New DM

[HagarTheHorrible]

What sort of an impact (boom boom), if any, do you think the new DM will have on FC ?

[J2_Trupobaw]

I can't say .

[No.23_Gaylion]

Is it here????

[Zooropa_Fly]

SE5 wings will fly off after 6 rounds once again, hopefully. ?

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Well he said it includes 59 planes ...

[HagarTheHorrible]

Ok then, let’s put it a slightly different way.

 

Bearing in mind that the new effects will be physical rather than visual, what would you like to see ?  As an example, if I were shooting at a sesquiplane, could I, given that it has only one spar in the lower wing, be damaged more easily ?  Also, if some aircraft have extra, or doubled, “flying wires” would they be more resilient ?

Edited March 6, 2020 by HagarTheHorrible

[SeaW0lf]

1 hour ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

Well he said it includes 59 planes ...

 

Does it includes us?

[No.23_Gaylion]

I believe it does.

[SeaW0lf]

I just hope they don't simply bring the DM from ROF (folding wings, bullet dispersion), just like they rolled back the Albatros and Pfalz. That would create havoc here. The current DM and the lack of shaking planes, the lack of folding wings and the possibility for long deflective shots is the only thing going for FC at the moment.

 

Also, not long ago I saw an interview of a P-51 ace, don't recall which one, saying that they liked more the bullets of the P-51 and P-47 because cannon shells only gave it superficial damage, since they exploded on impact. He said that it was better to lose an external piece of the wing that to have piercing bullets wreaking everything in its path. It is for real? There is also that famous footage of a B17 being shot by a German. It kind of sounds like he describes: the bullets are just taking the skin out. Or did it have delayed-fuse?

Edited March 6, 2020 by SeaW0lf

[AndyJWest]

1 minute ago, SeaW0lf said:

I just hope they don't simply bring the DM from ROF...

 

Given that AnPetrovich has just written an 1660-word explanation of how they are creating a new damage model, after collecting data "for all 59 aircraft in the simulator", that seems unlikely.

[SeaW0lf]

Well, they might know that the Flying Circus DM is touted since day one by mostly everyone.

[No.23_Gaylion]

Yeah I think this will be something amazing honestly.

[RNAS10_Oliver]

This part sounds as though the impact on the changes would be that going for "meat and metal" would be more productive. And unless our rounds go through and hit the same spars enough times going for wings and etc is not going to be productive. But then again with regards to the aircrafts in the Circus that is already the case. So whether this change is now going to make wings easier or harder to remove? ?‍♂️

 

Quote

For example, armor-piercing bullets and shells make relatively small external damages on the skin commensurate with their caliber. They do not cause “large-scale” damage to the structure frame anymore, but they do hits like a point strike, hitting through a wing spar for example, or breaking a hinge of elevator or aileron. A broken spar, of course, loses its strength, that makes the wing more weak and leads to break it under the less G-load (this is not new in our DM, by the way). But now, using armor-piercing shells to make several damages of the spar in the same area, you need to hit it many times, depending on the spar dimensions and the ammo caliber. In the same way, in order to turn the skin into “rags” or to tear off the landing gear wheel, you need to shoot a rather long time to the particular part of the plane. In other words, firing armor-piercing shells will not be as effective against the airframe as before.  The chance to get into the structure frame and break it is not great, and the skin is not particularly affected. Although, with enough desire and having the presence of a sufficient amount of ammunition, you can "cut" the airplanes apart with armor-piercing projectiles if their weight of fire converges and causes enough damage.

 

1 hour ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

Ok then, let’s put it a slightly different way.

 

Bearing in mind that the new effects will be physical rather than visual, what would you like to see ?  As an example, if I were shooting at a sesquiplane, could I, given that it has only one spar in the lower wing, be damaged more easily ?  Also, if some aircraft have extra, or doubled, “flying wires” would they be more resilient ?

 

Not entirely non-visual. I do seem to remember some remarks around here about seeing the puffs rather than sparks when hitting non-canvas parts of the aircraft. So perhaps this part is going to be a welcome change to those persons. Personally though it's not something that I've particularly noticed, more concentrating on trying to shoot the bugger down than inspecting.

