Dr. 1 too powerful?

[Yours_truly_Ace]

Coming from RoF (playing it since 2009, a ton of multiplayer and some singleplayer),
I am having a real hard time shooting down the Dr. 1 in FC; 
Today I encountered a head on attack against a Dr. 1 player and I sprayed him with bullets (I saw all the puffs coming from his front of engine area),
he hit me too of course, but only with a couple of hits (at least what I heard and felt) and I started venting a tiny bit of fuel. 
When he flew past me he did not smoke or vent anything. And we went into a turn fight. But suddenly my engine faulted and I had to do an emergency landing. 

This is not the first time though. I have met several Dr. 1 pilots head on attack, hit them several times but doesn't seem to do much damage.

Also when attacking them from behind the only way of getting them is shooting the pilot it seems. Wings or structure doesn't seem to take much damge.

In RoF I had no trouble damaging the Dr.1 even against veteran pilots. 

Did you devs coat it with some special armor? lol
 

Edited March 7, 2020 by 127Tom

[BMA_Hellbender]

It's no longer shedding wings like it did in RoF, which makes sense as it's a cantilever wing construction and the outboard struts are only there to reduce vibration and flexing.

 

Fokker V.4 prototype:

 

[OpOctopus]

I've had a similar experience against a Dr1 in a Spad. We went headon, I sprayed him on the engine and wings. He missed his shots but, he turned around when we passed each other and started shooting. He hit my fuel tank from a good distance. I went and made an other pass. We exanged fire but, no good hits from me or him. I went rtb. He tried to catch me but, I obviously was faster. I went out of fuel very quickly after and couldn't make it to the Af. I E-landed on allied side and he was awarded kill...

[SeaW0lf]

Yes, no more shaking planes or folding wings. That's a deal breaker. Reading WWI books and accounts, they often came back with several bullet wholes on the canvas, some broken wood and stuff, sometimes they did not even knew that they were hit. And they would keep on going with their patrols. This is what happens here. Many times I go through a fight, get some hits on the wings and fuselage (you can see them) and I just keep on patrolling because the plane is not affected like it used to be in ROF, when a single burst anywhere on the plane [we would see the canvas wrinkling] you had to return to base because it started shaking. 
  
The Dr1 is always hard to shot down. She's a very compact plane and it easily swirls around its axes. You have to hit that small section of the cockpit / engine, and you also have to account for ping / lag.
  
Regarding the Camel engine, in Flying Circus it was rolled back to pre 2014 flight model. She always had a glass engine. Whoever started playing after November 2014 is accustomed to a severely nerfed Camel (like an 80hp Camel) that can't be over-revved in dogfights [its only perk in ROF]. You might go over 1600rpm in long steep dives (correction from what I said online, my apologies), but you really have to push her. The problem is, in ROF the Camel can only reach 167km/h if I'm not mistaken and has a worse climb than an Albatros D2. Over here, she reaches 190km/h. So it is a trade off (disregarding historic data). You just have to throttle back or use the blip. 

 

In my opinion, a Camel player should never complain about the Dr1 ? unless it is a serious and docummented bug. She still nerfed, the slowest scout in the FC roster (165km/h I believe?). When flying the Camel, especially who is flying Camels on fumes, should have a clear advantage. Although a good Dr1 pilot can give a Camel a hard time.

Edited March 7, 2020 by SeaW0lf

[Yours_truly_Ace]

Yes, like I wrote in my original post: I sprayed his engine with bullets. I could see the puffs / hits. 
In RoF I have no trouble damaging their engine. 
Something is "off" about FC's bullet physics. 

Also have you tried shooting the ground? 2 tracer rounds come out but I only see 2 puffs on ground. In rise of flight I would see about 10 - 20 puffs from a short burst.
Not every bullet has tracer round.
Looks like FC only calculate the tracer rounds?

