Formation

[Domestos]

I've just started a carreer in the VVS, defending Stalingrad. I just wondered what formation my flight is attempting to use so I can slot myself in nicely. And.... why don't they tell me when they are bugging out?

The number of times I've found myself alone in the middle of nowhere is getting embarrassing...

 

Great fun though...

 

Edited February 3, 2020 by Domestos

[Theodore_Morgan]

I believe they use the formation stablished on the waypoints on your "O" map. Mouse over can show you that. About bugging out, that is the way it is. I feel left out and discriminated as an user commander.

[Lusekofte]

Ai is real bastards when it comes to help you. 
I like to fly bombers in sp and they do not tell you when to drop. So you have to fly formation an keep track of where you are and operate the levelbomb device

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

30 minutes ago, LuseKofte said:

 
I like to fly bombers in sp and they do not tell you when to drop. 

 

That's really weird.  They used to.

[Yogiflight]

2 hours ago, J28w-Broccoli said:

2 hours ago, LuseKofte said:

 
I like to fly bombers in sp and they do not tell you when to drop. 

 

That's really weird.  They used to.

In my Ju88 career they still do. I hear the message to prepare for bombing and then the 'Bomben los' command. But lately they started to, sometimes, fly a circle about half a minute before bomb drop. Very annoying.

[Lusekofte]

Well I love to fly formation and being the “new guy” back in formation. They said nothing in my attempts so I might have a go at it again. I do not mind operating the levelbomb device but going to pilot position they have dissapeared again 

[Yogiflight]

4 hours ago, LuseKofte said:

I do not mind operating the levelbomb device but going to pilot position they have dissapeared again 

You mean after dropping the bombs? I find it quite odd, how they go into a hard turn immediately after dropping the bombs and dive down to 2000m. To me it doesn't look realistic, how they behave.

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

43 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

You mean after dropping the bombs? I find it quite odd, how they go into a hard turn immediately after dropping the bombs and dive down to 2000m. To me it doesn't look realistic, how they behave.

 

Must be modelling AI behavior on player behavior in multiplayer.

[Yogiflight]

2 hours ago, J28w-Broccoli said:

Must be modelling AI behavior on player behavior in multiplayer.

I don't think so. As far as I know, noone is flying bombers in MP above tree level

[blitze]

33 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

I don't think so. As far as I know, noone is flying bombers in MP above tree level

Yeah, it's been a while since I was online and flying a bomber.  I usually head to the clouds and do cloud hopping to ingres to target. ?

[BraveSirRobin]

54 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

I don't think so. As far as I know, noone is flying bombers in MP above tree level

I fly at cloud level in route to targets all the time.

[Lusekofte]

10 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

You mean after dropping the bombs? I find it quite odd, how they go into a hard turn immediately after dropping the bombs and dive down to 2000m. To me it doesn't look realistic, how they behave.

Yes if you not in pilot position and looking at them they vanish and are nowhere to be found after dropping bombs

8 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

I don't think so. As far as I know, noone is flying bombers in MP above tree level

Low flying planes light up and shows miles away. Smartest thing to do is go above 5 k

[Yogiflight]

2 hours ago, LuseKofte said:

Yes if you not in pilot position and looking at them they vanish and are nowhere to be found after dropping bombs

Usually they turn to the heading to the next waypoint, while diving to 1.8-1.9k, but sometimes they fly a 360 over the target. I always look for the heading to the waypoint after the target, before reaching it, so I know in which direction I have to turn, when loosing them out of sight. Then I glide down to 1.8k and look for them. I don't like that diving down of the bombers.

[PatrickAWlson]

18 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

You mean after dropping the bombs? I find it quite odd, how they go into a hard turn immediately after dropping the bombs and dive down to 2000m. To me it doesn't look realistic, how they behave.

 

An educated guess: the bombing is triggered by an Attack Area MCU.  Upon completion that links to next action, probably a waypoint.  If that waypoint is at 2K meters altitude then the bombers will do exactly what they are told to do.  The approach to target, level bomb altitude, and egress should be the same altitude to prevent this.  

[Yogiflight]

39 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

An educated guess: the bombing is triggered by an Attack Area MCU.  Upon completion that links to next action, probably a waypoint.  If that waypoint is at 2K meters altitude then the bombers will do exactly what they are told to do.  The approach to target, level bomb altitude, and egress should be the same altitude to prevent this.  

Yes this surely would be the workaround for this AI. For the long term AI behaviour should be changed in a way, that they don't do everything with maximum, like flying only hard turns, which looks very odd when bombers are doing it, especially with max fuel and full bomb load, diving down, when they have to go to a lower altitude, instead of gliding in a shallow angle, or throttling up with max power instead of increasing power for some percent until they reach the wanted speed. Or in your cold start missions you can see how AI turns when taxing to the start, they break down until they stand and then turn on the spot. It is always all or nothing.

[falle96]

I am really quite awful at formation flying. I keep lagging behind or inching too close to the plane I'm watching (usually whoever is on my left-hand side, as MiGs at Moscow tend to fly echelon right, or whatever the formation is where it's descending in altitude from left to right).

 

Does anyone have any tips for this? I've gotten better, but I'm still a very awkward formation pilot.

