Aren't the HE-111 H6 propeller mechanics wrong ?

[fjacobsen]

In IL-2 BOX the HE-111 H6 has constant speed propellers.

 

But as far as I know the real HE-111 H6 had variable pitch propellers with indication of propeller pitch on "Clocks" indicating the propeller pitch like we see on the FW-190.

In various books and on Wikipedia (not the best source - I know), the HE-111 is described to have variable pitch propellers and NOT constant speed propellers.

 

Considering this, I think that IL-2 CLOD Blitz got it more correct, since this is how it works there:

 

The propeller levers has 3 positions - "Feather - Neutral - Full fine".

The normal position is "Neutral".

For increasing the pitch You should hold the lever in the "feather" position, whereby the propeller starts increase it´s pitch. Look at the "Clock" inorder to set the desired pitch.

For decreasing the pitch You should hold the lever in the "Full fine" position, whereby the propeller starts to decrease it´s pitch. Look at the "Clock" inorder to set the desired pitch.

When the desired pitch is reached - return the lever to "Neutral".

 

Instead of checking the "Clock" You can also read the RPM gauges.

 

If so, then I think that the HE-111 H6 in IL-2 BOX should be changed to this too.

 

Generally Gerrman WW2 aircraft didn´t use constant speed propellers.

Even the fighters Bf-109 and FW-190 had variable pitch propellers, that where linked to the throttle lever, but with a switch to change between auto and manual. In manual there where a 3 way toggle switch for increase / decrease prop RPM.

 

Same might apply to the JU-88.

 

 

Edited March 22, 2020 by fjacobsen

[G_Schwarz]

from wiki "A constant-speed propeller is a variable-pitch aircraft propeller that automatically changes its blade pitch in order to maintain a chosen rotational speed"

 

 

 

also watch this great explanation of it, he will start with the constant-speed propeller 

 

 

 

Edited March 22, 2020 by G_Schwarz

[LukeFF]

I'm sorry but what? No, the way it is modeled now is correct. 

[Art-J]

@fjacobsen - DB605-powered 109s and all 190s have constant speed props, it's just they don't use a separate prop lever, auto takes care of that as you noticed. Lack of such a lever doesn't mean the plane doesn't have a CSP.

 

Fly any of them in auto and observe the pitch indicator. For any given constant boost and RPM combination (chosen by auto) the pitch will be changing with airspeed to maintain RPM - that's CSP allright. True, when a new throttle position is chosen, auto controller will re-adjust RPM as it sees fit (in Allied plane pilot would do that), but then it starts governing constant RPM by pitch and we're back to square one.

 

Can't comment on He-111, though, as I'm not familiar with this airplane.

Edited March 22, 2020 by Art-J

[Yogiflight]

1 hour ago, Art-J said:

@fjacobsen - DB605-powered 109s and all 190s have constant speed props, it's just they don't use a separate prop lever, auto takes care of that as you noticed. Lack of such a lever doesn't mean the plane doesn't have a CSP.

 

Fly any of them in auto and observe the pitch indicator. For any given constant boost and RPM combination (chosen by auto) the pitch will be changing with airspeed to maintain RPM - that's CSP allright. True, when a new throttle position is chosen, auto controller will re-adjust RPM as it sees fit (in Allied plane pilot would do that), but then it starts governing constant RPM by pitch and we're back to square one.

 

Can't comment on He-111, though, as I'm not familiar with this airplane.

He is talking about manual mode, in which the pilot increases or decreases pitch in the 109 and 190 with his thumb on the throttle lever.

[Yogiflight]

The OP is not too wrong. On the website of 'Deutsche Luftwaffe.com' I found a short manual for the He 111 H, equipped with Jumo 211 engines from September 1938, which advices to set the prop pitch to 12.00 for engine start. So the He 111 must have had pitch control. You still can see, where the gauges were positioned in front of the flaps gauge and the gear device. When I was flying the He 111 for the first time, I was wondering, why the pitch control gauges, I knew from IL-2 1946, were left out. So maybe it was changed with later versions from pitch control to constant speed propellers.

BTW, according to the short manual, there also must have been gauges for the pitch control at the engine nacelles.

[fjacobsen]

Ok...

 

I have found som documents, and indeed the propellers are of the constantspeed type.

They are electrically controlled,  and just like on the Bf-109 and FW-190 there should be those "clock" gauges indicating the actual pitch.

 

The clocks can be seen just ahead of the red knobed levers on the left side here:

 

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Germany-Air-Force/Heinkel-He-111P-1/1337759?qsp=eJwljUEKwjAQRe/y13URhC6yUxHc6cILhGRoi9UJk4EaSu/uNO4e78P7KyJ/lL76rJngUShIHNEhBwnvAr/iRXVhSca4XQ/OuX0dWfkSlAaWCt93KCx6NkQye4qRslLC398lkewTldjSg105A5JHYxx782kqeQ6tQRqmGdv2A5uANDA%3D

 

Also there should be possible to set propeller pitch manually, just like on the Bf-109 and FW-190 according to this flight manual for the HE-111_H:

https://www.deutscheluftwaffe.com/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/h/Heinkel/He 111/Kurzbetriebsanleitung He 111 H fuer Besatzung.pdf

 

Look on page 13, where it´s stated as part of the engine check procedure: "Luftschraubenblattsteigung af 12:00 Uhr" (Propeller blade pitch 12:00 O'clock).

[Yogiflight]

2 hours ago, fjacobsen said:

I have found som documents, and indeed the propellers are of the constantspeed type.

