Pfalz D.XII historical engine correction / options

[Raptor341]

Good day,

 

Given that most sources report that the Pfalz D.XII was primarily, if not almost exclusively, operationally flown with the 200hp Daimler-Mercedes D.IIIau engine, is there any chance of a fix for this in FC? The BMW IIIa was not the primary power plant of this aircraft, and this should ideally be reflected in-game, unlike how it was in RoF. The BMW IIIa could be left in as an option for what-if or very late war scenarios but I would argue that for historical detail the main version of the Pfalz D.XII should be the D.IIIa/D.IIIau, not the BMW IIIa for if/when the Pfalz D.XII is brought over to FC. 

 

Cheers,

 

Raptor341  

Edited January 29, 2020 by Raptor341

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

We can't even get an overcompressed mercedes for our D7; and the way things are looking, there isn't going to be a Pfalz 12 to put it into anyways.

 

Maybe if FC experiences a sales renaissance.  Fingers crossed.

Edited January 29, 2020 by J28w-Broccoli

[Zooropa_Fly]

We don't currently have a DXII. I'd have preferred it in FC1 to the DIIIa, and certainly hope it'll feature in FC2 given the current set. 

[BMA_Hellbender]

12 minutes ago, Raptor341 said:

Good day,

 

Given that most sources report that the Pfalz D.XII was primarily, if not almost exclusively, operationally flown with the 200hp Daimler-Mercedes D.IIIau engine, is there any chance of a fix for this in FC? The BMW IIIa was not the primary power plant of this aircraft, and this should ideally be reflected in-game, unlike how it was in RoF. The BMW IIIa could be left in as an option for what-if or very late war scenarios but I would argue that for historical detail the main version of the Pfalz D.XII should be the D.IIIa/D.IIIau, not the BMW IIIa for if/when the Pfalz D.XII is brought over to FC. 

 

Cheers,

 

Raptor341  

 

The original neoQB developers unfortunately got rather confused with the whole 160/170/175/180/200 ps/hp ratings of the Mercedes D.III/D.IIIa/D.IIIa(ü) and its variants, and some of the earliest released planes simply don't have the correct engine.

 

 

The Fokker D.VII, which was in the original 2009 release, has a 170ps/180hp D.IIIa, whereas the early production model which competed at Adlershof in january 1918 had a 160ps/175hp D.III (Anthony Fokker couldn't get his hands on any D.IIIa). The operational model from May 1918 had a 180ps/200hp D.IIIa(ü).

 

Same problem for the Albatros D.Va, which was already equipped with a 180ps/200hp D.IIIa(ü) at Adlershof, which along with a reinforced lower wing spar set it apart from the earlier Albatros D.V. What we have in RoF/FC is an Albatros D.Va airframe with an Albatros D.V engine, which is to say, the 170ps/180hp D.IIIa.

 

The Pfalz D.IIIa is for all intents and purposes correct with its 170ps/180hp D.IIIa (and the reason why it handles better overall than our current Albatros D.V/D.Va hybrid, in reality it had a weaker engine than the D.Va). It would also have been upgraded to 180ps/200hp D.IIIa(ü) by the summer of 1918.

 

When the Pfalz D.XII was first developed, after the Fokker D.VIIF, it was decided to give it the same engine 232hp BMW IIIa engine, since equipped with the existing 170ps/180hp D.IIIa, it performed worse than the Pfalz D.IIIa.

 

Only when the Halberstadt CL.II was developed did they finally realise that what had been missing all along was the 180ps/200hp D.IIIa(ü).

 

 

According to a recent Q&A with Jason, they are very much aware of all this, are very much willing to revisit, but the possibility of it happening is close to 0.

 

As always, it's a money problem. I'd be thrilled if we get to see a Pfalz D.XII in FC at all.

[Cynic_Al]

1 hour ago, Raptor341 said:

The BMW IIIa could be left in as an option for what-if or very late war scenarios but I would argue that for historical detail the main version of the Pfalz D.XII should be the D.IIIa/D.IIIau, not the BMW IIIa for if/when the Pfalz D.XII is brought over to FC. 

 

We can advise about that if and when the DXII is announced for future inclusion.

[Sgt_Joch]

15 hours ago, J5_Hellbender-Sch27b said:

 

The Fokker D.VII, which was in the original 2009 release, has a 170ps/180hp D.IIIa, whereas the early production model which competed at Adlershof in january 1918 had a 160ps/175hp D.III (Anthony Fokker couldn't get his hands on any D.IIIa). The operational model from May 1918 had a 180ps/200hp D.IIIa(ü).