[HagarTheHorrible]

3 minutes ago, SeaW0lf said:

Yes, no more shaking planes or folding wings. That's a deal breaker. Reading WWI books and accounts, they often came back with several bullet wholes on the canvas, some broken wood and stuff, sometimes they did not even knew that they were hit. And they would keep on going with their patrols. This is what happens here. Many times I go through a fight, get some hits on the wings and fuselage (you can see them) and I just keep on patrolling because the plane is not affected like it used to be in ROF, when a single burst anywhere on the plane [we would see the canvas wrinkling] you had to return to base because it started shaking. 
  
The Dr1 is always hard to shot down. She's a very compact plane and it easily swirls around its axes. You have to hit that small section of the cockpit / engine, and you also have to account for ping / lag.
  
Regarding the Camel engine, in Flying Circus it was rolled back to pre 2014 flight model. She always had a glass engine. Whoever started playing after November 2014 is accustomed to a severely nerfed Camel (like an 80hp Camel) that can't be over-revved in dogfights [its only perk in ROF]. You might go over 1600rpm in long steep dives (correction from what I said online, my apologies), but you really have to push her. The problem is, in ROF the Camel can only reach 167km/h if I'm not mistaken and has a worse climb than an Albatros D2. Over here, she reaches 190km/h. So it is a trade off (disregarding historic data). You just have to throttle back or use the blip. 

 

In my opinion, a Camel player should never complain about the Dr1 ? unless it is a serious and docummented bug. She still nerfed, the slowest scout in the FC roster (165km/h I believe?). When flying the Camel, especially who is flying Camels on fumes, should have a clear advantage. Although a good Dr1 pilot can give a Camel a hard time.

 

Sometimes, you even get a few holes from your own side  ?, ? ? ?.

1 minute ago, 127Tom said:

Yes, like I wrote in my original post: I sprayed his engine with bullets. I could see the puffs / hits. 
In RoF I have no trouble damaging their engine. 
Something is "off" about FC's bullet physics. 

Also have you tried shooting the ground? 2 tracer rounds come out but I only see 2 puffs on ground. In rise of flight I would see about 10 - 20 puffs from a short burst.
Not every bullet has tracer round.
Looks like FC only calculate the tracer rounds?

 

Can't say I've found the DR 1 to be any tougher than anything else out there, harder to get a bead on when it's flouncing around, yes, but not any tougher.

[SeaW0lf]

4 minutes ago, 127Tom said:

Yes, like I wrote in my original post: I sprayed his engine with bullets. I could see the puffs / hits. 
In RoF I have no trouble damaging their engine. 
Something is "off" about FC's bullet physics. 

Also have you tried shooting the ground? 2 tracer rounds come out but I only see 2 puffs on ground. In rise of flight I would see about 10 - 20 puffs from a short burst.
Not every bullet has tracer round.
Looks like FC only calculate the tracer rounds?

 

 

I have been flying only the Camel and the Dr1 and I haven't noticed anything regarding engines or hits. You might be experiencing lag issues.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

1 hour ago, 127Tom said:

And we went into a turn fight.

 

[Zooropa_Fly]

For what it's worth, I shoot down around half the planes that I can in RoF, with the same no. of rounds. 

 

Meat and metal is the way to go in FC as things stand , wings take daft amounts of punishment. I'm hoping they weaken the DM a little, I can't help think they've over-reacted to RoF's being too frail.

 

Would like to see more visual damage too. One can pound away at wings and see little evidence of one's efforts. It's always great seeing a crate limping home in RoF, smoking, full of holes, struts hanging off etc.

Especially if it's me. 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Dr.1 is tank , tough plane IMHO.

Edited March 7, 2020 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[No.23_Starling]

The one thing it still lacks (and doesnt quite meet historical anecdotes) is fast climb. If you’re above it in a fight in a Spad or SE5 and you are strict with your energy she is very easy meat. My advice is DONT engage it head on. Climb above and toy to your heart’s content.

 

Ive always been fascinated with the eyewitness account of Voss’s last stand vs 56’s pack of aces.