They are electrically controlled,  and just like on the Bf-109 and FW-190 there should be those "clock" gauges indicating the actual pitch.

For constant speed propellers, you don't need the 'clock' gauge, showing the prop pitch, as you don't set the prop pitch, but the RPM.

The 'clock' gauge in the 109 and 190 is for manual mode, when the pilot sets the prop pitch, like I explained in my first post above yours.

Additionally read the second post, too.

[fjacobsen]

6 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

For constant speed propellers, you don't need the 'clock' gauge, showing the prop pitch, as you don't set the prop pitch, but the RPM.

The 'clock' gauge in the 109 and 190 is for manual mode, when the pilot sets the prop pitch, like I explained in my first post above yours.

Additionally read the second post, too.

 

As far as I know, the H6 used the same engine as the early Bf-109, so I guess they where operated equally.

Though the props where constant speed, there must have been a manual override too, thats why the Clocks are present also on the real H6.

 

As such the IL-2 BOX simulation isn´t wrong, but it lacks the Clocks and the manual prop pitch mode.

 

 

 

[41Sqn_Skipper]

He 111 P series used DB 601 variants also used in Bf109 E.

He 111 H series used Jumo 211 variants. 

Bf 109 A-D used Jumo 210.

 

 

[Art-J]

Can you switch to manual in 109F-Ks and 190s in this sim anyway? I only fly them occasionally for sightseeing in default configuration so I don't know how deep the simulation goes in this aspect.

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, fjacobsen said:

Though the props where constant speed, there must have been a manual override too, thats why the Clocks are present also on the real H6.

 

Sorry, but no, those clocks were not present in the H-6 nor the H-16, which both used the same engines. The way the engine management is modeled and the way the cockpit is modeled is correct. Maintenance manuals and cockpit diagrams from the time confirm this.

Edited March 23, 2020 by LukeFF

[Yogiflight]

1 hour ago, Art-J said:

Can you switch to manual in 109F-Ks and 190s in this sim anyway? I only fly them occasionally for sightseeing in default configuration so I don't know how deep the simulation goes in this aspect.

Yes you can. At the throttle lever is the switch to increase/decrease prop pitch.

2 hours ago, fjacobsen said:

thats why the Clocks are present also on the real H6.

Do you have a picture of a He 111 H6, because the one you posted above is a P1.

[fjacobsen]

Yeah the picture is that of a P1.

Searching further seems to confirm that the H6 which used the Jumo 211 engines didn´t have these clocks and probably also not had the auto/man option.

So the IL-2 BOX HE-111 seems correct as they are.

[Art-J]

53 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

Yes you can. At the throttle lever is the switch to increase/decrease prop pitch.

 

Understood, thanks. I've been only experimenting with it in DCS 109 and 190s, not enough flying time in their Il-2 counterparts, though.

Edited March 23, 2020 by Art-J

[fjacobsen]

20 minutes ago, Art-J said:

 

Understood, thanks. I've been only experimenting with it in DCS 109 and 190s, not enough flying time in their Il-2 counterparts, though.

 

Normally for take off, You set the propeller to manual mode, and set the "clock" gauge to 12:00 or 12:30. Once airborne You set them back to auto.

For landing You revert to manual and 12:00 / 12:30.

 

Note that the FW-190 had a so called "Kommando Gerät", and the Bf-109 a similar but slightly different unit.

That's why You don't find a mixture or propeller lever in these aircraft. The pilot only has to think about the throttle setting during flight.

Propeller RPM is set as a function of throttle lever position, but for take off and landing You want to set the propeller at full fine pitch, which is done by setting the clock gauge to the 12:00 / 12:30 position. Maybe that's why the propellers for these fighters aren´t described as constant speed, but rather variable pitch.

 

I various documents I have seen both 12:00 and 12:30, which might be due to different engine / propeller combinations.

 

On the first Spitfire marks, there where also a variable pitch propeller, but it simply had two positions - fine and course.

I have also seen description of other aircraft (civilian) with variable pitch, that wheren't constant speed propellers.

Edited March 23, 2020 by fjacobsen

[Art-J]

^ I know, I'm familiar with powerplant systems of both types after flying them every now and then for fun in DCS for a few years, I just didn't spend equal time in their Il-2 renditions. Knowing that auto systems yield somewhat different ATA&RPM combinations in both simulators, I might experiment with manual modes in Il-2 to see how they perform over here.

[Yogiflight]

Why? I never use manual mode, as it doesn't give me any advantages, except in the 190 for taxiing. At the homepage of 'Deutsche Luftwaffe.com' I found one manual for the 109 G from december 1942, which states to set to automatic for takeoff. And I found a manual for the 190 A1, which doesn't give an advice, if auto or manual mode should be used, just gives advices how to use both versions.

 

[Art-J]

Oh, I usually don't bother with manual mode either. Just curious how programmers responsible for flight and engine modelling implemented these systems in both simulators, cause I've noticed one needs somewhat different power settings to obtain similar takeoff and landing behaviour in DCS vs Il-2. I play both these sims in mostly non-combat manner, so these modelling details are more interesting for me.

[Lusekofte]

I rather not think of the way rpm is governed in German bombers. I have my eyes on the watch. 
I know I got half a hour in climb mode before I dent the engines. 
That is what we are dealing with. A CFS focused on fair gameplay. 

Some things will never really be as realistic as it once where. But I gonna give it to the dev’s, they had zeroed in for a standard but are developing it to a higher level , trying to adapt their ambitions and budget with our wishes
 

Edited March 24, 2020 by 216th_LuseKofte