Panther tank damage model

[Goosevich]

I guess not, but on the other hand how many 75mm rounds were inside? I hope they would fix/show/assure that high caliber  HE shells work properly

[LachenKrieg]

16 hours ago, Voidhunger said:

Again Im not shure if this hit to the panther gun mantlet by 122mm HE shell will cause total destruction of the tank.

It looks like it was deflected to the commanders cupola, but I think in worst scenario, cupola will be shot off and commander killed or the turret roof will collapse killing all the crew in the turret. Not the fatal destruction of the tank.

 

 

To me that shell would likely not even hit the cupola. If you draw a line through its center point on the long axis of the shell, it looks like it should strike the top of the gun mantlet at a point where it has a very high curvature. A 122 mm HE round might cause percussion/shock damage to the lightly armored top, but most of the blasts energy should be deflected up at least 30 degrees away from the turret roof.

 

Someone else correctly pointed out here that the number of pictures showing turret separation due to internal detonation is relatively small. But it seems to happen with the current damage model too frequently.

[Voidhunger]

BTW what type of shell is SU122 using as default. Is the heat shell also traceless like the HE ?

 

I have never had a problem facing SU122, but after recent update/updates I cant survive front hit to the turret or glacis in Panther tank even on 1200m and probably more.

I survived once hit to the glacis of panther, but the gun traverse and elevation was severely damaged. I didnt tested Tiger against HE 122 projectile yet.

 

I know they are large and heavy projectiles but I think Panther and Tiger should be able to survive few hits to the front with HE 122m projectile?

Or am I wrong?

I would expect in worse scenario, damaged tank components, wounded crew, disabled engine, or armor spalling/cracking, but complete loss of the tank every time? or almost every time?

Strange is that I can survive few hits to the panther glacis from SU152 HE shells and not the 122m.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Voidhunger

[SCG_judgedeath3]

While myself is busy testing the panther against shermans and t-34s and somehow the AI can kill the panther frontally with ease when engaging from 600meters and longer distances, often with the first shot, and they always aim on the turret at what I suspect is a weakspot that the AI always aim for, but when engaging at closer range the armour works and can survive a lot of hits....
 

 

[Voidhunger]

Just now, SCG_judgedeath3 said:

While myself is busy testing the panther against shermans and t-34s and somehow the AI can kill the panther frontally with ease when engaging from 600meters and longer distances, often with the first shot, and they always aim on the turret at what I suspect is a weakspot that the AI always aim for, but when engaging at closer range the armour works and can survive a lot of hits....
 

 

Im playing with the Panther a lot and 99% of the frontal kills from 76mm rounds are when the enemy shells hits the lower part of the gun mantlet, deflecting the round down to the hull roof.

In recent updates, they reduced it somewhat and they also reduced AI accuracy with some shots.

Its noticeable and Its improvement.

Im pretty satisfied how is 152mm round modeled against Panther frontal armor, mainly AP round, but the 122mm HE round is overkill.

If I can somewhat survive hit from the 122mm HE round Im dissabled from further combat and the second round is certain kill.

But in 99% they can kill me frontally from 1200-1400m with just one HE round, to the hull front or the turret.

[Voidhunger]

So Im here again, so frustrated with the SU122 firepower I decided to try Ferdinand,

to my surprise from distance 1200-1400m one 122mm round hit my front superstructure armor, Ferdinand started to burn, optics destroyed, crew wounded, maybe someone killed.

I know there is a engine below the gun and some shrapnels could damage, destroy the engine, but again I think that damage is to big for just one round.

I have tested some mission and cant survive one or two 122m hits from that distance.

Overall Ferdinand was dead. Second round hit the roof of the superstructure and that was the end. At that angle I thought that the second round will ricochet.

 

 

 

[LachenKrieg]

On 10/6/2020 at 2:53 PM, Voidhunger said:

BTW what type of shell is SU122 using as default. Is the heat shell also traceless like the HE ?

 

I have never had a problem facing SU122, but after recent update/updates I cant survive front hit to the turret or glacis in Panther tank even on 1200m and probably more.

