New DM

[DD_Arthur]

11 hours ago, Dakpilot said:

7 pages of discussion 

 

1 single post in bug reports FM and Damage model section.. 

 

 

Now eight pages of mostly nonsense.

 

Something is clearly not right since this weeks update.  All the speculation as to why is moot.  We just need to provide evidence of what is happening within the game right now.

The 'community' - god 'elp us! - needs to  provide useful ingame video or credible statistics  to post in Gamecock's bug report or produce something that the beta-testers can replicate and the devs can look at.

 

Thats it.

[Knarley-Bob]

Whom ever it is, who can move posts to the "right" place, could possibly head this herd to the "right" place ? Perhaps a moderator or someone else of esteem?

 

Just a thought,

 

KB

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

I really like to read this first person account, from that you can tell how much things is missing in current stimulation and how much there is room for improvement in the future.

 

Some citation which include description of plane damage from that period.

 

A great deal of an aeroplane could be holed without affecting its ability to fly. Wings and fuselage could be, and often were, pierced in fifty places, missing the occupants by inches (blissfully unaware of how close it had come until they returned to base). Then the sailmaker would carefully cover each hole with a square inch of Irish linen frayed at the edges and with a brushful of dope make our aircraft ‘serviceable’ again within an hour. I have had bullets through my engine, bullets through my tanks, bullets through my windscreen and up through the floor of the cockpit between my knees and out over my shoulder and even, on one occasion, had the control stick knocked out of my hand by a splinter of wood chipped off the floorboards by a chance shot – yet never, such is the mystery of destiny, that one bullet which would have been enough to settle my account.

50 Lieutenant Cecil Lewis, 56 Squadron, RFC

 

 

Just behind our front line I turned and flew up and down for about ten minutes trying to locate my target, the weather was awful and we flew for minutes at a time in thick mist with everything blotted out from view, my passenger meanwhile sitting in a most hopeless state of ‘wind up’. At last I managed to spot the target and then turned back to our battery and called them up, they were very smart and got their ground strips out in no time. The weather cleared a bit and the clouds went up to about 200 feet so we got to work. The battery shot well, after the first few shots we got right on the spot and fairly hammered the target. To observe each shot I had to go right over the Hun front line and on each trip he let go at us with machine guns and ‘Archie’, in addition to this our own guns were shooting hard and we got shell bumps every few seconds. After I had observed twenty-six shots and was over the lines doing the twenty-seventh there was a bang and a ping of a bullet came through the plane and carried away one of the main flying wires. This was rather a serious business for when one wire goes it puts extra strain on the others and they are liable to snap like carrots with the result that the wing comes off. By this time my observer was beyond hope and waved his arms feebly in the direction of home. I sent ‘C.I.’ to the battery meaning ‘going home’ and flew back over them – they put out ‘V’ which meant observe for salvo fire, there was such a general look of disappointment at me chucking the job that I really couldn’t leave them, so I turned back to the lines and observed twenty-four salvos for them which were right on the spot and then I came in. My passenger’s eyes came right out of his head and flattened against the glasses in his goggles when he saw me turn back to the lines with the broken wire. The CO strafed me first of all for not coming in immediately the wire broke and then complimented me for carrying on, at which I was mightily pleased. I do hope this observer will not be sent up with me again, it won’t be his fault if he is for I fairly opened my heart to him after we landed.

61 Second Lieutenant Charles Smart, 16 Squadron, RFC

 

 

I carried out my original plan of attacking the centre machine, noticing, as I did so, that Harvey-Kelly had apparently accounted for two Huns and was pretty busy with four or five more. I joined battle a second or two later, our position at that time being somewhere over Epincy. I didn’t see Harvey-Kelly again, as I was fully occupied with my little bunch and carried on a running fight until, over Douai, my gun jammed. I made a rapid examination and found my cursed drum had forced a double feed, so that there was nothing to be done except get away. I ‘split-arsed’ to get toward our lines, when they managed to hole my main tank, which, being under my feet, was force-fed into the engine. Of course, the moment the pressure was released, my engine stopped, and as it stopped on the turn, I stalled and spun. I got her out of the spin almost immediately, switched on to my gravity tank, and dived to pick up my engine, but in doing so I naturally lost a bit of height and cooled my engine to such an extent that she wouldn’t give me full revolutions, so that I was now much slower than my opponents, in addition to being below them. I held my bus down to keep up speed and steered for our lines, but very soon had four of the enemy on my tail – at least one was on my tail, one above, and one on each side behind. They made pretty good shooting and managed to shoot away all my instruments and most of my struts and flying wires, so that, before long, I was practically flying a monoplane, as my bottom plane was flapping. I was now down to about 300 feet off the ground, when they holed my gravity tank, and my engine stopped for good. I made a good landing just behind Oppy Wood about a kilometre short of the line, and while the Huns on the ground were running up to secure me, I endeavoured to fire my bus. During this time, however, the four Huns in the air (one of them was Richthofen’s brother, flying a red-nosed Albatros) continued firing at me.