 

Same problem for the Albatros D.Va, which was already equipped with a 180ps/200hp D.IIIa(ü) at Adlershof, which along with a reinforced lower wing spar set it apart from the earlier Albatros D.V. What we have in RoF/FC is an Albatros D.Va airframe with an Albatros D.V engine, which is to say, the 170ps/180hp D.IIIa.

 

a lot of info is lost in time, but the Devs have it mostly right.

 

The standard engine for the Alb DVa was the D.IIIa. The planes used at Adlershof were prototypes. There is no existing documents showing that the production Alb ever used the D.IIIau engine. The problem for us is that mercedes listed all engines as D.III so you have to guess at the sub-types. There were several threads at the Aerodrome forum that showed that the shift in production of the D.IIIa to the D.IIIau probably happened 2-3 months after production of the Alb. DVa stopped, so it is doubtful any production Alb. DVa ever received the D.IIIau engine.

 

For the Fokker D.VII, the situation is the reverse, production seems to have started 2-3 months before the D.IIIau was available, so again based on estimated guesses, it looks like the first 400-500 D.VIIs would have had the D.IIIa engine like we have in game. What is missing is the D.IIIau variant that later D.VIIs were equipped with.

 

The one engine which seems to be clearly wrong is on the Halberstadt CL.II since there is no proof it was ever equipped with the D.IIIau engine. The D.IIIau was in high demand and was reserved for the D.VII and some other specialized types. 

Edited January 30, 2020 by Sgt_Joch

[BMA_Hellbender]

1 hour ago, Sgt_Joch said:

a lot of info is lost in time, but the Devs have it mostly right.

 

The standard engine for the Alb DVa was the D.IIIa. The planes used at Adlershof were prototypes. There is no existing documents showing that the production Alb ever used the D.IIIau engine. The problem for us is that mercedes listed all engines as D.III so you have to guess at the sub-types. There were several threads at the Aerodrome forum that showed that the shift in production of the D.IIIa to the D.IIIau probably happened 2-3 months after production of the Alb. DVa stopped, so it is doubtful any production Alb. DVa ever received the D.IIIau engine.

For the Fokker D.VII, the situation is the reverse, production seems to have started 2-3 months before the D.IIIau was available, so again based on estimated guesses, it looks like the first 400-500 D.VIIs would have had the D.IIIa engine like we have in game. What is missing is the D.IIIau variant that later D.VIIs were equipped with.

 

No, the D.IIIa and D.IIIaü were one and the same engine.

 

There was never a shift in production, only factory conversion to overcompression of a number of very late D.IIIa engines, others were converted in the field. Conversion kits were available to both Jastas and Schlastas sometime mid-1918 and virtually every single D.IIIa block had been converted to D.IIIaü by late summer. The same may have happened to older D.III blocks, as they were also close to identical to the D.IIIa.

 

Albatros D.V and D.Va technical data from German Aircraft of the First World War, Gray & Thetford (1962):

 

 

 

Quote

The one engine which seems to be clearly wrong is on the Halberstadt CL.II since there is no proof it was ever equipped with the D.IIIau engine. The D.IIIau was in high demand and was reserved for the D.VII and some other specialized types. 

 

No, same as above: initially equipped with a 170ps D.IIIa (180hp British post-war measurement), then field converted to 180ps (200hp British post-war measurement), or equipped with a converted 180ps engine straight from the factory. The Halberstadt CL.IV would have received further overcompressed engines, still.

 

Aircraft Engines from Schlachtflieger! Germany and the Origins of Air/Ground Support 1916-1918, Duiven & Abbott (2006):

 

 

 

[Sgt_Joch]

Aircraft profile series, 1965. 

Alb Dva only listed as having a D.IIIa engine.

 

 

 

Only mention of a D.IIIau engine is on the prototype used at Aldershof:

 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

One book without linked sources can't be reliable source. I do have many books about those particular airplanes,  some are very interesting because made or sources to  Polish army witch had used Albs and Fokkers after armistice.

[BMA_Hellbender]

8 minutes ago, Sgt_Joch said:

Aircraft profile series, 1965. 

Alb Dva only listed as having a D.IIIa engine.

 

 

 

The Profile publication uses German Aircraft of the First World War by Gray & Thetford as its source. In fact, it was written by Peter Gray himself. He even copied the whole line: "basically standard DIII engine with higher compression ratio, later over-size cylinders and pistons were fitted".