 

What is not beyond doubt though was that she was too slow and phased out by the mighty Dvii.

 

Chaps, don’t engage her from the level and aim for the meat and metal!!

Edited March 7, 2020 by No56_Waggaz

[SeaW0lf]

25 minutes ago, No56_Waggaz said:

Ive always been fascinated with the eyewitness account of Voss’s last stand vs 56’s pack of aces.

 

The fact that she’s still nerfed is the main problem. I'm not sure if the pre 2014 Fokker Dr1 could out-climb the SE5a in dogfights in ROF, but she had some good torque. I remember after the nerfing that it was very dangerous to prop hang with her or go for those steep climbs against BZomers. She always came short. We adapt and come up with some moves [sometimes you guys end up right into our sights], but it is not as fun as it was in the past.

 

But I think that in the Voss fight, they got into a mêlée with him, then a proper 110hp Dr1 would give the impression to rise above the pack I believe. I think it was macCudden who always advised his novices to never engage a Dr1 from the same level or they would not be able to get him off their tails.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

The DR1 before the patch always felt a little too easy to fly for me.

 

I'd love the pre-nerf engine put into my DVIII though.

[No.23_Triggers]

Dr.Is...yeah, they're pretty tough airframes. Pilot's head is much less resilient to machine gun fire though  

 

[US103_Baer]

E. All of the above

 

The Dr1 is a small plane, the critical hit points of pilot/engine are tightly grouped and the rest of the airframe is low on vulnerability by design.

It also manoeuvres in slightly odd ways so a regular sight picture can sometimes be  misleading.

 

However, when the pilot is unaware it can be shotdown as easily as any other aircraft.

As Waggaz points out, you have to be above and stay above the buggers -preferably with a friend. 

Feints and fake-attacks are effective to force him to keep reacting defensively while keeping your altitude.

Climbing left turns are useful against average Dr1 pilots.

 

Bullet physics in FC is way different to RoF. More laser-like with very low dispersion. So it's very hit or miss compared to RoFs 'shotgun' effect.

 

PS.  Head-on attacks are 50/50 at BEST!

Those are terrible odds. Just don't. Fly away and climb above.

Edited March 8, 2020 by US103_Baer

[HagarTheHorrible]

1 hour ago, US103_Baer said:

 

PS.  Head-on attacks are 50/50 at BEST!

Those are terrible odds. Just don't. Fly away and climb above.

 

Absolute ballcocks !

 

You’re right, but also very, very, wrong.  For an accomplished pilot, or one who fears for his life, then you are correct (most of the time).  For FC players the odds of 50/50 are actually pretty good.  If you are in a position of weakness, which can be any of several things, ability, aircraft type, battle damage, altitude then a chance, even if not a killing shot, is far better than no chance at all and even if you don’t kill your opponent in the first pass you might inflict enough damage to tip the scales in your favour.  FC is not to be confused with real death, or peril.  The victory is everything, death or being shot down, inconsequential, by comparison.  That’s why players charge in at long odds or hammer away at their victim, all the while being torn to shreds from behind.

 

Oh, and I’ve tried the “flying away” thing, only to be chased down (in my Camel) pinned in place, while the rabble catch up, but then that is one thing that does ring true to historical accounts.

Edited March 8, 2020 by HagarTheHorrible

[6./ZG26_Loke]

When I fly fighter, I usually fly the Dr. 1. And I get shot down pretty easily, sometimes even by the first burst the enemy fires at me. So no, I do not find the Dr. 1 to be a tuff plane. 

Actually the same goes for the Pe-2. People says it's hard to shoot down, yeah well, not when I fly it. 

[Zooropa_Fly]

4 hours ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

 

Absolute ballcocks !

