Did the Luftwaffe use bombs during Operation Bodenplatte?

[JG7_X-Man]

I would say after reading the book Alan Turing: The Enigma for a post graduate level statistics class: Even with the probability of a 100% Luftwaffe success, the outcome would not have changed the course of the war by no more than a few months at most.

 

This mission would have been one of the ones they would not have pass along.

[LukeFF]

14 minutes ago, JG7_X-Man said:

 

LOL - the correct response, they "probably" didn't

 

LOL, no, the correct response is they didn't know the attack was coming. The (abundant) research done about this attack clearly bears that out. If the Allies knew the attack was coming, they would have had fighters up in force, ready to pounce on the Germans as soon as they showed themselves. The flight logs from the evening prior / morning of the attack show that January 1st was planned to be just another day at the front.

Edited January 29, 2020 by LukeFF

[Gambit21]

25 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

LOL, no, the correct response is they didn't know the attack was coming. The (abundant) research done about this attack clearly bears that out. If the Allies knew the attack was coming, they would have had fighters up in force, ready to pounce on the Germans as soon as they showed themselves. The flight logs from the evening prior / morning of the attack show that January 1st was planned to be just another day at the front.

 

Yep

 

There was ONE guy who on his own, had a feeling. That man was J.C. Meyer of the 352nd. Thus the “Legend of Y-29”

 

If even one guy from one base actually KNEW, then every squadron from every base on the front would have alerted, and would have been orbiting and waiting.

 

As it was, 9th Air Force control didn’t even want to let Meyers flight into the air since they were officially tasked with an escort flight later in the day.

 

The thought of even a single person finding out and just sitting on the information is a bit silly.

 

[BlitzPig_EL]

The supply of tin foil for the making of hats has never been in doubt on this forum.

 

?

[JG7_X-Man]

17 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

The supply of tin foil for the making of hats has never been in doubt on this forum.

 

?

 

I see - The idea that someone can sit in an office and make life and death decisions for others is so far fetched? That's "Blue Collar" mentality at its finest.

[Avimimus]

38 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

The supply of tin foil for the making of hats has never been in doubt on this forum.

 

?

 

It is all the duraluminum from crashed planes being around... easy to get hold of.

 

Anyway, I suspect that they could have passed off such warning as a leak from a spy. I believe that cracking Engima created a bit of an internal panic lookng for high-level spies at more than one points.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Avimimus

[JG7_X-Man]

6 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

 

It is all the duraluminum from crashed planes being around... easy to get hold of.

 

Anyway, I suspect that they could have passed off such warning as a leak from a spy. I believe that cracking Engima created a bit of an internal panic lookng for high-level spies at more than one points.

Another deep thinker!

[Gambit21]

2 minutes ago, JG7_X-Man said:

Another deep thinker!

 

You’re starting to spiral down the same path that you typically do when challenged on anything. You start throwing insults, get the expected response, then it’s on. The G-force effect thread from a while back is another good example, where you were making the same kinds of inane, childish posts insisting that the photos of pilots wearing dress pants and flight gear were not staged...shall I post a link?

 

Or... would you like to take this opportunity to start building a new history, and maybe a shred of credibility? This is a good of a time as any don’t you think?

 

If you have some data to share that’s legit, then by all means share it. 

 

 

 

 

[dburne]

7 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

That's because there are no bombers to intercept.

 

Well that makes sense then.  I enjoy those bomber intercepts though.

[BlitzPig_EL]

1 hour ago, JG7_X-Man said:

 

I see - The idea that someone can sit in an office and make life and death decisions for others is so far fetched? That's "Blue Collar" mentality at its finest.

 

And you are?

 

Straight to the ad hominem, what a guy.

[unreasonable]

5 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

 

Exactly 

Any other conclusion means you’re buying into a delusion/revisionist history and you need different books.

 

 

With that mindset it is not the books that are the problem.

