right now.  Previously getting a clean looking camouflaged skin with some realistic reflections was impossible without the "wet look".

 

Here are some G14 screens showing how the alpha affects new reflections and lighting affects on a camouflaged skin.  I have increased the alpha channel to levels that are pretty high.  In sim when you move the camera position the reflections and lighting look much improved on this particular skin.

 

Current Il-2.  The wing is far too glossy and wet.

 

Now the new WiP Lighting.  The same skin now shows a much more realistic look.

 

Old

 

New

 

Old

 

New

 

This looks a lot better. The bright highlight spots on the nose are the same but the wing no longer has that flickering wetness with mirror reflections to it. Looks much more consistent with pictures from the war.

 

Edited April 7, 2020 by Danziger

[szelljr]

11 minutes ago, Danziger said:

Have you made Wanda yet? That would be a pretty sweet skin...

 

 

But  i cant find any other pictures. Serial ?? Text on the other part ??    .

 

 

[Danziger]

9 minutes ago, szelljr said:

 

Number should be 484959.

The text on the side is FF-959.

Wanda is only on the right side no other art visible.

Also the doors for tail wheel appear to be removed.

 

Edited April 7, 2020 by Danziger

[BlitzPig_EL]

Those Mustangs were assigned to the ground attack role during the early stages of the Korean War.  They were old and tired when they got there, but it's all we had that could be put in the field rapidly, and just like the F105s that were sent to Viet Nam over a decade later, they were aircraft that big Air Force wanted out of their inventory, and were sent there to be used up and discarded.  

 

You never saw F86s looking that scruffy.

Edited April 7, 2020 by BlitzPig_EL

[Raptorattacker]

4 hours ago, Danziger said:

Looks much more consistent with pictures from the war.

Looks much more consistent with pictures from ANYWHERE, of ANYTHING!!

I know this is an oldie but it's a great watch and a great example of what these machines looked like in the war. We ARE in a wartime-based game, after all...

https://youtu.be/kR6lWSIWUOA

 

Edited April 7, 2020 by Raptorattacker