 

You’re right, but also very, very, wrong.  For an accomplished pilot, or one who fears for his life, then you are correct (most of the time).  For FC players the odds of 50/50 are actually pretty good.  If you are in a position of weakness, which can be any of several things, ability, aircraft type, battle damage, altitude then a chance, even if not a killing shot, is far better than no chance at all and even if you don’t kill your opponent in the first pass you might inflict enough damage to tip the scales in your favour.  FC is not to be confused with real death, or peril.  The victory is everything, death or being shot down, inconsequential, by comparison.  That’s why players charge in at long odds or hammer away at their victim, all the while being torn to shreds from behind.

 

Oh, and I’ve tried the “flying away” thing, only to be chased down (in my Camel) pinned in place, while the rabble catch up, but then that is one thing that does ring true to historical accounts.

 

Is all this not within the context of getting yourself into a terrible position in the first place  ?

Putting yourself into a situation that gives you a 50% chance of death doesn't sound too clever !

[HagarTheHorrible]

1 hour ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

 

Is all this not within the context of getting yourself into a terrible position in the first place  ?

Putting yourself into a situation that gives you a 50% chance of death doesn't sound too clever !

 

Depending on the situation, 50% is a hell of a lot better than 5% - 25% chance of hitting a target that most players achieve.  If I was taking on a well flown D VIIf, in anything Allied, except maybe the Camel, then 50/50 is probably not such a bad choice, that said even the Camel is prone to taking hits in the merge, even if you try your best to complicate the enemies targeting.  If I was flying an Albatros or a D.III, merging with a well flown Camel, then 50/50 still sounds like good odds.  It very much depends on the player, but for many players, when there is no risk to life or limb, and no fear, then 50/50 is possibly as good a odds as they will get in a drawn out knife fight.  If retreat was more of a viable option then 50/50  odds become increasingly poor.

[J5_Konnecke]

6 hours ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

Oh, and I’ve tried the “flying away” thing, only to be chased down (in my Camel) pinned in place, while the rabble catch up, but then that is one thing that does ring true to historical accounts.

  I let my opponents go quite often and very rarely get the same respect in return. As long as they are either too damaged to continue, I can tell they are trying to retreat to preserve their life,  or you fire a white flare for surrender.  The problem with these things if often times I let someone fly away only to see them regain altitude and come back for more.  Then I will kill you without any remorse!  If however my opponent continues the fight by not making any attempts to flee I will also be sure to knock him down.  I have also been shot to complete pieces even though I am touching down or even in a parachute, and it is very frustrating.  I have even been shot down by  the person I just let go who is in a new plane come back and win the fight against me and not let me surrender.  Shooting me till i'm completely dead and a ball of flame on top of that.  I hope the scoring system in IL-2 will continue to persuade people to have respect for the person on the other side of the screen.  I am often awarded those kills that I let go due to engine failure or bad landings.  

 

 The other problem is that in a group fight,  there is little chance you are getting away because everyone wants that little tick on their record for a kill.  One person might let you dive away but it doesn't mean the other two will.  This is why collisions happen most of the time, two people competing for the final shot both sitting behind the opponent and neither caring where the other is.  Amazes me. 

 

S! Konnecke

[76SQN-FatherTed]

34 minutes ago, J5_Konnecke said:

  I let my opponents go quite often and very rarely get the same respect in return. As long as they are either too damaged to continue, I can tell they are trying to retreat to preserve their life,  or you fire a white flare for surrender.  The problem with these things if often times I let someone fly away only to see them regain altitude and come back for more.  Then I will kill you without any remorse!  If however my opponent continues the fight by not making any attempts to flee I will also be sure to knock him down.  I have also been shot to complete pieces even though I am touching down or even in a parachute, and it is very frustrating.  I have even been shot down by  the person I just let go who is in a new plane come back and win the fight against me and not let me surrender.  Shooting me till i'm completely dead and a ball of flame on top of that.  I hope the scoring system in IL-2 will continue to persuade people to have respect for the person on the other side of the screen.  I am often awarded those kills that I let go due to engine failure or bad landings.  