192 Lieutenant W. N. Hamilton, 19 Squadron, RFC

 

We became sitting ducks for the German gunners who took immediate advantage of the target we presented. Within a minute there was an almighty bang right underneath our aircraft which was tossed upwards and then fell like an express lift. Recovering from the shock, I looked round and saw that Atkinson seemed to be OK, then took a quick look round for damage. There were countless holes in the fabric of the wings and fuselage, not necessarily dangerous, and several of the inter-wing straining wires were cut - but they must have been merely landing wires, not flying wires, as the wings showed no signs of collapsing. Far more serious was water coming out from a hole near the top of our radiator, and a thin stream of petrol coming back above our heads from a small hole in the gravity tank set in the top of our centre section. The petrol was pumped up into this tank by a small air screw operated pump, passing by gravity into the engine. I also looked round for the rest of our formation, could not see them at first, then looked up to find them a good 1,000 feet above us. I reported to Atkinson, whom I saw was straining like mad at the control column. He yelled, ‘The bloody stick’s jammed, I can’t move it!’

70 Second Lieutenant John Blanford, 206 Squadron

 

My machine engaged three of the enemy. One circling in front, one coming from top and rear and one from beneath to the rear. My observer fired about thirty rounds at the front HA at about 25 yards range and it fell in flames. He motioned to me to pull up the nose of the machine and then engaged the top rear machine. This was evidently hit and dropped out of the fight. At the same time the bottom rear machine fired a heavy burst from below. My observer fell over and the rear gun, instruments, etc., were all hit. The left aileron control snapped at the control lever and I dived for our lines, side-slipping to avoid further shots. I crossed the Hindenburg Line at 500 feet and landed. I was followed down by the remaining HA to within 100 feet of the ground, but it was driven off by rifle and machine-gun fire from our lines. The machine was at once brought under enemy machine-gun and artillery fire, but a detachment of the Border Regiment secured the body of my observer who had been killed instantaneously.

199 Second Lieutenant G. H. S. Dinsmore, 18 Squadron, RFC

 

I was watching the ground for the arrivals of our shells when a burst of machine gun-fire came to my ear directly behind me. I turned quickly and stood up to man the rear gun. I was too late. The red Albatros had continued its dive downward just in back of our tail and was way out of range. He was away in the flash of an eye. I saw two others swing by, so I knew that at least three of them had dived on us from above and behind. They had taken us quite by surprise. We were quite low – not over 3,000 feet, I believe, and ‘Archie’ had been giving us some close attention. Our plane dove straight down, so that, standing up as I was in the forward seat, the back of my neck was to the ground and my face to the sky. I pulled back into the seat and looked into the pilot’s box. Poor old Follitt had sort of crumpled up and fallen forward on the stick. I couldn’t see his face, but I knew that some of that first burst had hit him. His body on the stick sent the plane down in a steep dive. He must have rolled off it, however, because we seemed to straighten out once or twice. It had only been a comparatively few seconds since that first burst, but here was the red Hun scout back in position again just behind and above my tail. I fired round after round from the gun attached to the upper plane, but, as our machine was out of control, I couldn’t aim well. The red plane just hung on my tail and kept firing all the time. We were going down at a frightful rate. There was a dual-control stick in my seat which I might have rigged and pulled her out of the dive, but that would have meant turning my back to the Hun scout’s machine gun, and I should have got it the same as Follitt. I figured everything was over but the final fadeout, so I just stuck to the rear gun and fired away at him in the hope I might get him also. Apparently not a chance. I emptied the entire drum without effect. The red scout stuck right there on the tail, and his two machine guns were pumping lead all the time. I had a number of bullet splashes in my face and hands. The sleeves and shoulders of my flying jacket had several dozen holes through them and then one bullet hit the barrel of the machine gun right under my nose. I remember looking over my shoulder, and the ground didn’t seem over 10 feet away. I closed my eyes and said, ‘Goodnight!’ I had seen it happen before. But luck was with me. The plane hit a clump of small trees in the German big gun positions. I woke up while German gunners were cutting me out of the wreckage. The first thing I heard was Follitt’s voice, ‘God, we’re on fire!’ he shouted weakly. I think he must have been unconscious and raving. The tanks had split wide open and petrol was over us and everything, but no fire started, although the wireless key had not been switched off. I was pretty well shaken and sore all over, but aside from cuts and bruises and the bullet splashes on my face, I was all right.

185 Lieutenant Frederick Kirkham, 13 Squadron, RFC

 

 

 

 

[No.23_Gaylion]

But YOU weren't there....

 

?

[J5_Gamecock]

This is good stuff Husar.. Thx for posting.