 

This, by the way, is what the D.IIIaü is: a higher compression ratio conversion of the D.IIIa. The D.IIIaüv is when they fitted over-size cylinders and pistons. In official documents, these would have been called the 180ps and 200ps D.IIIa. That said, I haven't found any references of the Albatros D.Va flying with the D.IIIaüv, but since they even did the conversion on ground attack aircraft such as the Halberstadt CL.IV, we can assume that at least some D.Vas still in service in October/November 1918 had the D.IIIa(üv) overcompression and over-size cylinders.

 

I still believe that much of the confusion comes from the fact that 1ps = 1hp (0.98hp, to be exact), but that the British post-war measurements end up with different values.

 

Whenever you read 180hp D.IIIa, you have to wonder, did they mean the German measurement (180ps), hence with overcompression, or is it the British post-war measurement of the 170ps D.IIIa.

 

 

23 minutes ago, Sgt_Joch said:

Only mention of a D.IIIau engine is on the prototype used at Aldershof:

 

 

The reason it's almost never mentioned by name is because the "ü" and later "üv" designations were not official. These engines were still the same D.IIIa block.

[Sgt_Joch]

Here is the thread I was referring to, it is rather a long read, but based on actual original Mercedes factory documents; It backs up my original post.

 

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48085

[BMA_Hellbender]

26 minutes ago, Sgt_Joch said:

Here is the thread I was referring to, it is rather a long read, but based on actual original Mercedes factory documents; It backs up my original post.

 

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48085

 

I skimmed through it, and while it's indeed a very interesting read, it talks about new engines delivered from the factory, which were for the most part already factory converted to overcompression.

 

Since production of the Albatros D.Va ended in April 1918, obviously all new engines went (mostly) to the Fokker D.VII.

 

 

Still, all D.IIIa engines (and even surviving D.III engines, if they hadn't been retrofitted to D.IIIa standards already) would be retrofitted with overcompression:

 

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50297

 

And the relevant post:

 

 

Hello,
a lot of former D.III and D.IIIa engines with 160-175 hp were rebuilt to the D.IIIaü standard of 180-185 hp, in 1918.
In 1918, almost all later Albatros D.V and D.Vas, all Pfalz D.IIIas and a lot of Fokker D.VIIs were flown with the D.III aü engine, no D.III engine anymore.
In Zuerl's book and in another technical engineering book from 1920 i read about a 200 hp D.IIIavü engine and pilots flying their Alb. D.V at 200+ km/h. I found this interesting, but have never managed to get evidence. I know the D.IV did have 200-220 hp, but this was an 8-cyl. engine only used in two-seaters.

" ... In 1918 the Mercedes D.IIIaü 180hp was the standard engine in Pfalz D.IIIa, Albatros late built D.V and all D.Va types starting in late 1917 and then the Fokker D.VII through 1918 ..." (translated)
[Some of the D.VIIs certainly used the stronger BMW engines, rated at 200-220 hp]

The idea that the D.III(a) 160-175 hp engines were still used in 1918 is based on the misconception derived from the examination of some captured german planes, which still had the "160 hp" casted in the crankcases of their engines, while those earlier D.III and IIIa engines had been rebuilt to the aü standard just using the older crankcase. The rocker covers had been moved backwards, but rocker arms and springs still were at the initial place.

 

 

Whether the Albatros really did reach speeds of up to 200km/h is a matter of debate.

 

What I don't find so hard to believe is that engines were still being serviced and retrofitted during overhauls. Tecnology didn't just stop in the summer of 1917. The same is true for the French and British, who were also continuously retrofitting their engines with higher compression ratios, and not all of it was equally well documented. At least with the British we know that they switched from purchased Hispano-Suiza 8b to the license built Wolseley Viper V8, which was a higher compression variant of the H-S 8b. The same is true for the SPAD XIII, though the block itself remained the H-S 8b till the end of the war.

 

Purely from a gameplay perspective, and this is what it's all about in the end, it makes sense to have as many engine variants as possible.

 

They could even be sold to us, for money. Now here's a novel idea!

[Sgt_Joch]

Hi,

 

My problem with your initial post is that you seemed to be implying that the Devs screwed up and put the wrong engines in the Alb. DVa and the F. D.VII. Both were produced with the D.IIIa engine so what we have in game is correct. The F.D.VII was also produced with the D.IIIau engine so no issue there.