 

 

S! Konnecke

To be fair I think Hagar is talking more about "running away" as a tactical option than being "allowed" to bow out of the fight by a gentlemanly opponent.  IRL pilots and formations would often turn tail if they perceived their situation as not advantageous, so it is widely believed that in RoF/FC we should be able to extend away out of a fight.  IMO, however, those accounts were about things happening before shots were fired.   IRL they had better vision than is afforded us and so tactical decisions could be more easily made prior to engagement.

 

Plus, as you point out,  they had their lives on the line and so would let someone go rather than dive down into enemy territory on their own.

[HagarTheHorrible]

1 hour ago, J5_Konnecke said:

  I let my opponents go quite often and very rarely get the same respect in return. As long as they are either too damaged to continue, I can tell they are trying to retreat to preserve their life,  or you fire a white flare for surrender.  The problem with these things if often times I let someone fly away only to see them regain altitude and come back for more.  Then I will kill you without any remorse!  If however my opponent continues the fight by not making any attempts to flee I will also be sure to knock him down.  I have also been shot to complete pieces even though I am touching down or even in a parachute, and it is very frustrating.  I have even been shot down by  the person I just let go who is in a new plane come back and win the fight against me and not let me surrender.  Shooting me till i'm completely dead and a ball of flame on top of that.  I hope the scoring system in IL-2 will continue to persuade people to have respect for the person on the other side of the screen.  I am often awarded those kills that I let go due to engine failure or bad landings.  

 

 The other problem is that in a group fight,  there is little chance you are getting away because everyone wants that little tick on their record for a kill.  One person might let you dive away but it doesn't mean the other two will.  This is why collisions happen most of the time, two people competing for the final shot both sitting behind the opponent and neither caring where the other is.  Amazes me. 

 

S! Konnecke

 

I agree, although I was actually meaning, trying to fly away before even getting into a fight.  I've assessed a situation, thought better of it, and tried to retreat, but have found myself being run down by D VIIf's, which is a fair challenge, but then find that several johnny come latelys, or team mates, flying a mixed formation, then also pile in.  The advantage of the top dog in FC, the D VIIf, is that if things go sour, it has enough tricks in it's bag to be able to beat a retreat, a tactic Sizzlorr is very adept at, and very sensible to.

 

It's a pity that, aircraft, such as the Albatros and D.III, to name but two, don't accelerate very quickly in a dive, an often used tactic to escape during the Great war.  Even if nothing else was changed in the FM's, it would at least provide another tactic to evade trouble if caught short.

[SeaW0lf]

I agree that we can't reproduce what they lived back then. As well as in WWII, dogfights did not burn to the end. I have a Stark's account of a 60 or 80 furball and he saw three planes down. All of a sudden the sky was clear again and they have retreated. An 80 planes furball here would burn to the end, perhaps with a couple dozen planes surviving the fray.

 

I think the closest we get to that is when you are running on a long streak. Then you might behave more historically than what we do here. But the new FC damage model and the parser, with captured pilot, gives it another level of realism. Those balloon kills and the run back to the lines resemble Red Baron, which was a blast back then. The other day I had a tough dogfight at the other side of the mud but I got back to my airfield, even with the fuel tank punctured. The satisfaction of bringing the plane back and not awarding a kill is very rewarding.

[US103_Baer]

21 hours ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

 

Absolute ballcocks !

 

You’re right, but also very, very, wrong.  For an accomplished pilot, or one who fears for his life, then you are correct (most of the time).  For FC players the odds of 50/50 are actually pretty good.  If you are in a position of weakness, which can be any of several things, ability, aircraft type, battle damage, altitude then a chance, even if not a killing shot, is far better than no chance at all and even if you don’t kill your opponent in the first pass you might inflict enough damage to tip the scales in your favour.  FC is not to be confused with real death, or peril.  The victory is everything, death or being shot down, inconsequential, by comparison.  That’s why players charge in at long odds or hammer away at their victim, all the while being torn to shreds from behind.

 

Oh, and I’ve tried the “flying away” thing, only to be chased down (in my Camel) pinned in place, while the rabble catch up, but then that is one thing that does ring true to historical accounts.

