Not Arm-strong starters, but kickstarter aircraft instead

[HagarTheHorrible]

Having ported over aircraft from RoF, the developers must (probably) have a pretty good idea at the cost of porting individual aircraft over to FC.  Would it not be possible to use a kickstarter funding stream to incorperate additional, or pairs of, aircraft, FROM RoF into FC ?  Say, for example, the DH4/Halberstadt CL.II or the R.E.8/Roland CIIa.  Set up a funding page, with a funding target, and see what happens.  It would need to be carefully managed so we don't end with an unbalanced planeset or a "pay to win" advantage, so it might just be worth incorperating work horses such as two-seaters to flesh out the gameplay rather than a reloading of the dice ( It always bugged me that RoF had several late war Central aircraft, interesting as they were, competing against Allied 1917 era aircraft).

 

A kickstarter might even be a way to incorperate, and update, engine options for several aircraft, maybe even to moderize the engine regimes, or protocols, for the WW1 aircraft.  It would be nice to see the DVII/Alb/DIII get engine options to help them compete in the 1918 airspace.  If it's done via kickstarter then at least the developer can impliment gradual, specific, improvements without financial risk ?

[HappyHaddock]

All in favour of anything that builds upon WWI, but Jason has said many times before he does not intend going down the route of crowd funding.

[HagarTheHorrible]

?

 

FC is a bit different to the normal expansion module though.  I can understand Jasons reasoning, especially if producing new aircraft, but incorperating already developed aircraft from RoF the work is mostly done, there aren't the same potential surprises that producing new aircraft would entail.

Edited February 3, 2020 by HagarTheHorrible

[BMA_Hellbender]

Third party funding or any kind of charity is not a good idea.

 

This is a commercial product run by a company out to make a profit. They don't care about our feelings, they care about the bottom line. The best we can do is show that WWI is worth investing money in, so if you want to "crowdfund" them, gift a copy of FC to someone, buy a second account for yourself. Even filling out your RoF hangar shows that there is interest.

 

The sale has just ended, so I'd recommend you wait till the next one.

[HagarTheHorrible]

My RoF hanger is bursting at the seams. 

 

If it doesn't have VR, sad to say, I'm not playing.

[J2_Trupobaw]

3 hours ago, J5_Hellbender said:

Third party funding or any kind of charity is not a good idea.

 

This is a commercial product run by a company out to make a profit. They don't care about our feelings, they care about the bottom line. The best we can do is show that WWI is worth investing money in, so if you want to "crowdfund" them, gift a copy of FC to someone, buy a second account for yourself. Even filling out your RoF hangar shows that there is interest.

 

The sale has just ended, so I'd recommend you wait till the next one.

We'd have to be able to order development of the planes from them, the way development S-22 was ordered before.

Getting together money without knowing how much development even costs is ...difficult.

Agreeing what the plane we want to fund developing is going to be...  .

Edited February 4, 2020 by J2_Trupobaw

[BMA_Hellbender]

13 minutes ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

We'd have to be able to order development of the planes from them, the way development S-22 was ordered before.

 

Well, the Russian Military-Historical Society ordered those. I think it was a point of patriotic pride to make those.

 

As for what makes monetary sense: they will look at their own statistics of what the most popular planes were, beyond what we have in FC1. I'm guessing it's the 1917 classics: Albatros D.II, D.III, Pup, N17, Breguet, DFW. Making an FC2 out of that makes plain sense. Bombers must be popular too, but I just don't see those happening as part of a volume.

 

As for FC3... Let's not get too optimistic.

 

 

25 minutes ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

Agreeing what the plane we want to fund developing is going to be...  .

 

 

Johns Multiplane

 

 

 

Little know fact: it's the predecessor of the Fiat Multipla

 

[NO.20_W_M_Thomson]

I think if a kick starter(fund raising) was created for FC I would go with advertising before porting over planes from ROF, More people that see FC the more chances the developers make money, At the moment I see mostly ROF players in FC, that's not enough customers to continue FC, At the moment from what I understand they have very little advertisement and we all know advertising is huge in business especially in a game/sim.  

[AndyJWest]

A Kickstarter to raise money to advertise an existing product would violate their rules. Not that it matters anyway, since Jason has repeatedly said he's not going to get involved with crowdfunding.

[ST_Catchov]

Crowd funding is not an option apparently and FC was pretty much designed for the MP furballists. With VR as a bonus enticement. But it's not bringing in the sales with which they'd hoped to fund further development. Marketing the product more effectively would be great too … but it needs funds too.

 

So, If 3 of 4 …. or 9 of 10 players (take your pick, it's just what I've heard) prefer SP to MP then target these guys, attract them with a well fleshed out career. Jason is considering implementing some kind of SP campaign (free) which is a good move in the right direction imo. I'm sure a lot of SP players are not buying because FC is over-priced in its current state. However, a career or decent campaign might change their tune. It's too good a product to just let it die.

