Rift S to Pimax - would you upgrade?

[Alonzo]

I'm currently a fairly happy Rift S user. My rig is an 8086K @ 5.0ghz, RTX 2080 graphics, and it drives the Rift S nicely. I like the comfort of the Rift S, but I would like better image clarity and I would definitely like the extra FOV if it can be used for checking six (if the distortion is too much and checking six is not helped, there's little reason for me to upgrade).

 

I think I have discounted the Index because it's too heavy. I already wrench my neck once a week in a dogfight, I don't really want to add 40% weight for an Index.

 

I'm considering the Pimax ecosystem. Some questions and thoughts:

• Artisan has caught my eye, because I don't think the extreme FOV of the other headsets is actually that useful (especially given that FFR is buggy, and we're likely getting to the distortion limit of the lenses). But is it going to be enough of a clarity bump over Rift S for me to want it?
• 8KX is the other contender. I don't think there's a GPU on the planet that can power it, but GPU tech is improving, they might fix FFR, and eye tracking might eventually be a thing. And I can run it at a lower render target until GPUs catch up. It's eye-wateringly expensive. Is it overpriced? Would I miss the 120hz option that I'd get with the Artisan?
• Should I be buying the Valve controllers and base stations? If I don't then I will have to use my Rift S to play Alyx. If I do get them, am I in for a long wait? Is this "can't update the base stations" problem a real problem when buying them from Pimax?

 

I've priced out a couple of options, and any way I slice it the 8KX ends up being probably 2x the cost of the Artisan. But I have a niggling feeling that although the Artisan is a nice bump in FOV, it's not going to do much for pixel density, and I might regret it as a bit of a sidegrade from the Rift S.

 

Any thoughts or advice?

[TCW_Brzi_Joe]

Well, I have this hobby, IL-2. I spend a lot of time on it. And for me only gaming is VR gaming. 

I went from Oculus rift to Pimax 5k+. It was a huge step for me, but a few days later it became just "normal"

I will buy Pimax 8kx, when they start to ship. It is a lot of money, and on end it will be again just "normal" to me. But I love to play, and I will enjoy this game for many many hours. That counts also.

 

Basically, if you can afford it, take the best. If not, enjoy what you can.

There are no bad decisions, almost every HMD on market has its value.  Take care to choose what you can use (i.E. I can not use googles without hardware IPD slider). 

 

For this sim better is bigger fov and pixel density. Low refresh rate is not problem for il-2 (even I needed time to get used on it, 75Hz).  That means Pimax 8kx is just made for simmers 

 

PS: I have 8700k and 1080Ti

Edited February 17, 2020 by Brzi_Joe
ps

[chiliwili69]

You ask a very difficult question indeed.

 

First at all, if you don´t want a heavy and uncompensated device, don´t buy the Index.

 

Then, in your case, I would go for the Artisan. Although it is not totally clear in any case.

Why?

- It will ship  much earlier (the 8KX is uncertain)

- You will see the nice Artisan FOV in IL-2, it will be a big step from Rift-S. (with my Pimax5K+ the normal FOV was more than enough)

- It cost you much less (I think the 8KX is overpriced, but it has no competition)

- Your system will run without performance problems, so better settings

- You will test the water with all the Pimax software, without investing too much.

- For Alyx the Artisan will be with you and it will be more than enough for than game.

 

Then, you will enjoy and will see with your own eyes the device, which is what ultimately matters.

 

Then after six months of use, you will be able to decide if you want a better device (8KX or whatever arrives then). You can sell the Artisan at a good price.

And at that time, we all know more details about the performance of 8KX in IL-2 and the new GPUs.

 

Regarding the controllers+basestations, I really don´t know. It would probably faster if you order the headset only and procure the base stations and controllers for other sources (Valve, ebay, second hand). But really don´t know.

Edited February 17, 2020 by chiliwili69

[Alonzo]

3 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

Then, in your case, I would go for the Artisan. Although it is not totally clear in any case.

Why?