[No.23_Triggers]

Great stuff, Husar. For some additional context that I feel is important: 

Cecil Lewis - S.E.5. 
W.N. Hamilton - SPAD VII 

John Blandford - Airco DH9

 

 

 

[JG1_Butzzell]

On 4/11/2020 at 7:50 PM, Hellequin13 said:

The point of biplanes having the lower wing was not for lift, but for structural integrity. The main vector of force applied to the wings (by lift) is in an upward direction, against the downward vector (of gravity) at the fuselage, which creates torque on the spars at the root of the wing. The lower wing generates considerably less lift than the upper wing (due to interference of the air flow over the upper wing) so there is less torque applied to the  lower spar. Tie the upper wing to the lower with struts and in some cases bracing wire, and you strengthen the upper wing against the torque forces.

 

 

The structure of the wing either lower or upper is insufficient to support itself.  The support is in the steel wires. When on the ground and no lift is generated the wings, the wires from the top of the cabane struts to the outer end of the lower wing supports both wings. These are called landing wires.  They prevent the wings from snapping and falling down.   When in flight, the lift generated by the wings is carried through the wire from the outer part of the top wing to the lower part of the fuselage. These are called Flying wires. They prevent the lift created from snapping the wings up.   No wires, no wings.  When putting the wings on the plane, they must be supported until the wires are in place and tensioned.

Edited April 13, 2020 by JG1_Butzzell

[No.23_Triggers]

39 minutes ago, JG1_Butzzell said:

No wires, no wings.  When putting the wings on the plane, they must be supported until the wires are in place and tensioned.

So in the case of Capt. Biddle's memoir, in which the SPAD pilot dove out so hard he stretched the tension out of his wires and his wings were warped backwards, and in the case of W.N. Hamilton, when he claims his SPAD VII's wires and struts were shot out and his lower wings were 'flapping'....narrator embellishment, one-off, SPADs remarkably tough, or something else? 

 

I've also noticed during SP testing, throwing planes through their paces, that the S.E. and Alb seem generally more prone to wing-shedding without prior damage and under the same Gs as pre-patch. Hunter also seems to think the SPAD is weaker, too. Perhaps it's my imagination...

 

Edited April 13, 2020 by US93_Larner

[J37_Spyboy]

I have said before. We in our virtual battles, fun, can only read accounts like these with awe and respect for the bravery of the young pilots from all sides. Thanks for finding this Husar. Salute.

[No.23_Gaylion]

Weird, I commented elsewhere on "fun" being a part of the aspect and was scoffed at. Realism and simulation trumps all...

[SeaW0lf]

4 hours ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

I really like to read this first person account, from that you can tell how much things is missing in current stimulation and how much there is room for improvement in the future.

 

Some citation which include description of plane damage from that period.

 

A great deal of an aeroplane could be holed without affecting its ability to fly. Wings and fuselage could be, and often were, pierced in fifty places, missing the occupants by inches (blissfully unaware of how close it had come until they returned to base). Then the sailmaker would carefully cover each hole with a square inch of Irish linen frayed at the edges and with a brushful of dope make our aircraft ‘serviceable’ again within an hour. I have had bullets through my engine, bullets through my tanks, bullets through my windscreen and up through the floor of the cockpit between my knees and out over my shoulder and even, on one occasion, had the control stick knocked out of my hand by a splinter of wood chipped off the floorboards by a chance shot – yet never, such is the mystery of destiny, that one bullet which would have been enough to settle my account.

50 Lieutenant Cecil Lewis, 56 Squadron, RFC

 

 

Just behind our front line I turned and flew up and down for about ten minutes trying to locate my target, the weather was awful and we flew for minutes at a time in thick mist with everything blotted out from view, my passenger meanwhile sitting in a most hopeless state of ‘wind up’. At last I managed to spot the target and then turned back to our battery and called them up, they were very smart and got their ground strips out in no time. The weather cleared a bit and the clouds went up to about 200 feet so we got to work. The battery shot well, after the first few shots we got right on the spot and fairly hammered the target. To observe each shot I had to go right over the Hun front line and on each trip he let go at us with machine guns and ‘Archie’, in addition to this our own guns were shooting hard and we got shell bumps every few seconds. After I had observed twenty-six shots and was over the lines doing the twenty-seventh there was a bang and a ping of a bullet came through the plane and carried away one of the main flying wires. This was rather a serious business for when one wire goes it puts extra strain on the others and they are liable to snap like carrots with the result that the wing comes off. By this time my observer was beyond hope and waved his arms feebly in the direction of home. I sent ‘C.I.’ to the battery meaning ‘going home’ and flew back over them – they put out ‘V’ which meant observe for salvo fire, there was such a general look of disappointment at me chucking the job that I really couldn’t leave them, so I turned back to the lines and observed twenty-four salvos for them which were right on the spot and then I came in. My passenger’s eyes came right out of his head and flattened against the glasses in his goggles when he saw me turn back to the lines with the broken wire. The CO strafed me first of all for not coming in immediately the wire broke and then complimented me for carrying on, at which I was mightily pleased. I do hope this observer will not be sent up with me again, it won’t be his fault if he is for I fairly opened my heart to him after we landed.