 I guess we play different games. That's ok. Carry on

[J2_Trupobaw]

Yesterday we had couple of USAS pilots fly onto our side, gather a following of 7+ German planes, fight for few minutes then dive away safely. No fatalities or captures on either side AFAIK, although  planes on both sides (myself included) dived away, some damaged enough to count as victory.

 

Half an hour later we had another fight with the same people, and this time we did a head on. We both knew what we were doing, we were both in sturdy, stable gun platforms; both able to soak damage and avoid collision. Then a lag collision happened anyway because,  it did, and I suddenly found myself unconcious in wingless plane. My opponent went unscatched (so lag happened on my side).

Edited March 9, 2020 by J2_Trupobaw

[HagarTheHorrible]

4 hours ago, US103_Baer said:

 I guess we play different games. That's ok. Carry on

 

You are right, it's just that I think their are aspects of the game that differ from "actually being there", piloting a real aircraft and risking real flesh and bone.  Because it's possible to shoot at quite long distances, for quite a length of time, in the sim,  during a head on merge, it can be difficult to evade without taking a few shots, by a determind foe.  It might be argued that it is as well to risk taking a few shots while shooting back.  The real question is, at what distance does a head on merge become more dangerous than the risk of taking a few shots and losing positional advantage while evading ?  If you both fear collision, or being killed in a head on attack, then both aircraft will evade, unless in a desperate situation, but when neither side risks losing, what they might lose anyway, then the advantage goes to the pilot who sticks to his guns, rather than the sensible one.

 

Ideally, we would never put ourselves into a head on merge, just like in real life, but in the game you end up playing against players who are not constrained by real world considerations and the game has to be played accordingly, to the best of our ability and to our own sensebilities as to how authentic we would like to try and make it.

 

That said, it brings a smile to my face, when I see other players taxi over to the hangers, after landing, and park up, rather than just spawning out at the first opportunity.  I'm not the only one ?

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Ramming during a head-on is just an idiot maneuver.  With these planes, you can easily close to the side of the other guy, and use rudder to align for good shots.  If you drive your aircraft straight and narrow at the other guy like a missile and end up ramming him, you're just being an A-hole.

[HagarTheHorrible]

8 minutes ago, J28w-Broccoli said:

Ramming during a head-on is just an idiot maneuver.  With these planes, you can easily close to the side of the other guy, and use rudder to align for good shots.  If you drive your aircraft straight and narrow at the other guy like a missile and end up ramming him, you're just being an A-hole.

 

At what point does a head on merge become suicidal ramming, 400 meters, 200, 100, 50 meters ?  I would imagine, most people do not intentionally ram.  Yes an awful lot hang on too long, to the absolute last second, but sometimes what we see, from our position, is not what the game, or the other player sees, split second decisions are dificult to take when we all might be seeing a different split second  I always chuckle, a little, about people who complain about head on ramming, because it is always avoidable, by the person who complains, because they must have been involved and thought,their skill and ability, meant that it was the other persons fault.  I have certainly had (not head on) times when, in a close in knife fight ,I have flown clear of an opponent only to have my aircraft disintergrate "WTF just happened" before it dawns on me that lag was responsable.

[ZachariasX]

42 minutes ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

At what point does a head on merge become suicidal ramming, 400 meters, 200, 100, 50 meters ?

Upon contact. Before it is, as you say, a head on merge. Afterwards, heads merge.

 

42 minutes ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

because it is always avoidable

Pierre Clostermann got shot down over the Channel just because he for once was weary of the chicken game. He placed that 109 on his 11 o'clock position (as recommended these days by some forists). And *pooff* his wing was gone. But his raft worked and Jaques was circling overhead until a Walrus picked him up. That was the last time he chickened out of a merge.

Edited March 9, 2020 by ZachariasX

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

His wing was gone instead of his fuselage.  If you play the chicken game, it isn't a matter of if, but when.