- It will ship  much earlier (the 8KX is uncertain)

- You will see the nice Artisan FOV in IL-2, it will be a big step from Rift-S. (with my Pimax5K+ the normal FOV was more than enough)

- It cost you much less (I think the 8KX is overpriced, but it has no competition)

- Your system will run without performance problems, so better settings

- You will test the water with all the Pimax software, without investing too much.

- For Alyx the Artisan will be with you and it will be more than enough for than game.

 

Then, you will enjoy and will see with your own eyes the device, which is what ultimately matters.

 

One thing that makes it difficult also is that I am in the Oculus ecosystem right now, so I don't have any base stations or controllers. To play non-sim games in the Artisan it really pushes up the price:

• Get the Artisan for simming, stick with Rift S for everything else. Need to buy Artisan + v1 base station = ~$449 + $150 = $600.
• Get the Artisan + important accessories, just for simming. Artisan + Pimax audio strap + Comfort kit + v1 base station = $767.
• Get Artisan + Valve controllers + audio strap + comfort kit = $1116, sell Rift S kit for $300 = "$816" for Artisan.

I see people saying the basic Pimax strap is no good. Is that true? Do we know if the Pimax modular audio strap is any good? Is the base model ok? Why is the deluxe almost twice the price? Do I need a comfort kit or will the Artisan ship with one? Do I need a silicone protector sleeve, or are people who complain about damage to their 5K+ just careless?

[AuburnAlumni]

To piggyback on what some others have said...

 

Going from Rift S (Which I too have and am very pleased with) to a Pimax 8kx you are looking at around 2k total once you include the entire set (which going from Rift S you would need)

 

Then..for someone like myself...I'd want to also pump my 1080Ti to the new Nvidia 3000 series GPU to account for the extra horsepower needed to push the higher clarity and larger FOV at an FPS comparable to what I"m getting now with my 1080Ti/8700k/Rift S setup.  So there's another 1500ish dollars on top of that.

 

So to get the FPS and performance that I would want similar to what I have now with an 8Kx I'm basically forking over 3500.00 to 4k dollars for the bump in FOV and Resolution.

 

With a wife and 4 year old...that's a bit excessive IMO.  Especially considering the game looks great as is now in my Rift S.

 

Would I like "the best FOV and resolution"?  Of course.  Is it worth an upgrade of $4000 from my current setup....Nope.

[dburne]

1 hour ago, AuburnAlumni said:

To piggyback on what some others have said...

 

Going from Rift S (Which I too have and am very pleased with) to a Pimax 8kx you are looking at around 2k total once you include the entire set (which going from Rift S you would need)

 

Then..for someone like myself...I'd want to also pump my 1080Ti to the new Nvidia 3000 series GPU to account for the extra horsepower needed to push the higher clarity and larger FOV at an FPS comparable to what I"m getting now with my 1080Ti/8700k/Rift S setup.  So there's another 1500ish dollars on top of that.

 

So to get the FPS and performance that I would want similar to what I have now with an 8Kx I'm basically forking over 3500.00 to 4k dollars for the bump in FOV and Resolution.

 

With a wife and 4 year old...that's a bit excessive IMO.  Especially considering the game looks great as is now in my Rift S.

 

Would I like "the best FOV and resolution"?  Of course.  Is it worth an upgrade of $4000 from my current setup....Nope.

 

I tend to agree, as much as I love and am hooked on VR, no way am I going to spend that kind of money to experience what may be

the best when technology continues to change fairly rapidly.

And I really love the simplicity of my Rift S with it's inside/out tracking which works great with the 5 cameras.

 

I considered Index, but just not sure I want to go back to using sensors again. 

I have considered Reverb, but at that not sure I want to mess with both WMR and Steam VR. 

So for me I think I will just wait for the next better device to drop.

Plus I can run IL-2 with my graphics pretty much maxed out and it looks gorgeous.