I survived once hit to the glacis of panther, but the gun traverse and elevation was severely damaged. I didnt tested Tiger against HE 122 projectile yet.

 

I know they are large and heavy projectiles but I think Panther and Tiger should be able to survive few hits to the front with HE 122m projectile?

Or am I wrong?

I would expect in worse scenario, damaged tank components, wounded crew, disabled engine, or armor spalling/cracking, but complete loss of the tank every time? or almost every time?

Strange is that I can survive few hits to the panther glacis from SU152 HE shells and not the 122m.

 

 

5 hours ago, Voidhunger said:

So Im here again, so frustrated with the SU122 firepower I decided to try Ferdinand,

to my surprise from distance 1200-1400m one 122mm round hit my front superstructure armor, Ferdinand started to burn, optics destroyed, crew wounded, maybe someone killed.

I know there is a engine below the gun and some shrapnels could damage, destroy the engine, but again I think that damage is to big for just one round.

I have tested some mission and cant survive one or two 122m hits from that distance.

Overall Ferdinand was dead. Second round hit the roof of the superstructure and that was the end. At that angle I thought that the second round will ricochet.

 

I am able to duplicate what you are seeing. The SU-122  knocked out both the Ferdinand and the Panther with a single connecting shot at 1400m, each three times in a row. It usually took 2 to 3 shots before the SU-122 hit its target though.

 

This doesn't seem to be at all accurate, or possible. Considering the Panther has an effective frontal armor of between 150 - 170 mm, it is hard to believe that the SU-122 can knock it out with a single hit 3x in a row, even more unlikely is that it could do the same against the Ferdinand.

 

I could not find a lot of data on the BP-460A round, but what I did seems to match the specs given in-game. I read one report that did not specify distance, but said an SU-122 hit a Tiger turret 6x without penetrating it. Most of the information I can find suggests that its HE round was not effective against armored vehicles, and that the HEAT round developed for this purpose was low quality and failed to meet expectations. Also, 1400 m was considered a long shot in terms of being able to hit the target accurately.

 

It seems that the simulation of the SU-122's gun should be adjusted in order to be more realistic.

 

I thought this was a nice overview of the vehicle: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjBu7resqvsAhXvUN8KHQ91CvMQFjAAegQIAxAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.the-ancients.com%2Fgemigabok%2Fsu-122-assault-gun%2F&usg=AOvVaw33luix0bp2U2EtQif3sEl5

 

 

"The standard HE fragmentation shell contained 3.67 kg of explosives and was a devastating weapon against infantry, field emplacements and soft-skinned vehicles. Upon impact it shattered into 2000 to 2500 fragments with an initial velocity of 1000 to 1500 meters per second. Most sources say that the HE shell was ineffective against armor but others claim that it nevertheless caused considerable damage due to the shock of the impact which caused a spalling effect inside the target tank.

 

However that may be, the Russians decided to put a HEAT round into production for the howitzer, with the designation BP-460A. Apparently the round was not of high quality and it did not make the SU-122 an effective tank destroyer. No penetration data for either round seems to be readily available. At any rate the howitzer’s low muzzle velocity undoubtedly made hitting moving targets a difficult proposition."

 

 

     

Thought I would add this out of interest: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi8xdWvvKvsAhWudN8KHerqByYQFjAAegQIARAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.panzer-war.com%2Fpage58.html&usg=AOvVaw1SGKyxLlaGkN6RztuMsrj0

Edited October 11, 2020 by LachenKrieg

[Voidhunger]

Good job with the new update!

 

 

but since there were no changes to damage model in the latest update im providing some battle accounts.

When the AP round penetrate the German tanks from every side in the game there is always catastrophic explosion.

I can penetrate from the front Russian tanks sometimes with 5 rounds (no ricochets) and the tanks are smoking, burning, crew escaping.

Not in German tank. Also it would be nice to have something similar to new wobbling effect we have in planes. When the crew is wounded, shocked, by the impacts, penetrations.