61 Second Lieutenant Charles Smart, 16 Squadron, RFC

 

 

I carried out my original plan of attacking the centre machine, noticing, as I did so, that Harvey-Kelly had apparently accounted for two Huns and was pretty busy with four or five more. I joined battle a second or two later, our position at that time being somewhere over Epincy. I didn’t see Harvey-Kelly again, as I was fully occupied with my little bunch and carried on a running fight until, over Douai, my gun jammed. I made a rapid examination and found my cursed drum had forced a double feed, so that there was nothing to be done except get away. I ‘split-arsed’ to get toward our lines, when they managed to hole my main tank, which, being under my feet, was force-fed into the engine. Of course, the moment the pressure was released, my engine stopped, and as it stopped on the turn, I stalled and spun. I got her out of the spin almost immediately, switched on to my gravity tank, and dived to pick up my engine, but in doing so I naturally lost a bit of height and cooled my engine to such an extent that she wouldn’t give me full revolutions, so that I was now much slower than my opponents, in addition to being below them. I held my bus down to keep up speed and steered for our lines, but very soon had four of the enemy on my tail – at least one was on my tail, one above, and one on each side behind. They made pretty good shooting and managed to shoot away all my instruments and most of my struts and flying wires, so that, before long, I was practically flying a monoplane, as my bottom plane was flapping. I was now down to about 300 feet off the ground, when they holed my gravity tank, and my engine stopped for good. I made a good landing just behind Oppy Wood about a kilometre short of the line, and while the Huns on the ground were running up to secure me, I endeavoured to fire my bus. During this time, however, the four Huns in the air (one of them was Richthofen’s brother, flying a red-nosed Albatros) continued firing at me.

192 Lieutenant W. N. Hamilton, 19 Squadron, RFC

 

We became sitting ducks for the German gunners who took immediate advantage of the target we presented. Within a minute there was an almighty bang right underneath our aircraft which was tossed upwards and then fell like an express lift. Recovering from the shock, I looked round and saw that Atkinson seemed to be OK, then took a quick look round for damage. There were countless holes in the fabric of the wings and fuselage, not necessarily dangerous, and several of the inter-wing straining wires were cut - but they must have been merely landing wires, not flying wires, as the wings showed no signs of collapsing. Far more serious was water coming out from a hole near the top of our radiator, and a thin stream of petrol coming back above our heads from a small hole in the gravity tank set in the top of our centre section. The petrol was pumped up into this tank by a small air screw operated pump, passing by gravity into the engine. I also looked round for the rest of our formation, could not see them at first, then looked up to find them a good 1,000 feet above us. I reported to Atkinson, whom I saw was straining like mad at the control column. He yelled, ‘The bloody stick’s jammed, I can’t move it!’

70 Second Lieutenant John Blanford, 206 Squadron

 

My machine engaged three of the enemy. One circling in front, one coming from top and rear and one from beneath to the rear. My observer fired about thirty rounds at the front HA at about 25 yards range and it fell in flames. He motioned to me to pull up the nose of the machine and then engaged the top rear machine. This was evidently hit and dropped out of the fight. At the same time the bottom rear machine fired a heavy burst from below. My observer fell over and the rear gun, instruments, etc., were all hit. The left aileron control snapped at the control lever and I dived for our lines, side-slipping to avoid further shots. I crossed the Hindenburg Line at 500 feet and landed. I was followed down by the remaining HA to within 100 feet of the ground, but it was driven off by rifle and machine-gun fire from our lines. The machine was at once brought under enemy machine-gun and artillery fire, but a detachment of the Border Regiment secured the body of my observer who had been killed instantaneously.

199 Second Lieutenant G. H. S. Dinsmore, 18 Squadron, RFC

 

I was watching the ground for the arrivals of our shells when a burst of machine gun-fire came to my ear directly behind me. I turned quickly and stood up to man the rear gun. I was too late. The red Albatros had continued its dive downward just in back of our tail and was way out of range. He was away in the flash of an eye. I saw two others swing by, so I knew that at least three of them had dived on us from above and behind. They had taken us quite by surprise. We were quite low – not over 3,000 feet, I believe, and ‘Archie’ had been giving us some close attention. Our plane dove straight down, so that, standing up as I was in the forward seat, the back of my neck was to the ground and my face to the sky. I pulled back into the seat and looked into the pilot’s box. Poor old Follitt had sort of crumpled up and fallen forward on the stick. I couldn’t see his face, but I knew that some of that first burst had hit him. His body on the stick sent the plane down in a steep dive. He must have rolled off it, however, because we seemed to straighten out once or twice. It had only been a comparatively few seconds since that first burst, but here was the red Hun scout back in position again just behind and above my tail. I fired round after round from the gun attached to the upper plane, but, as our machine was out of control, I couldn’t aim well. The red plane just hung on my tail and kept firing all the time. We were going down at a frightful rate. There was a dual-control stick in my seat which I might have rigged and pulled her out of the dive, but that would have meant turning my back to the Hun scout’s machine gun, and I should have got it the same as Follitt. I figured everything was over but the final fadeout, so I just stuck to the rear gun and fired away at him in the hope I might get him also. Apparently not a chance. I emptied the entire drum without effect. The red scout stuck right there on the tail, and his two machine guns were pumping lead all the time. I had a number of bullet splashes in my face and hands. The sleeves and shoulders of my flying jacket had several dozen holes through them and then one bullet hit the barrel of the machine gun right under my nose. I remember looking over my shoulder, and the ground didn’t seem over 10 feet away. I closed my eyes and said, ‘Goodnight!’ I had seen it happen before. But luck was with me. The plane hit a clump of small trees in the German big gun positions. I woke up while German gunners were cutting me out of the wreckage. The first thing I heard was Follitt’s voice, ‘God, we’re on fire!’ he shouted weakly. I think he must have been unconscious and raving. The tanks had split wide open and petrol was over us and everything, but no fire started, although the wireless key had not been switched off. I was pretty well shaken and sore all over, but aside from cuts and bruises and the bullet splashes on my face, I was all right.