[Feathered_IV]

23 minutes ago, catchov said:

...FC was pretty much designed for the MP furballists. With VR as a bonus enticement. But it's not bringing in the sales with which they'd hoped to fund further development.

 

So, If 3 of 4 …. or 9 of 10 players (take your pick, it's just what I've heard) prefer SP to MP then target these guys, attract them with a well fleshed out career.

 

Definitely a cock up in the thinking it through department.  

[HagarTheHorrible]

On reflection ( difficult on account of these pointed K9's), Kickstarter is maybe the wrong turn of phrase.  Pre-order, or even qualified Pre-order, might better describe the process, even if it's only in regards of splitting words, and the developers seem happy for a pre-ordering revenue stream.

 

If FC can be fleshed out somewhat, to help add variety of gameplay, rather than simply just increase aircraft numbers for the sake of it and the development costs of incorporating a revised RoF model are known and it can be done without financial risk to the developer, then what's not to like ?  If FC is made more attractive to additional buyers, because of increased aircraft and gameplay options, funded by and at no financial risk to the developers, what's not to like ?   That does assume, obviously, that 90% of the work is handled by outsourcing, as with the existing FC models, and that very little has to be done by the core development team, so as not to interfere with BoN progress.

[AndyJWest]

I very much doubt that pre-orders ever raise enough funds in advance to cover the cost of their development. 

[JGr2/J5_Klugermann]

17 hours ago, J5_Hellbender said:

 

Well, the Russian Military-Historical Society ordered those. I think it was a point of patriotic pride to make those.

 

 

Should have made Tibor's Tractor as well

 

Edited February 4, 2020 by J5_Klugermann

[HagarTheHorrible]

1 hour ago, AndyJWest said:

I very much doubt that pre-orders ever raise enough funds in advance to cover the cost of their development. 

 

There is an awful lot of fluff around developing an expansion, not just the aircraft.  That’s already been done, think of it more in terms of collectors aircraft, but without all the leg work, research, flight modelling  etc. Again, I would be very surprised if the Developers didn’t have a very good idea of the unit cost of converting an aircraft from RoF to FC.  Maybe that unit cost is just prohibitive, then again maybe not, if additional aircraft can be funded from within the existing FC community and that then increases the appeal of FC to the wider community then we all win.

[AndyJWest]

12 minutes ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

 

There is an awful lot of fluff around developing an expansion, not just the aircraft.  That’s already been done, think of it more in terms of collectors aircraft, but without all the leg work, research, flight modelling  etc. Again, I would be very surprised if the Developers didn’t have a very good idea of the unit cost of converting an aircraft from RoF to FC.  Maybe that unit cost is just prohibitive, then again maybe not, if additional aircraft can be funded from within the existing FC community and that then increases the appeal of FC to the wider community then we all win.

 

I'd be surprised if the developers didn't have a good idea of the costs, too. Which is why I think it is safe to assume that they have already figured out that the funds they are likely to raise from pre-orders won't cover them. Do you really think that Jason won't have considered such options?

 

 

[JG1_Butzzell]

S! All

 

It took several years for RoF to become a fully functional sim. People are now used to that level in a product. Approximately 90% of purchasers play offline for the career. While PWCG is great, it is not the same as a built in career. FC Vol 1 is like making a car with only two wheels. If we sell enough, then we can make cars with 4 wheels and upgrade the originals.

 

Please remember that it is not just the sales of FC that should be counted. The WW I community has a history of .......

 

 "Hidden Figures"

 

 

Recently we have seen comments about the possible production of FC vol 2.  I can understand that there is no point in producing a product that has low sales and will not make back the production costs. The question is not really how many copies of FC vol 1 have been sold but how many copies of BOX have been purchased by people that  are not interested in WW II, merely to support 777 even back in the RoF days. Many bought planes they did not intend to use just to support RoF.  There are many in the WW I community that have been supporting the company not just Rof or FC for a long time.

 

Whether we get an FC Vol 2 or not we need to thank these people for their effort. 

[JGr2/J5_Baeumer]

Thank = $$$

Bought second copy of FC last weekend

[No.23_Gaylion]

I have 3 copies. 

 

Still have one to gift out.....

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

16 hours ago, JG1_Butzzell said:

The question is not really how many copies of FC vol 1 have been sold but how many copies of BOX have been purchased by people that  are not interested in WW II, merely to support 777 even back in the RoF days. Many bought planes they did not intend to use just to support RoF. 

 

And consequently sending the exact wrong message in the process.  All our support has been well rewarded, with 5 WW2 titles so far; which is why I'm done doing it.

 

As disfunctional as it is for FC supporters to need to be purchasing multiple copies of FC in hopes of keeping it afloat (In a long gaming "career", this is the first game I've played where this is commonplace); it may be the only way to effectively communicate what we actually want.  Even then, do the devs only care that it is selling, it doesn't matter to who?  Or do they know that copies are going out as gifts because sales are poor, and that factors into the decision on future content?

[HagarTheHorrible]

Where does all this sales info come from, or is it purely guesswork and supposition ?

