Wing-cannon recoil

[ensempre]

Hello,

in the "Great Battles" series I've noticed that wing-mounted cannons (even those in Il-2 and Stuka) don't produce any recoil effect on the airframe; is this accurate or should be some sensible shacker on pilot view? By watching CloD videos I can see them very clearly.

Thanks all

[Finkeren]

They most definitely produce recoil. You will feel the yawing motion very distinctly, if one of your wing guns is out of action and you fire the other. 

[Art-J]

I suppose OP means the shaking effect. If 20 mm cannons were causing such an earthquake experience as they do in CloD, the planes would start falling apart after a a few flights ?. It's one of those hollywood-ish visual effects CloD would do better without in my opinion.

[ensempre]

Art-J, yes i mean the shaking effect; it adds some immersion in my opinion but if they are not as in real flight, better have not them.

[RedKestrel]

39 minutes ago, Art-J said:

I suppose OP means the shaking effect. If 20 mm cannons were causing such an earthquake experience as they do in CloD, the planes would start falling apart after a a few flights ?. It's one of those hollywood-ish visual effects CloD would do better without in my opinion.

In old Il-2 1946 I remember being able to scoot your plane backwards on the ground by firing the guns. The Yak-9T's nose cannon cost you a significant amount of airspeed when you shot it too. I have a feeling this was a tad overmodeled at the time.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S! 

 

The recoil of a gun is high. For example the recoil of Gsh-23-2 23mm gun on is 3500kg. Installed on Mig-21 etc. The recoil of the 45mm gun on Yak-9K was enough to throw off thec aim after 2-3 shots and also did cause structural problems. The 37mm guns on the IL-2 were not a success either, recoil causing yaw. Finns called the P39 the rocking chair due its 37mm gun rocking the plane etc. So is CloD modelling that much off after all? 

Edited February 11, 2020 by LLv34_Flanker

[RedKestrel]

1 hour ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

S! 

 

The recoil of a gun is high. For example the recoil of Gsh-23-2 23mm gun on is 3500kg. Installed on Mig-21 etc. The recoil of the 45mm gun on Yak-9K was enough to throw off thec aim after 2-3 shots and also did cause structural problems. The 37mm guns on the IL-2 were not a success either, recoil causing yaw. Finns called the P38 the rocking chair due its 37mm gun rocking the plane etc. So is CloD modelling that much off after all? 

There was a P-38 with a 37mm cannon?

[TRRA15]

FWIW, it could be that some or even much of the recoil generated by firing a round is absorbed by the mechanism that auto reloads the next round....assuming the gun is gas operated.

[-LUCKY-ThanksSkeletor]

4 hours ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

S! 

 

The recoil of a gun is high. For example the recoil of Gsh-23-2 23mm gun on is 3500kg. Installed on Mig-21 etc. The recoil of the 45mm gun on Yak-9K was enough to throw off thec aim after 2-3 shots and also did cause structural problems. The 37mm guns on the IL-2 were not a success either, recoil causing yaw. Finns called the P38 the rocking chair due its 37mm gun rocking the plane etc. So is CloD modelling that much off after all? 

 

It is I would say it's exaggerated to say the least. I feel like you would have extra vibration added more than yourself actually being rocked around by the action of the weapons. 

 

The structural problems were mainly caused by poor mounting of the weapon in an airframe it wasn't designed for. Not really the same thing as let's say a bf109e4 with wing cannons that were designed to be there. 

[ShamrockOneFive]

6 hours ago, ensempre said:

Art-J, yes i mean the shaking effect; it adds some immersion in my opinion but if they are not as in real flight, better have not them.

 

Some previous sims really overplayed the effect by a large margin. This implementation always struck me as being far more realistic and coincidentally the other combat flight simulation that simulates WWII at a high degree of fidelity agrees.

 

The times you'll particularly notice the recoil effects are when one gun stops firing. Otherwise the two weapons tend to even things out.

[Art-J]

17 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

There was a P-38 with a 37mm cannon?

 

Although Flanker made a typo in his post, edited later, P-38 was indeed originally designed for and equipped with 37-mm cannon. Not for long though, as the E-version, first produced in some reasonable numbers, was also the first to switch to 20 mm eventually.

Edited February 11, 2020 by Art-J

[RedKestrel]

5 minutes ago, Art-J said:

 

Although Flanker made a typo in his post, edited later, P-38 was indeed originally designed for and equipped with 37-mm cannon. Not for long though, as the E-version, first produced in some reasonable numbers, was also the first to switch to 20 mm eventually.

Oh, I just realized he meant the P-39! Its only one number off. I should have clued in.