 

3 hours ago, KW_1979 said:

One of the primary reasons that Bodenplatte was only briefed to the pilots at the last minute and that the German AAA had no idea there would be large formations of friendly aircraft overhead was that the Germans had finally gotten a clue that their signals were compromised.

 

Some German aircraft were shot down by their own AAA, but only 15-35 according to Manhro/Putz, depending on how you count the unknowns.  The Allied bases also had no warning of the attack.  The principal cause of losses (~47%) was Allied LAA, at the front line but mainly at the bases.  The problem was that the German pilots were told to circle and strafe until all ammunition was used, which gave the LAA time to wake up. One hit from a 40mm Bofors is usually enough to down a 109 or Fw190.   Had they only made one pass each, they would have destroyed fewer aircraft on the ground but suffered far fewer losses.   

 

The operation would still have been pointless: but then all of the German resistance was pointless by this stage.

[Gambit21]

57 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

German pilots were told to circle and strafe until all ammunition was used, 

 

Thanks - that’s a little piece that I hadn’t heard before. I’m glad because I have the German AC lingering, making multiple passes before finally heading home. I did it for gameplay reasons and wasn't sure how historical it was - now I know.

[Krisu]

6 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

 

You’re starting to spiral down the same path that you typically do when challenged on anything. You start throwing insults, get the expected response, then it’s on. The G-force effect thread from a while back is another good example, where you were making the same kinds of inane, childish posts insisting that the photos of pilots wearing dress pants and flight gear were not staged...shall I post a link?

 

Or... would you like to take this opportunity to start building a new history, and maybe a shred of credibility? This is a good of a time as any don’t you think?

 

If you have some data to share that’s legit, then by all means share it. 

 

 

 

 

lol...the drama on this forum is pretty entertaining sometimes 

[Kurfurst]

14 hours ago, JG7_X-Man said:

Not sure what the argument here is - this mission was the straw that broke the Luftwaffe's back.

The Soviet Air Force, which suffered the last desperate blows from the Luftwaffe after it throw everything against them from late January would probably differ in that. The Soviets lost thousands of planes to the Luftwaffe in the last few months, they did n out have it so easy. There was an insane amount of bloodletting going on in the East  right until the fall of Berlin, at which point the LW literally run out of fuel.
 

This was a very different air war than the West at which they left only a token number of aircraft which basically only harassment and curiously, fighter bomber and strafing sorties against advancing Western Allied armies. While bombs were not used in Bodenplatte, Luftwaffe Jabo sorties were in fact a daily routine  in the autumn, December and the spring of 1945, using bombs, cluster bombs and rockets (21cm WGr).

[Bremspropeller]

53 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

The Soviet Air Force, which suffered the last desperate blows from the Luftwaffe after it throw everything against them from late January would probably differ in that. The Soviets lost thousands of planes to the Luftwaffe in the last few months, they did n out have it so easy. There was an insane amount of bloodletting going on in the East  right until the fall of Berlin, at which point the LW literally run out of fuel.

 

That's mostly because they fought a tactical war, which was very similar in strategical thoughtfulness (none) as was the german idea of aerial warfare: Grund Supoort mostly.

They never tried to attack the german air force and thus were constantly at the recieving end of a comparatively well experienced and extremely motivated fighter-force.

 

[Sublime]

11 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

 

Thanks - that’s a little piece that I hadn’t heard before. I’m glad because I have the German AC lingering, making multiple passes before finally heading home. I did it for gameplay reasons and wasn't sure how historical it was - now I know.

That seems a bad tactical order. What if the strafing planes are bounced? Id save some and shoot it off near the friendly field irl

[Bremspropeller]

One could say that Bodenplatte bombed - even with no bombs used.

[MiloMorai]

7 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

This was a very different air war than the West at which they left only a token number of aircraft which basically only harassment and curiously, fighter bomber and strafing sorties against advancing Western Allied armies.