185 Lieutenant Frederick Kirkham, 13 Squadron, RFC

 

 

[DD_Arthur]

5 hours ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

I really like to read this first person account, from that you can tell how much things is missing in current stimulation and how much there is room for improvement in the future.

 

An interesting read but absolutely no help whatsoever to the current problem with the damage model.

 

 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

17 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

 

An interesting read but absolutely no help whatsoever to the current problem with the damage model.

 

 

 

You should not assume that,  because I did not in first place. Only devs can fix the problem we just said ours opinions. We can't help with that , we can help find some useful materials on  the subject.

[No.23_Triggers]

Gotta be honest...this new DM has really killed FC for me. 

[No.23_Starling]

4 minutes ago, US93_Larner said:

Gotta be honest...this new DM has really killed FC for me. 

For any BnZer life has just got much harder. It’s bad enough dealing with DviiFs up high who never leave their lines ?

[J5_Gamecock]

24 minutes ago, US93_Larner said:

Gotta be honest...this new DM has really killed FC for me. 

 I'm not far behind you.  Although I've had a decent sortie or two in the DVII.

 

 I miss my beloved Albatros however. I just won't get in it now....

[JG1_Butzzell]

5 hours ago, US93_Larner said:

So in the case of Capt. Biddle's memoir, in which the SPAD pilot dove out so hard he stretched the tension out of his wires and his wings were warped backwards, and in the case of W.N. Hamilton, when he claims his SPAD VII's wires and struts were shot out and his lower wings were 'flapping'....narrator embellishment, one-off, SPADs remarkably tough, or something else? 

 

Many planes lost LOWER wings and were able to keep flying.  The wires going from the bottom of the Fuselage to the outer area of the upper wing were still intact or even stretched a bit.  Outer struts keep the lower wing from folding upwards and transfer the lift force to the upper wing and then down through the wire to the fuselage.

 

I am not aware of any plane losing an upper wing and still remain flying or under control. The N-28 thing was a leading edge separation. Which destroyed the lift on the upper wing. The control surfaces were on the lower wing and actuated by torque tubes. Many pilots survived the event and were able to make controlled landings/ditch.

 

There are instances of Alb D 3 completely losing a lower wing and still remain flying or at least in a form of a controlled landing/ditch in which the pilot survived. In this case the control cables ran through the upper wing. When the Alb DVa came out with control wires in the lower wing, many pilots had a sincere concern.

[DD_Arthur]

1 hour ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

we can help find some useful materials on  the subject.

 

You are right but do you really think Petrov will be reading the wall of text you posted?  Do you think it will help him adjust the algorithm of the damage model for Flying Circus?

 

We need to establish whether this is effecting the Albatross more than other planes or is it a general,  unrealistic change to all aircraft.  Got a track of a DVII being hit by a short burst and it's wing coming away after gentle maneuvering?  We need to show there is an obvious problem.

 

23 minutes ago, US93_Larner said:

Gotta be honest...this new DM has really killed FC for me. 

 

Exactly!  We know Petrov and the devs are aware of concerns over Flying Circus and will take a look.

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/13303-обсуждение-версии-4005-новая-модель-повреждений-планера-самолёта/?do=findComment&comment=765983

 

 We need to show them what the problem is. We can do this here and by adding to Gamecocks bug report.

 

[US103_Hunter]

On 4/10/2020 at 2:42 PM, SeaW0lf said:

Has anyone tested ROF's improved gunnery? It is pretty similar to what we have now. The breaking point on the top wing of the Albatros Dva is the same, in between the first and second rib after the crescent moon cutout of the pilot. The bottom wing also detaches from the fuselage in both models.
 

 

When I first started testing the new patch I had to go check my settings because I swore improved gunnery was on?

[ZachariasX]

1 minute ago, DD_Arthur said:

Got a track of a DVII being hit by a short burst and it's wing coming away after gentle maneuvering?  We need to show there is an obvious problem.

 

What it comes down to is that in FC each bullet progressively weakens the WHOLE wing.

 

In the Bristol it is about one an a half clips of asingle Lewis to bring static strenght of the wings down from, say, 6 g to <1 g. This is just nonsense as it doesn‘t matter where on the wing you hit.