 

No what about the Alb D.Va? looking at production numbers, it seems none were produced with the D.IIIau engine. Could some have been later upgraded with D.IIIau engine? maybe, although there is no documentary evidence this was done. What argues against the "upgrade" theory is that Mercedes D.IIIa/au engines were in short supply and high demand in 1918. Alb. Dva were obsolete and increasingly being worn out. Would the Germans have used their limited supply to upgrade obsolete D.Va? You had around 400 D.VII with mercedes engine being produced every month. It would have made more sense to use any spare parts or upgrade kits to keep the D.VIIs in operation or to upgrade the initial run of D.VIIs with D.IIIa engine.

 

This is also discussed in the thread I posted above, i.e. 

 

Quote

Good evening,
I accept your point and can only say that my information is that Albatros D.Va production ended in April 1918 and that it would have been totally illogical for the uberverdichtete motor to have been installed in the D.Va as standard at that late date when all production would have been needed for the Fokker D.VII and Pfalz D.XII. It would have been madness for Idflieg to allow these motors be used on the D.Va.
It is perfectly reasonable to speculate that reconditioned D.IIIau motors were fitted to surviving D.Va's as they became required but the priority requirement must have been the D.VII and the D.XII.

With regards,

Mike.

 

and this from the thread you posted. 

 

Quote

The information on the 1500 uberverdictete pistons becoming available on a monthly basis is from the Daimler A.G. archives in Stuttgart. Major rebuilds took place in Aachen, Brussels and there are reports of a facility at Adlershof.
As 1918 progressed, an increasing amount of motors were brought up to the standards of new-build D.IIIau's but wastage will have to be taken into consideration before assuming that all motors were brought up to a consistant standard by late 1918. Mercedes D.IIIau's were in chronic short supply and there are reports of as many as 10% of Fokker D.VII's being delivered from the factories without motors.

Zuerl's Pour-le-Merite is, I'm afraid, a particularily bad historical reference and tales of Albatros D.V and D.Va's powered by Mercedes D.IIIavu motors at 200kph are to be taken with a pinch of salt, it never happened. A small number of Fokker D.VII's were fitted with this motor in November 1918, but none saw Front service

 

but no one has the answer either way. Certainly, if the devs want to offer a Alb D.Va with a D.IIIau engine, I would buy it.

Edited January 31, 2020 by Sgt_Joch

[BMA_Hellbender]

On 1/31/2020 at 6:09 PM, Sgt_Joch said:

Hi,

My problem with your initial post is that you seemed to be implying that the Devs screwed up and put the wrong engines in the Alb. DVa and the F. D.VII. Both were produced with the D.IIIa engine so what we have in game is correct. The F.D.VII was also produced with the D.IIIau engine so no issue there.

 

They did screw up.

 

The initial batch of Fokker D.VII came with the 160ps (175hp) Mercedes D.III, because Fokker couldn't get his hands on the D.IIIa that was reserved for the Albatros and Pfalz. This is how it competed at Adlershof in January 1918, and how it beat the Albatros D.Va equipped with a 180ps (200hp) Mercedes D.IIIa with overcompression (I'll just stop saying D.IIIaü from now on) and the Pfalz D.IIIa equipped with a 170ps (180hp) Mercedes D.IIIa without overcompression.

 

For the record: the Pfalz D.IIIa in RoF/FC is about 10km/h too slow. Its top speed was around 181km/h on the deck (the Albatros D.Va 185km/h).

 

It's actually my fault that the Pfalz' top speed is 171km/h, as I pointed out to the devs that the actual top speed measured in-game was 177km/h, and instead of bringing it up to 181, they brought it back down to 171, the old RoF figure.

 

I'm not invited to any Pfalz parties anymore.

 

 

Quote

No what about the Alb D.Va? looking at production numbers, it seems none were produced with the D.IIIau engine. Could some have been later upgraded with D.IIIau engine? maybe, although there is no documentary evidence this was done. What argues against the "upgrade" theory is that Mercedes D.IIIa/au engines were in short supply and high demand in 1918. Alb. Dva were obsolete and increasingly being worn out. Would the Germans have used their limited supply to upgrade obsolete D.Va? You had around 400 D.VII with mercedes engine being produced every month.

 

No single Albatros D.Va ever left the factory with overcompression installed. It was a field conversion.