 

Quote

The visual effects of hitting the plane (sparks, wood chips, etc.), as well as sound effects, will now depend on the part of the plane in which the projectile hit. Even when shooting at the same part, for example, on a landing gear wheel, one can see different effects of hits - sparks from the wheel’s disk (if the disk is metal) or a cloud of “debris” and “dust” from the tire.

 

[No.23_Gaylion]

I'm very interested in the sound effects. Having been shot at IRL, I feel like one would hear the sound of the round crack/snap by your head.

[BraveSirRobin]

1 minute ago, US213_Talbot said:

I'm very interested in the sound effects. Having been shot at IRL, I feel like one would hear the sound of the round crack/snap by your head.

i’m pretty sure he’s talking about the sound of the rounds hitting things, not the sound near misses.

[No.23_Gaylion]

Yeah I know. 

 

As a whole I think the sounds are all kinda blah.

Edited March 6, 2020 by US213_Talbot

[HagarTheHorrible]

While, addition sounds, might not be exactly realistic, over and above the sound of engine and wind and might possibly be described as “a bit Hollywood”, at the same time they might make up for a lack of other senses or feelings that limited peripheral vision or feeling might otherwise struggle to convey.

 

Personally, I’d like to see a more complex engine, fuel and radiator DM.  Plywood skin, metal cowling and canvas hit effects would also be a nice upgrade.

Edited March 6, 2020 by HagarTheHorrible

[76SQN-FatherTed]

23 minutes ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

Personally, I’d like to see a more complex engine, fuel and radiator DM.

 He said that was the next project...

 

It's also worth noting that he explained that there will be a discrepancy between the DM and the visual representation of it.

[JGr2/J5_Klugermann]

36 minutes ago, =CfC=FatherTed said:

 He said that was the next project...

 

It's also worth noting that he explained that there will be a discrepancy between the DM and the visual representation of it.

 

Will probably apply to the reach-arounds as well.

[No.23_Starling]

Talbot has been shot at???! I’ve shot real stuff with my 22 but I was never the target 

[HiIIBiIIy]

4 hours ago, J5_Klugermann said:

 

Will probably apply to the reach-arounds as well.

Please contact https://shrinksrus.com/

[emely]

So what kind of bullets in our circus are high-explosive or armor-piercing?  ;-))

[Panzerlang]

8 hours ago, SeaW0lf said:

I just hope they don't simply bring the DM from ROF (folding wings, bullet dispersion), just like they rolled back the Albatros and Pfalz. That would create havoc here. The current DM and the lack of shaking planes, the lack of folding wings and the possibility for long deflective shots is the only thing going for FC at the moment.

 

Also, not long ago I saw an interview of a P-51 ace, don't recall which one, saying that they liked more the bullets of the P-51 and P-47 because cannon shells only gave it superficial damage, since they exploded on impact. He said that it was better to lose an external piece of the wing that to have piercing bullets wreaking everything in its path. It is for real? There is also that famous footage of a B17 being shot by a German. It kind of sounds like he describes: the bullets are just taking the skin out. Or did it have delayed-fuse?

It depended on the angle of the strike. Oblique strikes would see the round detonate before penetration, square strikes would see the round penetrate before detonating (generally speaking).

Edited March 7, 2020 by J3Hetzer

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

21 minutes ago, J3Hetzer said:

It depended on the angle of the strike. Oblique strikes would see the round detonate before penetration, square strikes would see the round penetrate before detonating (generally speaking).

 

Which is how it generally plays out in-game.

 

Also, from RL experience shooting vehicles with .50 AP;  yeah, the round will keep going.  So there's definitely something to that pilot's account.  However, shot placement is pretty important.  Depending on the angle you're firing from it can still take 2 to 3 shots to reliably disable a technical for instance, while with a nice view of the grill you can almost always do it with one.

 

That said, it seems like with something like a wing it would be easy to just go through and through without hitting anything too important; while an exploding 20mm could be a really bad day.  But I guess that's why .50s came in sixes and eights.