 

If you want, you can make sn experiment which best case the devs know better than us already, namely running TACview and show that, after half the rounds needed for making wings collapse in level flight, strenght would be reduced from 6 g to 3 g. But it is just showing the devs you knowing what they know already.

 

I think the probem we have is that we really should ask for revised hitboxes and not adjusting rounds needed to make the whole wing go of regardless where you hit.

[No.23_Gaylion]

Here's  a video of some dudes firing an M-60 through a wooden propeller. 

 

Of course that modern ammunition using 7.62 caliber so you can keep the ballistics argument going.

 

 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

46 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

You are right but do you really think Petrov will be reading the wall of text you posted?  Do you think it will help him adjust the algorithm of the damage model for Flying Circus?

 

We need to establish whether this is effecting the Albatross more than other planes or is it a general,  unrealistic change to all aircraft.  Got a track of a DVII being hit by a short burst and it's wing coming away after gentle maneuvering?  We need to show there is an obvious problem.

 

C'mon man, do you think that I don't know how do proper test? Those first person accounts were for encourage us to fight against those paper wings (do more tests too) ...

Edited April 13, 2020 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[No.23_Triggers]

Forum Bickering is going to stall any attempt to get the current DM replaced - plenty of tracks, videos, etc to demonstrate our concerns should hopefully generate some Dev interest. The historical accounts are also important....

I'll look at what tracks I can get from testing with wingmen, etc. 

Edited April 13, 2020 by US93_Larner

[J5_Gamecock]

Well, FWIW  here is a video of different rounds, (including 7.62mm), piercing sheets of plywood. 

 

 The 7.6mm went clean through. 

 

1 hour ago, DD_Arthur said:

We need to establish whether this is effecting the Albatross more than other planes or is it a general,  unrealistic change to all aircraft.  Got a track of a DVII being hit by a short burst and it's wing coming away after gentle maneuvering?  We need to show there is an obvious problem.

 It appears to have had an impact on all planes, however I believe that it has affected the Halb and DVa the worst.  

I could be wrong, but it certainly seems that way from testing I've done.

 

[No.23_Triggers]

12 minutes ago, J5_Gamecock said:

It appears to have had an impact on all planes, however I believe that it has affected the Halb and DVa the worst.  

I could be wrong, but it certainly seems that way from testing I've done.

 

Halb is by far the worst from what I've seen. Alb, SPAD and S.E. are also fairly terrible - both have had their 'fighting style' severely handicapped. Bristol, Pfalz, Dr.I and D7 seem to be.....okay....by new standards, but haven't tested Bristol and Pfalz as thoroughly. 

Can't speak on Camel and Dolphin yet

Edited April 13, 2020 by US93_Larner

[emely]

Hello everybody .  On this forum I have no friends, and I can’t imagine the opinion of my squadron.  I want to state the following.  All that I wrote about damage to wooden structures and stuff, this is my personal opinion and I am confident in it now.  I said what I think, I was honest with all of you.

At this point in time, I conclude that the developers do not have a real model of WW1 aircraft structural damage.  All that they have is a general, primitive scheme, averaged over the entire set of aircraft.  I am sure that the developers are well aware of the situation of the complete failure of the new update in the flying circus.  Their silence on this subject, for a long time, passed into a different definition.  If a few days later, after this situation, this could be regarded as their analysis of the problem, today it becomes clear that they all understand and are still silent.

I declare myself personally, I am alone.  I consider this situation a clear disrespect for the client. 

I see no reason in a further exchange of views on the topic.  Nobody takes these opinions into account anyway.  Goodbye, thank you all and forgive me if I was not very polite

[J5_Gamecock]

9 minutes ago, emely said:

Hello everybody .  On this forum I have no friends,

 This is not true. 

 

 We're all in this, everyone.

40 minutes ago, US93_Larner said:

, SPAD and S.E. are also fairly terrible - both have had their 'fighting style' severely handicapped

 Can't answer to the "fighting style" as I've had little time in either craft, (although I was fairly good in Spad in ROF).

 Strictly from "target" point of view, the Spad will take a few more hits before the wings collapse, as well as Pfalz.  SE5, not so much.

 

 

[SeaW0lf]

56 minutes ago, US93_Larner said:

Can't speak on Camel and Dolphin yet

 

I think it affects every plane in different ways. My Camel folded wings already (I was lucky to be grazing the ground). I have seen Pfalzes losing their wings and Dr1s detach sections of the wings. Today I hit a Dr1 and he started shaking like he had the fever. Could not turn right. I think the model preserves some planes, the sturdy ones, but I don't think you can feel safe in none of them. 

 

The rule of thumb is, if you get a few hits, even a couple, go home or else you will be in trouble. I'm seeing people scared of turning or diving in dogfights after being hit. When they do dive, most lose their wings. The shaking also affects the outcome, because the plane starts to fall apart in shallow dives.

 

But I agree that the Albatros and the SE5a (haven't seen Spads yet) are more vulnerable to dives and are falling like autumn leaves out there. But the Camel and the Dolphin share some similarities, so it wouldn't surprise me if they are losing wings just as much.