(at least in allied tanks since its impossible too survive penetrating hit in German tanks ?).

 

Even with lots of ammo inside the German tanks, in real life there was not always catastrofic explosion after the first round.

Even the Wittmans tiger didnt blow up immediately when was hit.

 

I hope we can have some changes until TC is officially released, because honestly it looks bad and its immersion killer

 

 

 

 

Shortly thereafter, Loritz’s tank [Tiger 331] was hit and destroyed from short range. The first round landed in the turret and must have killed the entire crew or at least have badly wounded them, because none of the hatches were opening. Seconds went by. A second hit, this time in the engine compartment. The gasoline caught on fire!

Engulfed in a sea of flames, the Tiger burned out accompanied by numerous explosions with its entire crew onboard. Both rage and sorrow accompanied this message of bad news for the company—it had lost one of its best!

 

OneTiger, that of SS-Unterscharführer Oberhuber, was penetrated on the driver’s side by a flank shot from an antitank gun. The crew bailed out; the driver was killed and the radio operator lost an arm.

 

Tiger 232 was penetrated by direct hits from two antitank guns.SS-Unterscharführer Moldenhauer and his gunner were killed immediately. The badly wounded radio operator jumped out of the tank and was captured. The driver kept his wits about him, pulled out of the column at high speed and returned to the assembly area,where the badly wounded loader could later be recovered.

 

We had barely hit the Englishman when, an antitank gun—probably a 75 mm PaK— firing at the Englishman hit us instead. It hit us in the left between the track and the running gear. The round penetrated and sliced the seat right out from under my backside. I found myself on the turret floor. At the same time, the round tore open a shell casing and the propellant charge ignited in a jet of flame. There was nothing for us to do but to bail out, and quick. The radio operator, loader and tank commander were the first ones out.

 

The lead tank, Tiger 222, was penetrated three times by a 6-pounder when it rounded a curve. The antitank gun was firing newly introduced sub-caliber sabot rounds from virtually pointblank range. The Tiger caught on fire, but the crew was able to bailout.

 

There is also the well known account of Helmut Wendorffs tiger which was knocked out by a Sherman.

The round penetrated probably the turret killing loader and commander. Driver escaped, trapped radio operator commited suicide and the gunner was rescued.

 

and of course the Cologne panther which took 3 hits and some of the crew manage to escape.

 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2020 by Voidhunger

[Peasant]

Here is some penetration data on the soviet 76mm and 122mm HEAT rounds captured during Korean war: 

 

[LachenKrieg]

It doesn't look like there were any changes made to these munitions between WWII and the Korean war. Given how frequent changes occurred due to continuous testing, I am surprised.  

[Peasant]

22 hours ago, LachenKrieg said:

It doesn't look like there were any changes made to these munitions between WWII and the Korean war. Given how frequent changes occurred due to continuous testing, I am surprised.  

 

The soviets have probably dumped the old ww2 ammunition stores to their n.korean allies because its "good enough" while leaving the latest toys for themselves. 

[LachenKrieg]

It may have been good enough, but it still shouldn't be able to punch through the 6 to 7 inches of steel on the Panther's slopped front. Especially not at 1400m. If the Devs want to water down the mechanics a little for the sake of game play, I wonder if they could restrict the watered down settings to just the "NORMAL" mode, and keep the "EXPERT" setting for more realistic mechanics? I prefer that things are as close to real as possible.

[ww2fighter20]

29 minutes ago, LachenKrieg said:

It may have been good enough, but it still shouldn't be able to punch through the 6 to 7 inches of steel on the Panther's slopped front. Especially not at 1400m. If the Devs want to water down the mechanics a little for the sake of game play, I wonder if they could restrict the watered down settings to just the "NORMAL" mode, and keep the "EXPERT" setting for more realistic mechanics? I prefer that things are as close to real as possible.

Maybe the su122 can go through the frontal upper plate on long range (1400m) because of bullet drop?