Jan 10 1945 there was 740 serviceable a/c in the East (Poland, Courland, Austria, Hungary, Balkans). Western Germany (Luftflotte 3) had 1452 serviceable a/c while Central Germany (Luftflotte Reich) had 1251 serviceable a/c. Total 2701 for the West

[LukeFF]

8 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

Luftwaffe Jabo sorties were in fact a daily routine  in the autumn, December and the spring of 1945, using bombs, cluster bombs and rockets (21cm WGr).

 

Not in late 1944 and certainly not before around February 1945 in the fighter units. To give one example, you won't see any fighter-bomber missions flown by III./JG 54 (outside of Bodenplatte) until February 1945.

Edited January 30, 2020 by LukeFF

[Kurfurst]

2 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

Not in late 1944 and certainly not before around February 1945 in the fighter units.

 

That's a bold claim.

 

2 hours ago, LukeFF said:

To give one example, you won't see any fighter-bomber missions flown by III./JG 54 (outside of Bodenplatte) until February 1945.

 

To give a few examples.

 

 

 

[LukeFF]

11 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

To give a few examples.

 

Fair enough.  The info I received from someone else here earlier was obviously inaccurate.

 

EDIT: are there any examples of Bf 109s carrying out ground attack missions during this time? 

Edited January 31, 2020 by LukeFF

[MiloMorai]

JG26 only made 3 claims on Dec 17 1944.

 

Uffz. Rudolf Delor  4./JG 26 P -38 £ PN-ON at 3.000 m. [Hohe Venn] 

Uffz. Rudolf Delor  4./JG 26 P -38 £ PN-ON at 2.500 m. [Hohe Venn] 

Ltn. Joachim Günther  2./JG 26 P -38 £ PN-3/ON-12: 200-300 m. [Hohe Venn]

[[N.O.G.F]_Cathal_Brugha]

On 1/29/2020 at 10:44 AM, dburne said:

Well I can certainly say in my Spit Mk IX Career in Bodenplatte I have yet to see an enemy AI bomber.

I miss those bomber intercept missions...

 

On 1/29/2020 at 11:48 AM, PatrickAWlson said:

I thought some units were flying Ju88s almost to the end. 

Bombers were grounded sometime in the fall of 1944 to conserve fuel, and never really flew again. Some may have flown as recon, but they started using the arado jet for that.

[Alexmarine]

15 hours ago, [1/KG]_Cathal_Brugha said:

 

Bombers were grounded sometime in the fall of 1944 to conserve fuel, and never really flew again. Some may have flown as recon, but they started using the arado jet for that.

 

Units in the eastern front equipped with the He 111 flying mainly transport sorties appear to have survived into 1945 but indeed the bomber force ceased to exist in the summer/ autumn of 1944 with units being broken up to fill up fighter squadrons, being converted to fighters (both props and jets) or directly disbanded.

[LukeFF]

Alright, so I did some more digging and, yes, the Fw 190s assigned to Jagdkorps II indeed flew fighter-bomber missions during Market Garden (IV./JG 54, I./JG 26, and II./JG 26). I'm in the process of updating the file so that these units will have ground attack missions during that time frame.

 

Unfortunately, because of the way the Fw 190 F-8 is lumped in with the A-8, it's impossible to accurately depict Fw 190 A-8 fighter-bomber missions during the Ardennes Offensive, since there are also true daylight Fw 190 F-8 units on the map at the same time (SG 4, in particular). So, the only Fw 190 fighter-bomber missions you'll see during December 1944 will continue to be those of NSGr. 20 and SG 4.

Edited February 1, 2020 by LukeFF

[Lusekofte]

They should have been alerted. The germans suffered losses to flak on their way to target. 
But I guess it was a bit messy, inexperienced german pilots got lost so I guess the flightpath could nit be estemated

[LukeFF]

On 1/29/2020 at 5:23 AM, Sgt_Joch said:

SG4 had 190-F8s, but they only carried rockets, no bombs.

 

Good point - I'll make that change as well, since it doesn't interfere with any other Fw 190 units.