 

[Alonzo]

Well I think there’s a bit of exaggeration going on there. If you can sell your Rift S kit and your 1080ti you get some cash back, and the GPU upgrade is sort-of optional—we don’t know what the 3000 series will perform like, or the cost, and you could under-sample the 8KX until ready for an update or (say) FFR or VRSS software solutions start to work. But yeah the 8KX is not a cheap upgrade. I’d only do it if I felt I was future proofing and could get at least a couple of years or more out of it.

 

Edit: I realise the irony of using "future proof" to refer to tech that's evolving faster than cellphones. I guess I just mean that the display tech is very good and might be very decent for a while. Rift S was arguably only just enough to keep people interested compared to other non-Oculus options, I'd rather not feel stuck again like I do now.

Edited February 17, 2020 by Alonzo

[coconut]

12 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

Then, in your case, I would go for the Artisan. Although it is not totally clear in any case.

Why?

- It will ship  much earlier (the 8KX is uncertain)

 

There's recent info from today that states the opposite, see https://community.openmr.ai/t/february-17-2020-update/26111

 

Quote

PRODUCTION INFORMATION:

8kX / Some materials are delayed for 3 weeks. Samples late march, first batch build expected April 2nd. We will advise further as we progress on ramping up this production with more information.

8k+ / Some materials are delayed but next batch back is back production today / February 17th.

Artisan / We are slowing down Artisan production to prioritize 8kX and 8k+ production. We will fully resume these at a later date.

 

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

I'd recommend going for the 8KX or the 8K+. But the 8KX will require an RTX2080ti to run properly. I've simulated the same stress on the system by oversampling the 5K+ and equalizing for Hz. The 8KX will run at 75Hz (or 80Hz) in native resolution - which means it'll put less stress on the CPU in IL-2 than more often refreshing headsets.

 

The thing will definitely get shipped. The only risk is within the schedule. It's their flagship and the demand is high. There are issues with the schedules of Index devices though now as well - the supply chains went AWOL with the Corona Virus. With the Artisan slowing production now, and being a 1st gen device, it might take a while as well, and within a year you'll want to upgrade to 4K 2nd gen headsets. The 8KX is one, so you might want to consider it a 2nd-gen lasting purchase and enjoy it sooner.

 

 

One more important thing: You need 2 Basestations in any case. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise - you need that translational dimension to move in. They are also meant to work in pairs, in opposite corners of the room.

 

If you buy Index Controllers and Basestations, best is to buy the Controllers from Valve, and you can also buy HTC Vive Basestations v1.0 - I use this combination.

[Alonzo]

6 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

I'd recommend going for the 8KX or the 8K+. But the 8KX will require an RTX2080ti to run properly. I've simulated the same stress on the system by oversampling the 5K+ and equalizing for Hz. The 8KX will run at 75Hz (or 80Hz) in native resolution - which means it'll put less stress on the CPU in IL-2 than more often refreshing headsets.

 

The thing will definitely get shipped. The only risk is within the schedule. It's their flagship and the demand is high. There are issues with the schedules of Index devices though now as well - the supply chains went AWOL with the Corona Virus. With the Artisan slowing production now, and being a 1st gen device, it might take a while as well, and within a year you'll want to upgrade to 4K 2nd gen headsets. The 8KX is one, so you might want to consider it a 2nd-gen lasting purchase and enjoy it sooner.

 

 

One more important thing: You need 2 Basestations in any case. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise - you need that translational dimension to move in. They are also meant to work in pairs, in opposite corners of the room.

 

If you buy Index Controllers and Basestations, best is to buy the Controllers from Valve, and you can also buy HTC Vive Basestations v1.0 - I use this combination.

 

Is there a full enumeration of the modes for the 8KX anywhere? It's hardware switchable between 75hz 4K-per-eye and 90hz upscaled 1440p-per-eye, right? Can the upscaler run at refresh rates other than 90?

 

I'm definitely not going to upgrade my GPU before the 3000-series. The Canadian peso doesn't help me either, my 2080 (EVGA XC Ultra) was like $1500 CAD. If the 3000-series provides a generational boost similar to the last time, a hypothetical 3080 ought to do same as or slightly better than 2080ti, right? Do your simulated tests tell anything about what I might be able to run for Normal FOV, 8K mode, 75hz, 2080 (non-ti) ?