Because bullet drop increases with range so does the angle the shell will hit an tank with sloped armor (on an armor plate that's aimed upward like the panthers frontal upper plate) this again reduces the amount of mm of armor the shell will have to go through and since heat doesn't loose penetration over range it would become more affective against the frontal upper plate on long range.

[2/JG26_rudidlo]

There is more issues, like when going over the tent in tank, you will get dead engine and machine gunner.

I assume TC could be released Q1/2021-ish.

Edited November 17, 2020 by 1stCL/rudidlo

[ww2fighter20]

11 minutes ago, 1stCL/rudidlo said:

There is more issues, like when going over the tent in tank, you will get dead engine and machine gunner.

I assume TC could be released Q1/2021-ish.

Jason already announced on the skins and templates section the game will be officially released this friday.

[Voidhunger]

After the new update SU122 HE rounds were toned down. I can survive some hits in Panther of tiger. Sometimes there is a wounded crew member, dead engine or damaged parts of the tank. Now it feels believable to me.

[SCG_judgedeath3]

1 hour ago, Voidhunger said:

After the new update SU122 HE rounds were toned down. I can survive some hits in Panther of tiger. Sometimes there is a wounded crew member, dead engine or damaged parts of the tank. Now it feels believable to me.

Yep, also noticed that fighting against AI T-34s and shermans cant anymore kill one super easily frontally, before the first couple of shots landing on the gun mantlet caused the tank to explode, but now I can often have the AI run out of ammo before they damage me frontally in the panther. Shot traps cans till happen but its now a rare thing so its a huge improvment

[LachenKrieg]

2 hours ago, ww2fighter20 said:

Maybe the su122 can go through the frontal upper plate on long range (1400m) because of bullet drop?

Because bullet drop increases with range so does the angle the shell will hit an tank with sloped armor (on an armor plate that's aimed upward like the panthers frontal upper plate) this again reduces the amount of mm of armor the shell will have to go through and since heat doesn't loose penetration over range it would become more affective against the frontal upper plate on long range.

Well maybe that is a good point, but it was doing that with the thicker less slopped armor on the Ferdinand as well. But Voidhunger and SCG_J have seen improvements in this area so that is a really good thing. I will have to check it out and see for myself.

[Goosevich]

7 hours ago, ww2fighter20 said:

Jason already announced on the skins and templates section the game will be officially released this friday.

This friday? This is gonna be embarassing ?

[Voidhunger]

9 hours ago, SCG_judgedeath3 said:

Yep, also noticed that fighting against AI T-34s and shermans cant anymore kill one super easily frontally, before the first couple of shots landing on the gun mantlet caused the tank to explode, but now I can often have the AI run out of ammo before they damage me frontally in the panther. Shot traps cans till happen but its now a rare thing so its a huge improvment

Yes that was corected in one of the previous update

2 hours ago, Goosevich said:

This friday? This is gonna be embarassing ?

TC like BOX is never finished. There is a solid playable core and new things will come.

Like i said previously, BOX and ROF were too "unfinished" in our view on release and look at them now.

I hope that developers know what we want.

It would be nice if Jason or Han can share their vision or road map after the new year.

What can be done/improved for tanks in current engine. (More detailed map, more detailed QMB, grass visibility from longer distances, simple time slider in menu for disappearing objects, better/quicker command view, improved damage model, graphic effects, AI etc)

[2/JG26_rudidlo]

10 hours ago, ww2fighter20 said:

Jason already announced on the skins and templates section the game will be officially released this friday.

I still see a lot of bugs in TC. 

[Voidhunger]

1 hour ago, 1stCL/rudidlo said:

I still see a lot of bugs in TC. 

There are some, but you can smash them with the caterpillars ?

[Dauntless]

I want Königstiger and Jagdtiger!!! 

[clanitho]

Please, Panther A and G , Tiger 1E.

[LachenKrieg]

5 hours ago, Voidhunger said:

...TC like BOX is never finished. There is a solid playable core and new things will come.

Like i said previously, BOX and ROF were too "unfinished" in our view on release and look at them now.

I hope that developers know what we want.

It would be nice if Jason or Han can share their vision or road map after the new year.