 

As to it always being avoidable, there are players who will still happily spear an opponent like a guided missile even when that opponent is bearing 11 oclock.  That isn't even to mention close dogfights where some pilots will outright T-bone an opponent.  Avoidable indeed.

 

If you believe that for you, as a sim pilot, *every* collision is avoidable; chances are you're the one flying like an A-hole.  ?

Edited March 9, 2020 by J28w-Broccoli

[No.23_Triggers]

22 hours ago, J5_Konnecke said:

  I let my opponents go quite often and very rarely get the same respect in return. 

Fly and fight respectfully at your own peril! I very rarely see any courtesy in the air. Shoot to kill, stop when they're dead....that seems to be the M.O in most cases I've seen. Guaranteed kills don't seem to sway people either - I've been wheels-down in the mud with a stopped prop and still been strafed to death. C'est la Guerre! 
 

 

21 hours ago, SeaW0lf said:

I agree that we can't reproduce what they lived back then. As well as in WWII, dogfights did not burn to the end. I have a Stark's account of a 60 or 80 furball and he saw three planes down. All of a sudden the sky was clear again and they have retreated. An 80 planes furball here would burn to the end, perhaps with a couple dozen planes surviving the fray.

 

I think the closest we get to that is when you are running on a long streak. Then you might behave more historically than what we do here. But the new FC damage model and the parser, with captured pilot, gives it another level of realism. Those balloon kills and the run back to the lines resemble Red Baron, which was a blast back then. The other day I had a tough dogfight at the other side of the mud but I got back to my airfield, even with the fuel tank punctured. The satisfaction of bringing the plane back and not awarding a kill is very rewarding.

Back in RoF both the 103rd and JG1 used to have a "Dead is Dead" scoreboard where we'd track v-life kills, flying hours, etc, and we'd do our best not to die. I used to love fighting JG1 because we had, from what I've read in the real-life pilot memoirs, some of the most realistic furballs I've seen in RoF....

...two formations of 6-8 planes merge, there's a big shootout for about 30 seconds, all the survivors dive home. It was really cool, and we had a lot of fights where everyone flew home at the end! 


On Sunday me and a wingman spotted a flight of fifteen or sixteen Fokkers...although outnumbered roughly 8 to 1 we dove in on them and tried to down as many as possible....I was on 47 kills when we did that, and lemme tell you it was scary!!! I love playing the 'V-Life Game', I think it adds so much more to the sim  

Edited March 9, 2020 by US93_Larner

[HagarTheHorrible]

1 hour ago, J28w-Broccoli said:

His wing was gone instead of his fuselage.  If you play the chicken game, it isn't a matter of if, but when.

 

As to it always being avoidable, there are players who will still happily spear an opponent like a guided missile even when that opponent is bearing 11 oclock.  That isn't even to mention close dogfights where some pilots will outright T-bone an opponent.  Avoidable indeed.

 

If you believe that for you, as a sim pilot, *every* collision is avoidable; chances are you're the one flying like an A-hole.  ?

 

Until you can instil a level or fear, or fear of death, then, almost everyone will push their luck as far as they can.  If you lose a fight, because you refuse to play the game rather than accept that it what it is, then you lose. You can get as sniffy about it as you like, fair or not, but you can’t stop people from chancing their arm, if it isn’t really their arm that they’re risking.  Collisions, lag related or misjudgement will always happen, because battles are hard fought, often in close proximity to one another without either a sense of presence or good peripheral vision.  Deliberate ramming, of one plane into another, rather than pushing the limit, that is a different matter, but I haven’t seen any of that.  Two opponents colliding, well that’s usually bad luck, colliding friendlies,  while trying to desperately shoot down a single enemy, well that really is just bad manners and as you say is flying like a A-hole.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

It's very simple.  Most of us who have been playing these games a long time have noticed that certain players are rarely involved in collisions; while others are involved often.

 

How you take that is up to you.

[BraveSirRobin]

19 minutes ago, J28w-Broccoli said:

It's very simple.  Most of us who have been playing these games a long time have noticed that certain players are rarely involved in collisions; while others are involved often.