 

For base stations, I was under the impression that the only reason you need two is occlusion, not for 6DOF. My old Rift CV1 ran 6DOF fine with just one sensor, the second was to support trackers and bigger play space.

 

Would you buy the bundled base stations + controllers, or get them from Valve directly? (Steam presumably would let me order them, they're not cheap though, cost $100 more than if I were to bundle them with the Index).

[chiliwili69]

On 2/17/2020 at 11:14 PM, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

One more important thing: You need 2 Basestations in any case. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise - you need that translational dimension to move in.

 

For a fixed seated experience 1 base station is enough. I only used 1 basestation (1st gen) for the Pimax5K+ and also the Index.

With the Pimax5K+ I had some tracking issues at the beginning but it was due reflections of a picture in the wall.

 

1 basestation of course also gives you 6DOF.

 

Obviously if I rotate my head like an owl (just 180deg), almost all sensor in the headset are occluded and you lose tracking. But with the nice FOV of the Index or better the Pimax I don´t turn my head more than 120 deg.

 

The only thing is that the Pimax need a bit more of distance than the Index to work properly.

On 2/17/2020 at 1:15 PM, Alonzo said:

I see people saying the basic Pimax strap is no good. Is that true? Do we know if the Pimax modular audio strap is any good? Is the base model ok? Why is the deluxe almost twice the price? Do I need a comfort kit or will the Artisan ship with one? Do I need a silicone protector sleeve, or are people who complain about damage to their 5K+ just careless?

 

The Pimax basic strap is ok for short period, but it really don´t fix the headset well to your head. That´s why people (and me) was using the old DAS from Vive. And also the reason why Pimax created their own modular audio strap which seems similar to the old DAS from Vive.

 

So, forget about the basic strap.

 

The price of the deluxe version is because the "deluxe" headphones.

 

The comfort kit is not included with the Artisan. I have not try it but I think it is good since more surface of your face is in contact with the device. With the original Pimax5K+ I quickly realize that I had to change the cushion. I really don´t understand why they sell the Artisan without the comfort kit and modular audio strap. It will simplify the buying process and the production and the customer satisfaction. 

 

The nice thing of the Rift-S or Reverb is that it is just one package with everything you need. 

Valve has more options based in basestations and controllers, and it is logical. But the headset is just one thing, one good headset (and uncompensated).

 

Pimax should reduce their options of headsets, just focus in two lines, the basic (Artisan) and the premium (8KX). This will simplify their entire business. I should talk with their marketing director... ? 

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

The guy has no power over this. Wang is the CEO, he's giving directions. Chinese corporate culture doesn't allow lower management to criticize higher ups. It's super hierarchical. They will act as if they listen and then either ignore it, or if you overdo it, you're going to look for a new job very soon :))

[TWHYata_PL]

https://community.openmr.ai/t/pitool-1-0-1-255-feb-26-2020/26214

 

No more flickering loading screen in Pimax thanks to new PT.

[Georgio]

On 2/17/2020 at 8:06 PM, dburne said:

 

I tend to agree, as much as I love and am hooked on VR, no way am I going to spend that kind of money to experience what may be

the best when technology continues to change fairly rapidly.

And I really love the simplicity of my Rift S with it's inside/out tracking which works great with the 5 cameras.

 

I considered Index, but just not sure I want to go back to using sensors again. 

I have considered Reverb, but at that not sure I want to mess with both WMR and Steam VR. 

So for me I think I will just wait for the next better device to drop.

Plus I can run IL-2 with my graphics pretty much maxed out and it looks gorgeous.

 

 

Pretty much what I'll do.

More than happy with the Rift S and glad to dump the sensors after the CV1.

The main thing is that give it 3-5 years and there will be more options available undoubtedly with higher resolution and FOV, VR isn't going away anytime soon even if we have to piggy back the Social VR hardware after Horizons hits.