[40plus]

34 minutes ago, FarflungWanderer said:

I am really quite awful at formation flying. I keep lagging behind or inching too close to the plane I'm watching (usually whoever is on my left-hand side, as MiGs at Moscow tend to fly echelon right, or whatever the formation is where it's descending in altitude from left to right).

 

Does anyone have any tips for this? I've gotten better, but I'm still a very awkward formation pilot.

 

Same here. Too slow, too fast, too slow, too fast . . . repeat ad nauseam

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

2 hours ago, pfrances said:

 

Same here. Too slow, too fast, too slow, too fast . . . repeat ad nauseam

 

It would help to know where the flight leader has his engine settings.  A quick "_______ ATA, ________ RPM" would be helpful.

[ShamrockOneFive]

9 hours ago, FarflungWanderer said:

I am really quite awful at formation flying. I keep lagging behind or inching too close to the plane I'm watching (usually whoever is on my left-hand side, as MiGs at Moscow tend to fly echelon right, or whatever the formation is where it's descending in altitude from left to right).

 

Does anyone have any tips for this? I've gotten better, but I'm still a very awkward formation pilot.

 

It takes time and practice and you need to keep doing it so that you get better. The best advice I have received is that you need to think ahead with your formation flying. So you aren't just flying where the leader is right now but where they are likely to be. Anticipate their moves and speed changes as much as possible. I also like to place the lead somewhere relative to my canopy frame and then just try and keep them around there.

 

Finally, and this may not work for everyone, I do a visualization in my head of the whole flight top down and try and paint myself into a spot inside that formation and then try and position myself there.

 

It's easier with most WWII aircraft as increasing the throttle results in nearly instant thrust increases. The 262 will be the hardest as thrust increase/decrease has to be done slowly.

 

Bottom line, keep practicing

[Yogiflight]

What helped me was, checking the speed instead of RPM and manifold pressure. Find out the speed of your flight and head for it.

What makes formation flying harder is the AI flying in front of you is usually not able to hold the speed. He constantly goes forward, backward. So concentrate on the Flightleader, he is the one giving the pace and he is keeping the speed.

Before the last update there was another issue, that the speed changed several times during a mission, at waypoints, but also between waypoints. But it seems this issue was solved with the higher cruising speeds since the last update.

[Barnacles]

5 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

What helped me was, checking the speed instead of RPM and manifold pressure. Find out the speed of your flight and head for it.

What makes formation flying harder is the AI flying in front of you is usually not able to hold the speed. He constantly goes forward, backward. So concentrate on the Flightleader, he is the one giving the pace and he is keeping the speed.

Before the last update there was another issue, that the speed changed several times during a mission, at waypoints, but also between waypoints. But it seems this issue was solved with the higher cruising speeds since the last update.

Absolutely. When you're driving a car, you don't ring up your mate in front and ask him how far his foot is pressing on the accelerator or what gear he's in, you just look at your speedo or just maintain a steady distance behind him. With a little practice it becomes second nature. 

[Charon]

On 2/4/2020 at 7:50 AM, FarflungWanderer said:

I am really quite awful at formation flying. I keep lagging behind or inching too close to the plane I'm watching (usually whoever is on my left-hand side, as MiGs at Moscow tend to fly echelon right, or whatever the formation is where it's descending in altitude from left to right).

 

Does anyone have any tips for this? I've gotten better, but I'm still a very awkward formation pilot.

 

Don't worry, it's not just you.

 

Quote

On the fifth day of the war there came an order: 'Fly to the front today!' Most of the men had not expected to be sent to the front so early. They had neither learned to fly in formation nor had they ever fired the guns!

...

When everything was ready, the squadrons took off one after another and headed to the north-west. The formation broke immediately and the planes flew in a disorderly swarm. Many pilots had not yet got used to the instruments in the cockpit and hand to find the switch they needed by reading the labels. It took a lot of time, and a as a result planes often came too close to their neighbors. The neighbor would dash aside, interfering with other planes, and so it was a complete mess that lasted for about half the journey. None of the wingmen used the huge maps, because they were too busy watching out for the other planes. Few of the pilots knew where they were flying. All hope rested with the leaders, and fortunately they did their job alright.

Vasily Emelianenko, 'Red Star Against the Swastika'

[CAFulcrum]

Yeah online flying formation is not nearly as difficult as the FL will usually give a throttle setting below maximum cruise and stick to it, so that you can adjust yourself if needed and then settle in without having to constantly adjust.  The AI seems like its caught in an oscillation or some sort of random accuracy mode where its constantly changing throttle.  I see black smoke a lot as well meaning they're pushing it to max for a short time and then hitting the mark, rather than slowly easing the throttle forward.  They also abruptly change speed with every waypoint, rather than turning in formation, which makes it even harder (aside from everyone in the flight taking their own route each every time they turn).  I notice this most in the waypoint after takeoff climb.

 

If the ai could just stick to a throttle setting (maybe adjusted for altitude as needed) for discreet legs in a flightplan instead of trying to hit a speed target it would make things easier.  It would be nice as well if there was some lag between hitting the waypoint and changing to a new speed setting (with a called out throttle/rpm, as suggested above) so that you can perform the turn together.  I would think that's how it was done in real life -- hit waypoint, make turn, then once the flight is stabilized adjust to new speed.