Edited March 7, 2020 by J28w-Broccoli

[emely]

8 hours ago, SeaW0lf said:

I just hope they don't simply bring the DM from ROF (folding wings, bullet dispersion)

Dispersion in the circus does not suit me.  The atmosphere is dead, as in a family crypt, closed tightly 100 years ago.  While we are flying 1x1, this can still be tolerated.  But any moron, arriving third from the side, can cram bullets into your ass from a distance of 500 meters or more.  And of course, after that, run with a report to Blue Max ? There should be 250 - 300 meters maximum for a normal hit.  All that’s more is rare luck or a waste of bullets.

[US103_Baer]

It sounds a great initiative. DM is one of IL2 Great Battle's core strengths, good to see them doubling down on that. 

 

Wrt Flying Circus, I noted the comment about sparks and 'wood chips' flying off will now be totally dependent on the actual material hit by the bullets. Less 'dust' from wing hits in future?

 

Also wondering if balloon guns might become a worthwhile thing again.

[ST_Catchov]

Sounds good. I'm aroused. But will the visuals match the calculated damage?

[ZachariasX]

13 hours ago, SeaW0lf said:

Also, not long ago I saw an interview of a P-51 ace, don't recall which one, saying that they liked more the bullets of the P-51 and P-47 because cannon shells only gave it superficial damage, since they exploded on impact. He said that it was better to lose an external piece of the wing that to have piercing bullets wreaking everything in its path. It is for real? There is also that famous footage of a B17 being shot by a German. It kind of sounds like he describes: the bullets are just taking the skin out. Or did it have delayed-fuse?

 

Cannon shells don’t explode right at the surface when they strike. They will explode after roughly 20 cm upon entering structure and (in case of 20 mm HE) cause explosive and shrapnel damage after that point, blast force projecting forward. You can expect parts of the HE grenade projecting forward like a smaller caliber ball round. If you fire such a shell into a 10 stack of ~4 mm aluminum sheets spaced about 10 cm each, you have about 3 sheets just showing a 2 cm hole as if it was a ball round, then torn sheets (fist size hole) and the last 2 or so sheets show an exit hole as if it was a smaller caliber ball round.

 

I‘d take such statements with a grain of salt. .50 BMG could flip Tiger tanks after all, they said.

[LukeFF]

5 hours ago, emely said:

So what kind of bullets in our circus are high-explosive or armor-piercing?  ;-))

 

The 20 mm cannon shells fired by the 20 mm Becker cannon are AP.

Edited March 7, 2020 by LukeFF

[=IRFC=NakedSquirrel]

I'm guessing it means if you have to hit something vital to actually damage a wing.  If it is applied to RoF the easiest planes to see it on would be aircraft with large wings, like the  Sopwith Dolphin.  Sure they're easier to hit, but most of the wing is fabric and air.  I expect you'd have to hit the struts and spars to do any appreciable damage.

 

I know it's only anecdotal, but I don't see the Dolphin or Se5a in FC shedding wings as often as they did in in RoF.  Some of the DM patches seemed to be leading this way, but hopefully this next upgrade improves the DM further.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

2 hours ago, NakedSquirrel said:

I'm guessing it means if you have to hit something vital to actually damage a wing.  If it is applied to RoF the easiest planes to see it on would be aircraft with large wings, like the  Sopwith Dolphin.  Sure they're easier to hit, but most of the wing is fabric and air.  I expect you'd have to hit the struts and spars to do any appreciable damage.

 

I know it's only anecdotal, but I don't see the Dolphin or Se5a in FC shedding wings as often as they did in in RoF.  Some of the DM patches seemed to be leading this way, but hopefully this next upgrade improves the DM further.

It's way better that they don't shedding wings like in ROF which was exploited by players. You must understand that do to simplified wing damage model (cumulative damage to whole wing wherever bullet hit) this is better to make it that way. If we would have individual hit boxes for spars , flying wires , and separate dm for canvas then it would make sense but it won't happened any time soon. What you propose (wing DM as in ROF) is against all FC community which  are happy with new strong wings. ROF dm model and FC ballistic would kill this game in one day  , please think what you ask for.