What can be done/improved for tanks in current engine. (More detailed map, more detailed QMB, grass visibility from longer distances, simple time slider in menu for disappearing objects, better/quicker command view, improved damage model, graphic effects, AI etc)

I think Goosevich's point was more that he would prefer to see a more finished product on release as opposed to guessing how it might be improved over time. Can't say I blame him.

 

For me, I am happy to support a quality product, but get a little nervous when I see one with so many outstanding issues go from early access to final release. I don't have the experience here you do, so my confidence in what to expect after hearing the news was a little shaken to say the least. I am happy to stand behind your experience and wait, but I have also read comments from other forum members with as long a history that were less optimistic. So I guess I'm waiting.

 

Tank Crew has all the makings to become the gold standard in WWII AFV simulation, and if putting it up on steam will speed up getting there, then get it going. But its just that being predominantly known as a flight sim, its hard to tell at times if they know just how much potential Tank Crew has and how much better it could be, or if they even care.

 

On the upside, the most recent patch saw some nice touches to the models, and along with others, you have noticed improvements with the damage model, so I am now waiting and hopeful.

[Goosevich]

Basically what LachenKrieg said.

 All i want to add is - yeah i know how modern IL-2 started etc, but the new playerbase won't be happy about the product that in fact is an alpha build slowly entering beta stage. There's barely any content apart from gorgeous tank models. AI is braindead and will force players to stop giving a crap about the sim, MP scene is really small and singleplayer content itself is almost nonexistent (i'm not even touching on bugs and rather horrendous UX and a lack of proper tutorials) and the price point - oh boy the reviews will be salty i feel.
Please note i didn't try the newest patch but i doubt it will change my mind which is sad since i crave for a proper finished ww2 tank sim and i still have a glimpse of hope for TC.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Goosevich

[Voidhunger]

I hope that the new damage improvements come soon. Hit from T34 to the roadwheels under the tank.

 

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Voidhunger

[Monostripezebra]

Well, at least there is Iron Hans to keep carrying on!

 

 

[Voidhunger]

4 minutes ago, Monostripezebra said:

Well, at least there is Iron Hans to keep carrying on!

 

 

Yep! I saw your video yesterday ?

[Monostripezebra]

23 hours ago, Voidhunger said:

Yep! I saw your video yesterday ?

 

But to be fair.. it is not Panther specific, the comander in Tiger is also adamantium

 

 

[LachenKrieg]

Must be the cryptonite coated headset.

[Voidhunger]

Because vehicles in the game are imediately stopped when they are destroyed (I hate this so much), this was funny.

One single hit to the side of the Tiger and spectacular show!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by Voidhunger

[Voidhunger]

This was nice. 11 penetrations and the tank wasnt finished. 12th round finally finished him. approx 1000m

After 5 penetration Sherman finally stopped firing.

I think that after 2-3 penetrations, even if the crew is unharmed, they will bail out.

Edited October 10, 2021 by Voidhunger

[LachenKrieg]

7 hours ago, Voidhunger said:

This was nice. 11 penetrations and the tank wasnt finished. 12th round finally finished him. approx 1000m

After 5 penetration Sherman finally stopped firing.

I think that after 2-3 penetrations, even if the crew is unharmed, they will bail out.

Here is an image of the real thing. Sher man, vs Panther. Notice there are no ricochet marks. Each hit was a penetration. You can also see in at least one of the hits (second from the top, left hand side) that the bore passes through the armor plate in a slightly downward direction as opposed to an upward direction like what was suggested in an Ansys model posted elsewhere.

 

You can also see from the turret paint that this tank burned up. At this point in the war, a lot of German tanks were being manned by younger less experienced crews. I wonder if that could explain the six penetration marks?

 

 

[Voidhunger]

Cologne panther took 3 hits as assurance, maybe another tank was firing too on this tank.

Honestly i cant remember seeing photo of Sherman tank with ricochet. Only the photo of the Jumbo tank with 88mm hits.

 

the small hole on the right above the penetretation is from Panzerfaust?