 

So unbelievably out of touch with everything we've been saying all these years.

 

 

Edited April 13, 2020 by SeaW0lf

[emely]

15 minutes ago, J5_Gamecock said:

 This is not true. 

 

 We're all in this, everyone.

 

I'm sorry if this phrase hurt you.  I wanted to say that I do not rely on anyone in this opinion.  I only say this on my own behalf, these are just my words.  (I hope I went through all the options so that the meaning would come)

Of course you are my comrade and commander of our wing, I am very pleased to hear your voice in the TS when you say to our legion "Good job guys" ?

Edited April 13, 2020 by emely

[HagarTheHorrible]

34 minutes ago, emely said:

Hello everybody .  On this forum I have no friends,

 

I wouldn't say that, we all have opinions, sometimes heated differences.  I believe English isn't your native language and as such, some of your comments can seem a little brusque (course) but I, for one, certainly take that into account and don't judge you on that.  We are all here to share our enjoyment of the game, try to educate and learn something or just shoot the breeze (some of us are just bad shots) but it's nothing worth falling out over and like yesterdays news, in the past and soon forgotten. 

[DD_Arthur]

 

 

[Hellequin13]

10 hours ago, JG1_Butzzell said:

 

 

The structure of the wing either lower or upper is insufficient to support itself.  The support is in the steel wires. When on the ground and no lift is generated the wings, the wires from the top of the cabane struts to the outer end of the lower wing supports both wings. These are called landing wires.  They prevent the wings from snapping and falling down.   When in flight, the lift generated by the wings is carried through the wire from the outer part of the top wing to the lower part of the fuselage. These are called Flying wires. They prevent the lift created from snapping the wings up.   No wires, no wings.  When putting the wings on the plane, they must be supported until the wires are in place and tensioned.

 

Yes, and no: the spar is not rigid enough to support the weight of a wing in and of itself, but it is also not so weak that the wing will crumple under it's own weight. Likewise the bracing wires do not support the weight of the wing, but rather redistribute the forces on the wing. A flying wire resists the lifting force by transferring some of that force inward and down to the lower wing, where as the landing wire moves the the weight inward and up. More importantly, these bracing wires eliminate flex in the wing, keeping everything rigid.

 

An unbraced wing (whether the wires have been stretched or shot out) will still hold up under flight. The lift generated by the wing will support the weight of the wing , but being unbraced, will flex under the forces (thus Capt. Biddle's wing flapping).

 

But the point of bringing up the way biplane wing structure supports itself was not get into the nuance of the physics, but rather to point out that the structural integrity of the wings relies on several support structures, and to compromise a wing to point of complete failure would require a fair bit of damage to these structures. A loss of a strut, or wires will weaken the wing, allowing  flex, limiting  load capacity. A damaged spar, likewise loses load capacity, but does not equate to a loss of the wing (as the other supporting structures are still in place).

 

A few rounds should not result in a wing shedding incident. What we should be seeing is compromised wings under increasing damage. Wing failure, more often than not, should be at the hands of the pilot, rather than being shot off.

 

The problem is, the hit boxes need to be reworked. Based on the evidence, the wing can be shot away, regardless of where the wing is hit. We do not appear to have hit boxes on the critical components. There is a fundamental simulation of the degradation of the support system (loss of a strut results in wing flex/fracture), but, without a proper simulation of the destruction of said systems, we don't get a progression of structural failure based on loss of support, but more of a 'x% of damage to the wing = y% structural failure'.

 

I am thinking what we are asking for is really going to be quite a bit of work for the devs. To accomplish a realistic damage system for the wings would require the addition of a number of new hit boxes, which is tied to the 3D model. Then there is reworking the calculations for the stresses on the components based on what is damaged and what is not. It is a pretty tall order, which would need to be added to their already too long to-do list.

 

But things can't stay as they currently are: the game is more or less broken. I personally feel disinclined to fly, at least more than one or two sorties, as I know I will meet a frustrated end due to an unrealistic loss of wing. And I know I am not alone in this. Which is a shame, as we were starting to see some growing intrest in FC, which offered hope for a continuation in the series.

 

So what is the quick fix?

 

As Hagar pointed out, the U2 does not appear to suffer the same malady (can't confirm as I don't own it yet). Perhaps some comparitive tests on that and the FC kites, to demonstrate the difference between them and see if we can coax the devs to rehash our numbers to be more in line with the U2?

[HagarTheHorrible]

Ultimately, this is just a game, it has to be fun.  I think most of us, if not all, were quite happy with the structural damage model, prior to 4.005, it may not have been perfect but it was understandable and quantifiable, flying and shooting at each other was fun with reasonable expectations of success and survivability.  4.005 has introduced, a frankly confusing, new dynamic that to most of us, I’m sure, is less perfect than what went before, as much as because we can’t use our logic to quantify it, just make guesses.  The game is now loaded to much to the advantage of the shooter and against that of the quarry, it robs the game of the balance that existed prior to the patch that made dogfighting so much fun.  Ultimately it diminishes our level of fun and enjoyment because it leads to incomprehension and frustration.  We end up asking ourselves, as I think SeaWOLF pointed out, why would I bother flying and climbing for 10 - 20 minutes, only to get a some, not obviously meaningful damage, from some widely spayed bursts of bullets to invalidate all the time and effort I have just given to the game.