 

I bought TC, but don’t play it much as yet because I need it to work better with VR, before I jump in and do the campaigns.  If you were to judge sales of TC based on looking at player count online, I would be invisible, even though I’d bought and paid for the game.

[ST_Catchov]

9 hours ago, J28w-Broccoli said:

 

And consequently sending the exact wrong message in the process.  All our support has been well rewarded, with 5 WW2 titles so far; which is why I'm done doing it.

 

As disfunctional as it is for FC supporters to need to be purchasing multiple copies of FC in hopes of keeping it afloat (In a long gaming "career", this is the first game I've played where this is commonplace); it may be the only way to effectively communicate what we actually want.  Even then, do the devs only care that it is selling, it doesn't matter to who?  Or do they know that copies are going out as gifts because sales are poor, and that factors into the decision on future content?

 

Very good point(s). And depressing. WWII is forging ahead and we are left behind. Like a child in the car while its bogan parents get pissed in the club on other peoples money.

[HappyHaddock]

There are just under 200,000 members listed on this forum but  it is a sad fact that however much noise we make on these forums to try build support and enthusiasm for WWI, that the vast majority of IL-2's customers probably never visit or post here to let their views or interests be known.

 

The devs know that and I assume that their decision making is not based solely upon what the limited but vocal few write here. Jason has also made it abundantly clear that what he wants and what he is permitted to do as producer don't always align as he too has bosses he has to satisfy with sales data.

 

It may not prove an easy thing to attempt here, but in an entirely different hobby I was involved in what could be described as a, for want of a better word, "consortium" of enthusiasts who all wanted to see something made commercially available that we were told wasn't economic, heck many were telling us it wasn't even physically possible to make it. We appointed a spokesperson we all trusted, all collectively put in funds from our own pockets and once we believed we'd raised enough we had our appointed representative formally approach a manufacturer with that cash and a detailed brief of what we wanted and how we thought it could be produced. 

 

In effect we reverse engineered crowd funding. Sure there was no guarantee of success but rather than waiting for a suitable manufacturer to try crowd fund a speculative project we simply took the money to their door. Fortunately, and to a modest degree intentionally,  we had overestimated what the job would cost and so had no trouble getting what we wanted made. Had we turned up with a pitifully short amount of cash and no clear consensus of what it was we all wanted or how to go about producing it then we might have got laughed out of the building. However, as it is we've been back five or six times and now have built a great working relationship with each new and successful project...

 

I would however pitty any individual who tried to attempt something similar here as I am sure we can all think of many reasons why it might not be advisable!

 

HH

 

 

[OrLoK]

13 hours ago, catchov said:

 

Very good point(s). And depressing. WWII is forging ahead and we are left behind. Like a child in the car while its bogan parents get pissed in the club on other peoples money.

A bit harsh dont you think?

 

The devs are doing their best for *all* of us.

[ST_Catchov]

On 2/6/2020 at 12:03 PM, catchov said:

 

Very good point(s). And depressing. WWII is forging ahead and we are left behind. Like a child in the car while its bogan parents get pissed in the club on other peoples money.

 

13 hours ago, OrLoK said:

A bit harsh dont you think?

 

The devs are doing their best for *all* of us.

 

 

 

Perhaps a little crude OrLoK. It's so unlike me. I must have been having a senior moment. 

 

I guess I was just trying to sum up what JG1_Butzzell writes below. A fairer distribution of funds and development. FC seems to be missing out. But then I don't know how the business model works (does anyone?!) and FC really seems to have been an after-thought experiment anyway so ….

 

Forgive me. I'm just a little selfishly cranky that FC doesn't seem to be going anywhere. It's such a shame.

 

 

 

On 2/5/2020 at 10:17 AM, JG1_Butzzell said:

The question is not really how many copies of FC vol 1 have been sold but how many copies of BOX have been purchased by people that  are not interested in WW II, merely to support 777 even back in the RoF days. Many bought planes they did not intend to use just to support RoF.  There are many in the WW I community that have been supporting the company not just Rof or FC for a long time.

 

Whether we get an FC Vol 2 or not we need to thank these people for their effort. 

 

 

[OrLoK]

no problem

 

we do tend to get passionate over games/sims we love.

 

i try to remember that the devs arnt doing anything deliberately to spite us, even if aspect X or Y "appears" to fall by the wayside.

 

im sure the team would love to drop in all the older RoF content if they could but they have limitations that are simply not and cant be made public to us.

 

its a great sim to us but to the devs its their livelyhood as well as their passion.

 

they want it to succeed just as much as we do, if not more!

 

i hope i didnt come across as harsh with my response!

[ST_Catchov]

8 hours ago, OrLoK said:

 

i hope i didnt come across as harsh with my response!

 

 

No of course not OrLoK. I'm a grown man! Look, I've seen far harsher to the point of extreme rudeness which is unnecessary. Anyway your post gave me an opportunity to explain (kind of) what I was trying to say.