That is interesting that early on they equipped the P-38 with one. Considering my hit rate with the 37mm its probably for the best that they moved to the 20mm!

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Third low of Mr Newton assure us that there need to be recoil. But airplane engineers for sure done something to reduce it effect on flaying characteristics

[Jaws2002]

On 2/10/2020 at 11:40 AM, Art-J said:

I suppose OP means the shaking effect. If 20 mm cannons were causing such an earthquake experience as they do in CloD, the planes would start falling apart after a a few flights ?. It's one of those hollywood-ish visual effects CloD would do better without in my opinion.

 

 

     Recoil is more damaging and disruptive when the guns are installed in the wings, compared to the fuselage/engine mounting installations.  The heavier the part you hook the guns to, the more stable the gun is.  

 The Brits had a lot of issues when they installed they Hispano cannons in the wings of their fighters. The French never had issues with the same cannon in their fuselage installations, because there was more mass in the immediate vicinity to absorb the recoil and vibrations. 

Edited February 11, 2020 by Jaws2002

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

In game there is a good bit of recoil in some guns, with low power settings you can slow down by firing the big cannons. 

 

The thing is that the wing cannons are perfectly syncronized in game and that helps countering the recoil, if you lose one gun you can really feel the recoil of the remaining one. We should have tiny differences in rate of fire for each gun to have the aim throwing recoil when holding the trigger for long bursts

[216th_Jordan]

2 hours ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

We should have tiny differences in rate of fire for each gun to have the aim throwing recoil when holding the trigger for long bursts

 

I'd love that!

[Avimimus]

17 hours ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

In game there is a good bit of recoil in some guns, with low power settings you can slow down by firing the big cannons. 

 

The thing is that the wing cannons are perfectly syncronized in game and that helps countering the recoil, if you lose one gun you can really feel the recoil of the remaining one. We should have tiny differences in rate of fire for each gun to have the aim throwing recoil when holding the trigger for long bursts

 

...Also modelling a chance of gun jams (particularly for the Mk-101, Mk-108, MG-FF, and some other cannons that had issues)!

 

P.S. It might make sense to have some setting for wing rigidity affect some guns. I don't know if this is already modelled. In particularly, the accuracy of the Mk-103 on the Fw-190A6 should be impacted, and the g-tolerance of the Il-2 should be reduced when firing 37mm cannons... as they had to avoid pulling gees while firing in order to reduce the risk of structural failures). That said, for all I know some of this could already be modelled.

 

P.P.S. It'd also be good to have trigger settings for the Hs-129 (at least as a field mod in the menus) so that we can choose which trigger to put the Mk-101/103 on).

[Stoopy]

On 2/12/2020 at 4:21 PM, Avimimus said:

P.P.S. It'd also be good to have trigger settings for the Hs-129 (at least as a field mod in the menus) so that we can choose which trigger to put the Mk-101/103 on).

 

Big +1 to that!

[Lusekofte]

I read that Ju 8t G had the cannons synchronized in order to shoot accurate. And IL 2 had not or not enough rendering its cannons less accurate. 

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

The Il-2 with 37mm and Stuka had Loaded Chamber Switches in the Guns, which only closed the Circuit when both Chambers were loaded and Bolts closed. This was to prevent asynchrous running of the Cannons.

A Dud in the Chamber would still allow the other Gun to fire, but generally the Guns would fire Synchronized.

[Lusekofte]

Personally. Looking at other features added to this game. I get a bit afraid what going to happened if they did add recoil on these cannons. 
I feel they are a bit too accurate in a2a, but when it comes to a2g the rendering of targets and small size of them will simply make the task impossible if it get further complicated

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

1 hour ago, LuseKofte said:

And IL 2 had not or not enough rendering its cannons less accurate. 

Knowing Russian Electrics my guess is that the Systems would have been deactivated by their Crews or Bypassed and been omitted from Production at some Point. Pilots would likely have an inaccurate Aircraft than one where you Push the Trigger and nothing happens.

You definetly feel the Recoil in the Guns whenever you are actually trying to hit stuff. Keeping the Guns on Target in Automatic Fire is a Game of Chance.

[Lusekofte]

37 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

You definetly feel the Recoil in the Guns whenever you are actually trying to hit stuff. Keeping the Guns on Target in Automatic Fire is a Game of Chance.

Personally I learned that long burst with any gun with tracers is deadly. Tracers can be seen across the map and you attract too much attention. I like big bore cannons for one reason. Only fire once or twice at the time. 
but mostly I just drop bombs and ditch any big guns. Light is far too visual in this game. Flying a IL 2 and being visual is instant death. 
Best is just drop bombs snd leave