 

The game prior to 4.005, was fun, please, Developers, give us our fun back and revert the structural damage model, for FC aircraft, back to before the patch.  If you, on the other hand (Developers) think this new DM is such an improvement over what went before then by all means come here, to this forum, and explain it to us, so that we may also understand and make a logical assessment of how we play our game, rather than be stuck with a game in which we don’t understand, or haven’t been told, all the rules.

Edited April 14, 2020 by HagarTheHorrible

[Dornil]

I'll just leave this here.

[HagarTheHorrible]

20 minutes ago, Dornil said:

I'll just leave this here.

 

.........but were you there ?  How do you know it wasn’t just a bad case of woodworm or moths ?  If only they’d known, been a bit cleverer,  and made their aircraft from Camphor wood (mothballs to you).  Come to think of it, the pilot is standing rather awkwardly, as if he has unloaded something other than just his gun, “off to the showers with you” m’lad.

Edited April 14, 2020 by HagarTheHorrible

[No.23_Triggers]

3 hours ago, Dornil said:

I'll just leave this here.

32 minutes ago, J3Hetzer said:

So, to summarise, if I've understood everything correctly...we were presented a hyped-up, over-claimed but basically bogus DM that now turns out to be a bunch of extremely simple and arcade generic hit-boxes, the results and consequences of which will be The Next Big Thing to be ignored by the devs for months if not years.

About right?

Tank Crew...all-seeing AI, ignored by devs, game dead.

Flying Circus...invisible planes, now this arcade DM, game dead.

When I say 'dead' I'm referring to the numbers of people not playing them online (though I suspect many, like me, no longer have any interest in them offline either). It seems, to me, the only real sim left going from this studio is the WW2 one but even that is hardly what one could call well populated online.

In my opinion the IL2 ball was dropped a long time ago. Issues both big and small are allowed to accumulate and remain unfixed until player trust and patience is exhausted and they just walk away. My biggest regret is the amount of money I've wasted (on TC and FC).

Yes - it's no secret that the devs are favouring WW2 heavily over their 'little side projects'...I suppose it's to be expected, it's where the business is...but I've always thought the Devs have some degree of responsibility to listen to the community if they're going to provide a product and, more importantly, to work with the community on coming to an understanding with the community (carefully worded - I don't also think the community should be able to strong-arm changes into the game). As it currently stands, the community and the devs seem to be 'at odds' with very sparse communication between them. 

I think the new DM is actually really good.....for the WW2 players. Being one of the 'Black sheep' communities (alongside TC) within the IL2 overall community, we've been suffering from it, though. 

[Zooropa_Fly]

13 minutes ago, US93_Larner said:

Yes - it's no secret that the devs are favouring WW2 heavily over their 'little side projects'...I suppose it's to be expected, it's where the business is...but I've always thought the Devs have some degree of responsibility to listen to the community if they're going to provide a product and, more importantly, to work with the community on coming to an understanding with the community (carefully worded - I don't also think the community should be able to strong-arm changes into the game). As it currently stands, the community and the devs seem to be 'at odds' with very sparse communication between them. 

I think the new DM is actually really good.....for the WW2 players. Being one of the 'Black sheep' communities (alongside TC) within the IL2 overall community, we've been suffering from it, though. 

 

Too much noise can affect a receivers' ability to listen.

It's hard to imagine any update the devs could make to anything without causing a riot of some sort on the WW1 forums.

 

I haven't noticed anything that's a game-changer for me yet, but we should at least give the devs a chance to look at it and respond.

We don't want to give them an excuse to say 'sod this'

 

 

 

[Panzerlang]

1 minute ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

 

Too much noise can affect a receivers' ability to listen.

It's hard to imagine any update the devs could make to anything without causing a riot of some sort on the WW1 forums.

 

I haven't noticed anything that's a game-changer for me yet, but we should at least give the devs a chance to look at it and respond.

We don't want to give them an excuse to say 'sod this'

 

 

 

You mean like the invisible planes thread, which was eventually addressed with nothing more than being locked? Yeah, stellar respect and attention to the issue therein.

[J2_Oelmann]

I am faithfull with the new DM, but it should have been tested and evaluated more.

Is there a way to see an Overview of the hitboxes inside the 3d Models?

[Zooropa_Fly]

I'm seeing the big problem mainly with the Albatros.

Could it simply be a faulty single hit box ?

 

I can still batter the crap out of Dr1's, Pfalz's, and the DVII frame for long enough.

I've removed a couple of Camel and Bristol wings right enough, but after a few good passes.

 

..and the disappearing wings is one of those dreaded 'immersion killers' for me.