 

The Albatros D.V (non-a) was a terrible machine which didn't perform any better than the Albatros D.III, suffered from wing failures and which its pilots hated. The Albatros D.Va was Albatros last ditch effort to save the design, which they did by strengthening the lower wing (and some other minor improvements), but it failed to alleviate the real issue (vibrations of the lower wing spar) and made the machine heavier, and thus it needed a better engine to remain competitive, which it got.

 

 

Quote

It would have made more sense to use any spare parts or upgrade kits to keep the D.VIIs in operation or to upgrade the initial run of D.VIIs with D.IIIa engine.

I accept your point and can only say that my information is that Albatros D.Va production ended in April 1918 and that it would have been totally illogical for the uberverdichtete motor to have been installed in the D.Va as standard at that late date when all production would have been needed for the Fokker D.VII and Pfalz D.XII.

 

Sense, logic, reason, they're all good arguments — but I disagree: this was politics.

 

Albatros-Flugzeugwerke GmbH (Ltd. / Inc.) was a German manufacturer. The German manufacturer, located in Johannisthal, Berlin. It was the very symbol of Prussian air superiority. Not those plebs from the Palatinate (Pfalz) and certainly not some cold hard Dutch businessman (Fokker), no matter how good his machines were, and who even refused to naturalise as a German citizen.

 

By April 1918 it had become clear that the charade was over, especially when MvR himself declared the Albatros "so utterly bad as to be unable to do anything with this machine", how he begged to receive the Fokker D.VII, even without overcompression, and how he eventually died in an older Fokker.  Later tests of captured D.Vas by S.E.5a pilots revealed that it was simply worse than their machines in every single respect, including sustained turn. Mock dogfights with replicas come to the same conclusion.

 

What we have in RoF/FC is a very optimistic rendition of the D.Va's flight characteristics. In some ways it handles better than the D.III. In reality, it would have handled worse, and simply been faster at altitude because of overcompression (full throttle at sea level was forbidden). I suspect in part because the developers realised that a historically more accurately handling D.Va would have been useless in every respect using the exact same engine as the D.III, and because they didn't realise that it did, in fact, have overcompression.

 

Speaking of the Albatros D.III, it would have begun its career with the 160ps (175hp) Mercedes D.III, then transitioned to the 170ps (180hp) Mercedes D.IIIa, and finally surviving Albatros D.III which operated well into 1918 would equally have received field overcompression bringing them up to 180ps (200hp), as every other Mercedes D.IIIa-engine equipped machine still in service.

 

If we're still talking about how planes left the factory with overcompression, then we're in agreement: only the Fokker D.VII, as of April 1918 (and the Pfalz D.XII later on, lest we forget what this thread is about). Even then the conversion was done after the engine block was already installed on the machine.

 

 

 

Quote

The information on the 1500 uberverdictete pistons becoming available on a monthly basis is from the Daimler A.G. archives in Stuttgart. Major rebuilds took place in Aachen, Brussels and there are reports of a facility at Adlershof.
As 1918 progressed, an increasing amount of motors were brought up to the standards of new-build D.IIIau's but wastage will have to be taken into consideration before assuming that all motors were brought up to a consistant standard by late 1918. Mercedes D.IIIau's were in chronic short supply and there are reports of as many as 10% of Fokker D.VII's being delivered from the factories without motors.

Zuerl's Pour-le-Merite is, I'm afraid, a particularily bad historical reference and tales of Albatros D.V and D.Va's powered by Mercedes D.IIIavu motors at 200kph are to be taken with a pinch of salt, it never happened. A small number of Fokker D.VII's were fitted with this motor in November 1918, but none saw Front service

 

Agreed on both accounts: Albatros was still being prioritised up until mid-1918, when Idflieg and the Kogenluft finally conceded that the Fokker D.VII was the way forward.

 

As for the D.IIIa with overcompression and oversized cylinders (vü), good luck finding any records about it. That's a hard maybe from me as well. I tend to trust Duiven and Abbott when they say that the Halberstadt CL.IV used the 200ps (no idea how many hp by British standards) D.IIIa, as the Schlastas were pretty much winning them what was left of the ground war in terms of close infantry support. By that time the BMW IIIa was available in some numbers anyway.

 

And if you were still flying an Albatros in October 1918, you must have seriously pissed off someone higher up.

[J2_Trupobaw]

Plane was not running the same engine it left factory with  through all its life. All engines have to be overhauled after they exceed running time (in hours) or service time (in months). Mercedes engines were replaced and sent back to Flugparks for through overhaul. In case of Mercedes D.IIIa, from ~April 1918 on overhaul included routine upgrade to D.IIIaü. By summer 1918 it's unlikely that there were any D.IIIa engines in operational planes left that avoided getting upgraded - and there is no evidence of such unupgraded engines being used. If it was Mercedes, it got overcompressed. If you wanted replacement engine, it was either built overcompressed or got overcompressed in last overhaul. Even in Halberstadt.