[Zooropa_Fly]

It's as if all wings in FC are now as the DVIII wing.

The old game's wings were certainly too weak, but that doesn't mean they haven't made them too strong in FC.

 

[SeaW0lf]

39 minutes ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

The old game's wings were certainly too weak, but that doesn't mean they haven't made them too strong in FC.

 

Right now it is pretty similar to what I read in books. Plus we get the guns damaged and such. And your wings will fold if they got too many hits and you keep pushing it. I've done some long dogfights and it sounds pretty good to me (both ways, hit and being hit).

 

We incur in the risk to end up like the wound blackouts. I think I only had two bloody visions since the new physics were introduced. All the other wounds (perhaps 98% of them) are long blackouts, which sounds pretty farfetched to me.

 

Good riddance.

Edited March 8, 2020 by SeaW0lf

[No.23_Gaylion]

The albatross wing can be sawn off and it looks REALLY cool. The whole side comes off in a single piece.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

1 hour ago, SeaW0lf said:

 

Right now it is pretty similar to what I read in books. Plus we get the guns damaged and such. And your wings will fold if they got too many hits and you keep pushing it. I've done some long dogfights and it sounds pretty good to me (both ways, hit and being hit).

 

We incur in the risk to end up like the wound blackouts. I think I only had two bloody visions since the new physics were introduced. All the other wounds (perhaps 98% of them) are long blackouts, which sounds pretty farfetched to me.

 

Good riddance.

I'm for changing the almost always black out after being hit. Head shoot  should be end of life. Black out only to over Gs.

[J5_Gamecock]

1 hour ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

I'm for changing the almost always black out after being hit. Head shoot  should be end of life

 I agree.  Just end it for cryin' out loud. Nothing more annoying than sitting there looking at a black screen and waiting...10...20...30 seconds while you spiral to the ground then die anyway. If you're lucky, you get killed within the first 10 seconds by another shot.

 Dead is dead, so why not  do away with the immersion killing wait time.  JMO

[SeaW0lf]

That's not always the case. The other day I had two of those wound blackouts near the ground and I survived. One was literally on the deck. The plane was on an ascendant turn and I did not crash. Some tail heavy planes seem to climb in blackouts as well. The other aspect is that we can only imagine that our foe got a wound blackout. Especially BZoomers, it takes some time to turn around and bounce again, and if the guy is not blacked out and you are not careful, you can end up having trouble. So there are some good things about it, and it adds one more aspect to the dogfight equation, which is good. 

 

I would just tone it down, make it less likely to happen and perhaps reduce to blackout time. It is realistic (there are some accounts of wound blackouts out there), it just need some tweaking in my opinion.

[HagarTheHorrible]

I mentioned fuel tanks before, which reminded me that some aircraft in the game have two fuel tanks, one pressurized, the other gravity fed.  I wonder if the new DM will take account of this fact.  I only mention it because of what Seawolf mentions above.  A fuel leak can be a show stopper, time to beat a hasty retreat, with two tanks though, that panic to get home should be less dramatic.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

New fuel tanks dm would  need to wait for advanced fuel management implementation, which is in to do list , in this year  if I remember correctly.

Edited March 8, 2020 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[US103_Baer]

14 hours ago, SeaW0lf said:

That's not always the case. The other day I had two of those wound blackouts near the ground and I survived. One was literally on the deck. The plane was on an ascendant turn and I did not crash. Some tail heavy planes seem to climb in blackouts as well. The other aspect is that we can only imagine that our foe got a wound blackout. Especially BZoomers, it takes some time to turn around and bounce again, and if the guy is not blacked out and you are not careful, you can end up having trouble. So there are some good things about it, and it adds one more aspect to the dogfight equation, which is good. 

 

I would just tone it down, make it less likely to happen and perhaps reduce to blackout time. It is realistic (there are some accounts of wound blackouts out there), it just need some tweaking in my opinion.

 

Exactly. You will recover from a blackout and the plane often stabilises itself meantime. If the enemy doesn't get a shot in the next 10-15s, which is quite common, you can still get away. Which sounds a lot better to me than being dead!

Edited March 9, 2020 by US103_Baer