Edited October 10, 2021 by Voidhunger

[LachenKrieg]

36 minutes ago, Voidhunger said:

Cologne panther took 3 hits as assurance, maybe another tank was firing too on this tank.

Honestly i cant remember seeing photo of Sherman tank with ricochet. Only the photo of the Jumbo tank with 88mm hits.

 

the small hole on the right above the penetretation is from Panzerfaust?

Oui. You see another on the bottom left aswell.

[Voidhunger]

40 minutes ago, LachenKrieg said:

Oui. You see another on the bottom left aswell.

i wasnt sure with the other one because there is no visible marks of the blast on the armor.

I would like to know more about this tank and the crew.

 

[LachenKrieg]

Yeah me as well. The image is from the book Panzer IV vs Sherman France 1944 by S. Zaloga. I would like to know if the open hatches resulted from an internal explosion, or was the crew able to get out? This is all the information the author gives:

 

"The Sherman’s armor was not adequate when facing the newer German weapons including the 7.5cm PaK 40 and the Panther’s 7.5cm KwK 42. This particular M4A1 is engaged in an unequal duel with a Panther from Panzer-Lehr-Division, and is shown here on July 20 after the German panzer offensive on the Vire River had been beaten back. Besides the six hits from the Panther’s 7.5cm gun there are two smaller holes on the M4A1 from Panzerfaust or Panzerschreck antitank weapons."

[Peasant]

This report seems to indicate that the UFP on these early Shermans was significantly stronger than other parts of its frontal armour as it deflected both 7.5cm from Kwk 40 and 8.8cm shells from the fearsome 88mm Flak guns (albeit at extreme range): https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=2339194#p2339194

[LachenKrieg]

24 minutes ago, Peasant said:

This report seems to indicate that the UFP on these early Shermans was significantly stronger than other parts of its frontal armour as it deflected both 7.5cm from Kwk 40 and 8.8cm shells from the fearsome 88mm Flak guns (albeit at extreme range): https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=2339194#p2339194

I really like what you guys do over there on the Axis History Forum. It is a really great site. I sort of browsed over the link you provide and than read one of your posts, but I didn't get from that information the conclusion you provided. What stood out most for me was the battalion Commander's notes when he writes:

 

"Effects of our weapons on the M4 :

The main weapon to combat the M4 is the Pz.IV / L, effective from 1800 meters. Impacts achieved at distances greater than 1800 meters (except against the frontal area of the hull) still have effects and can lead to disable their weapons or even to the crew abandoning the battle tank. Impacts have even been achieved at distances of up to 2000 meters, especially against its sides, which have caused the vehicle to burn. The effects of 7,

Most of the M4s were destroyed at ranges between 1,200 and 1,600 meters. Also the hollow charge grenades (7.5 cm long and short) have been used with good success, although in these cases the consumption of ammunition is very high since it is difficult to sharpen the aim because the impacts of the projectiles are very difficult to detect. watch. The 5 cm armor-piercing projectiles are only effective at ranges up to 1200 - 1400 meters.


Conclusion :

It must be tried to let the enemy approach and fight it from advantageous and sheltered positions. In the attack, the objective must be to envelop or surpass the enemy's flanks to achieve the effective combat distance of our tanks from 800 to 1600 meters: the poor lateral visibility of the M4 and the inexperience of the Americans play in our favor. In the frontal attack you should only point against the area of the bathtub between the two chains."

 

 

In any case, the author to the PzIV vs Sherman book is well known for his research into US involvement during WWII. He does a really nice piece on what contributed to the variations in German fighting force effectiveness on the different beaches during the invasion. But the image is clear in terms of the damage, and the statistics from both American and British sources converge on the same point, the Sherman was penetrated and burned often. This was the same in North Africa where Early Sherman's were lost at ranges up to 2km in engagements with Pz IV, and III's. In the same reference, the Pz IV G was considered the more effective weapon system up to 1300m. After 1300m, the Sherman gains a small advantage due to the Pz IV's weaker turret.