By the time of Armistice Albatrosen were widely used in home defence Staffeln, flying dawn patrols to catch British night bombers returning from Germany.

Edited February 4, 2020 by J2_Trupobaw

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

In Polish muzeum im Kraków they have both engines D.iii and D.iiia , D.iii is operational  in Halberstatd Cl.II where it was originally mounted. D.iii is rated as 160 hp (118kW) and "Max speed " of this  Halb is labeled as 165km/h. The Diiia is rated as 177hp and this was mounted in Albatross D.III , they mention that this type was also mounted in Pfalz D.III i Junkers CL.I , they do not mention Albatross DV.

Edited February 13, 2020 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[J2_Trupobaw]

Bear in mind that Halberstadt they have was not uset operationally, it was von Hoeppners' personal hack, and that information they give is likely third-hand. I love visiting expositions there, but carefree appraoch to details they present made me cringe until I grew to expect it. 

[TWC_Ace]

On 1/30/2020 at 12:48 AM, J28w-Broccoli said:

We can't even get an overcompressed mercedes for our D7

 

Thats is really odd that 3d party team just didnt change the few notches in the FMs code and made the most common engine for D7 possible...

Edited February 13, 2020 by =VARP=Tvrdi

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

25 minutes ago, =VARP=Tvrdi said:

 

Thats is really odd that 3d party team just didnt change the few notches in the FMs code and made the most common engine for D7 possible...

 

This has been asked for practically since the D7 came out for RoF.  The request is no different than the OP asking for the same engine to be put in the pfalz.

 

Point was, it isn't happening.

Edited February 13, 2020 by J28w-Broccoli

[TWC_Ace]

54 minutes ago, J28w-Broccoli said:

 

This has been asked for practically since the D7 came out for RoF.  The request is no different than the OP asking for the same engine to be put in the pfalz.

 

Point was, it isn't happening.

Unfortunately I know very well what was asked, from ROF days....but hey....its history now and it repeats like always

Edited February 13, 2020 by =VARP=Tvrdi

[BMA_Hellbender]

10 hours ago, =VARP=Tvrdi said:

Thats is really odd that 3d party team just didnt change the few notches in the FMs code and made the most common engine for D7 possible...

 

The third party team only does the 3D modeling, texturing and animations. FM is in the hands of the devs. For a D.IIIau D7 they'd have to make a new plane with that engine. In practise the visual change is minimal, though. Halberstadt CL.II and CL.IIau skins are identical, only the engine block looks different.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

8 hours ago, J5_Hellbender said:

 

 

 

18 hours ago, =VARP=Tvrdi said:

 

Thats is really odd that 3d party team just didnt change the few notches in the FMs code and made the most common engine for D7 possible...

 

Devs  did not recallulated FMs during port to Il2GB. Lots of them where made 10 years ago by guy who long time left. 

As chief said for them it would be easier to recalculate planes from scratch rather than try fix existing ones.

So any  revaluation would be reasonable only when they move whole genre to next generation FM framework. I agree with it. That years to wait unfortunately and nothig for sure. Only time for ww2  content now. Enjoy what you have

Edited February 14, 2020 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[HagarTheHorrible]

Is the FM of the “f” different to the vanilla VII ?  

 

If it isn’t, it shows what a difference a simple engine power change can do for an aircrafts chances.  A re-working  a more sophisticated model of how engines are managed, within the game, rather than the one size fits all that we have at present,  might provide some variety, without the need to re-visit (V very unlikely) the FM’s.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

53 minutes ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

Is the FM of the “f” different to the vanilla VII ?  

 

If it isn’t, it shows what a difference a simple engine power change can do for an aircrafts chances.  A re-working  a more sophisticated model of how engines are managed, within the game, rather than the one size fits all that we have at present,  might provide some variety, without the need to re-visit (V very unlikely) the FM’s.

You can't take engine from FM it's part of it .

[J2_Trupobaw]

1 hour ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

You can't take engine from FM it's part of it .

Jain.

[HagarTheHorrible]

38 minutes ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

Jain.

???????

[J2_Trupobaw]

Ja aber nein.

[HagarTheHorrible]

That’s what I thought. ?