 

How you take that is up to you.

^^^ This!  And the people who talk about “it takes 2 for a collision” are probably saying that because they always seem to end up in collisions.

[HagarTheHorrible]

44 minutes ago, J28w-Broccoli said:

It's very simple.  Most of us who have been playing these games a long time have noticed that certain players are rarely involved in collisions; while others are involved often.

 

How you take that is up to you.

 

So you do agree then, it’s entirely possible to make strategic and tactical choices to avoid colliding with other aircraft.

27 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

^^^ This!  And the people who talk about “it takes 2 for a collision” are probably saying that because they always seem to end up in collisions.

 

Errrrrrr ?  Two people who fly head to head, cannot complain if the other player flies into them.  They both made a conscious decision to try and shoot the other down, face to face, accepting the risks involved.  If the other player pushes it too far then the player who thinks that head on attacks are stupid should have known better and pulled out sooner, or simply just not accepted the challenge.  More fool them.   

 

Collisions during knife fights, especially multi aircraft, are to be expected, it was true in 1918, it is even truer in FC.   If you don’t like head on collisions then don’t accept head on fights, manoeuvre away, it really isn’t rocket science.  If you find yourself constantly in head on confrontations (?) then rethink your approach or tactical choices, don’t complain because the other bugger is doing the same as you.  Don’t go head to head, don’t get involved in furballs, if a friendly starts cramping your style and getting in the way, back off, find another target, there’s always tomorrow and  there’s plenty of willing targets to be found.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

Enjoy your collisions, bro.

[HagarTheHorrible]

6 minutes ago, J28w-Broccoli said:

Enjoy your collisions, bro.

 

No.  But I’m not going to get overly upset by them either.

[No.23_Triggers]

Collisions, head-on or otherwise, are pretty avoidable in general if you just use some common sense. Don't wait until the last second to move out of the way, don't try and pull hard for an angle you can't make*, don't try and get in on a plane that has a 'turny' aircraft on its six, etc etc. 

Only times I really feel in danger of a collision is if I find an EA forcing a head-on I didn't expect or when I'm in the centre of a big furball with lots of turny planes...

Edit* I see a lot of pilots doing this, and it's pretty frustrating. Back in RoF, Mamochka was the king of this idiot manoeuvre....

Edited March 9, 2020 by US93_Larner

[NO.20_W_M_Thomson]

2 hours ago, US93_Larner said:

 I see a lot of pilots doing this, and it's pretty frustrating. Back in RoF, Mamochka was the king of this idiot manoeuvre..

He did that mostly when you shoot him down, comes back and rams you to get even. 

I try my hardest not to get in a position to collide, I'll turn off way before it comes to that, for the most part I'm in the Bristol with a single gun in the front so there's really no chance of me winning a head to head, I admit in the ROF days I could be careless, I'm not a pro pilot like most of you, Hell ROF was my first computer game really, Most of you guys have been flying way longer than I have and I have learnt to stay away from head to head combats, Plus you get tired of being called a rammer even when you know it's not all your fault, Usually it's the pilot who accuses others of ramming, And a lot of it is lag collisions, guys with 150 ping going against another with the same or higher ping, I see all the time, they don't look like their any were near a collision but boom they collide. Then one has to make the other feel like shit. I've had guys collide into the side of me then blame me for it, SMFH, what ever.

[Yours_truly_Ace]

Mamokcha still play RoF multiplayer to this day. Log on any of the NFF servers and he will most likely be on.
Ramming, vulching and shooting landing planes. 

He got banned by one of the NFF servers a week ago. He was constantly ramming one of the NFF guys who flew the boat plane.

Though I got to love the guy and I know how to shoot him down; just stay above him always and dive in on him take potshots. 
He use about 5 % fuel so his Fokker DVIIF only last about 20 seconds after  he is smoking. 

I hope Mamochka joins FC. Will be hilarious to hear all the complaints about ramming (me included).