A question for those who lead a formation

[Feathered_IV]

What goes through your head here?

 

Just curious. If you're already flying at the maximum possible speed without killing your engine, how do you suppose the other person is going to form up on you? Is it a race, or do you just want to be alone? Do your exhortations to "close up!" override the other players CEM limitations? Maybe you don't care if anyone is following or not, which is why you like to fly in such an uncoordinated manner. Perhaps you never even look to see in the first place? When a fighter attacks, do you ease off the throttle to allow the best possible defensive formation? Or is it emergency power and every man for himself?

[MarcoRossolini]

I'm not veteran formation leader but as a general rule when I'm lead I go about 95% of my follower's setting so that they have a comfortable room for error. Works well for me.

 

What else is going through my head? Oh crap, what have I done to get this job... that's generally after a lot of conniving on my part to get the job in the first place...

Edited April 18, 2014 by MarcoRossolini

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

 When I was leading a formation it was first assembled and then used a certain power setting, mostly cruise, to make it easier for wingmen to keep up and conserve fuel. Radio commands were short and mostly without extra chatter going on..emphasis on mostly     

[SvAF/F19_Klunk]

as a member of a squad who obsessively fly in formations ( even when we shouldn't... but we rather die in style than to meet the objectives ).. i have to say speed control is really important. to fly in close formation takes a toll when it comes to sped; u have to adjust your position using all control surfaces and throttle settings constantly. that affects of course you speed and engine. we have a rule that when flying in formation in a non combat mode, keep cruise speed (lower rpm and throttle setting) that way all pilots in the formation can keep up and keep formation without busting the engine.

 

if we fly bombers its even more important, because as you said feathered, a good and effective defensive formation is the key of your survival... against fighters, you throtteling up in the bomber is just plain silly, it won't affect your performace disadvantage against the fighters... it's a fact that when we fly tight in bombers and get bounced by fighters, the most common phrase you hear in our teamspeak is " keep formation, keep formation"

 

cruising at max speed and hi rpm is .. in my view... just another sign of air quake

 

 

 

keep....form....a....tion

 

Edited April 18, 2014 by F19_Klunk

[Requiem]

I often get 'volunteered' as leader   so here are some quick thoughts off the top of my head:

• As a leader I fly at reduced power so the wingmen have a power excess to stay in formation, but the wingmen need to know how to place themselves in different formation positions where we can clear each other's blind spots. There is little point leading a formation where the guys are just sitting around your dead six. If everyone is in a good position though feel free to maximise your engine power if you want.
• You need to be conscious of your position on the map and where your wingmen are relative to you. This is so when scanning of the sky for bad guys you can direct their eyes quickly towards any threats or to provide vectors for a rejoin if they are lost. It's basically about keeping the formation together but don't babysit them too much.
• When/before you spot bandits it's up to you to allocate your flight to attack/support roles. Saying nothing before the fight is about to start just encourages a situation where everyone gets sucked in when they don't need to be, which doesn't help protect your flight from any future inbound threats. Don't just charge in to a fight and ignore your responsibilities.
• This goes back to the first point, but even during a fight you need to keep some sort of idea of where your wingman are to help with quick efficient threat calls to save their ass if they are about to be attacked.
• Don't worry about who gets the kill, you should be focused on helping keep your guys alive and helping them get kills, not increasing your own kill count.

Usually as a leader you plenty of situational awareness spare (turbo'd OODA Loop), so use it to help your wingmen out. Don't take leader all the time though, be happy to sit back and fly any role because when you first start flying leader you will be pushing yourself a bit to focus on what's going on (practicing to turbo your OODA loop), but after spending some time as leader you will find flying as a wingman 10X easier, and almost relaxing

[C-Bag]

Thanks for that Requiem.

 

I've looked around for tips on how to be a good wingman but not come up with much. Sorry in advance if these seems stupid questions.

 

So you pair up with somebody.....how far should you follow them? If you are too close it seems like you are not going to help anybody when somebody drops on your six. And what do you do if somebody does get on you? It seems so logical that you shouldn't shoulder shoot, but what other tips could you give for a noob wanting to learn the proper way to fly wing?

[SeriousFox]

If you fly in formation, you have to watch your distance form your members right? Then how should I know whether enemy is attacking me or not?

[Requiem]

Thanks for that Requiem.

 

I've looked around for tips on how to be a good wingman but not come up with much. Sorry in advance if these seems stupid questions.

 

So you pair up with somebody.....how far should you follow them? If you are too close it seems like you are not going to help anybody when somebody drops on your six. And what do you do if somebody does get on you? It seems so logical that you shouldn't shoulder shoot, but what other tips could you give for a noob wanting to learn the proper way to fly wing?

 

It depends on the formation spacing and numbers of aircraft in it. We can just use a 2 ship formation as the example though. You need to be close enough to be in a position of support when it's needed but not out so far that if the leader is engaged you can't help him, and this changes depending on the aircraft's turn radius. If you use the aircraft turn radius as spacing then If I'm wingman and treating the flight as "serious business", on the way out of an airfield I'll fly close formation for practice (inside 50m), but as we near the expected combat area I'll shift to a combat spread position above and to the side of lead (about 200m right/left and 50-100m high). Don't get too stuck on numbers though, just be close enough to support without infringing on lead's maneuvering space. If the wingman isn't very experienced with flying in formations, then he should probably get into a position where he can maneuver as he needs to in a cone behind the leader alternating between the left/right 45° positions at about the same distance, but never directly sucked into the lead's 6 oclock. He should always notify the lead if he changes sides.

 

 

If you fly in formation, you have to watch your distance form your members right? Then how should I know whether enemy is attacking me or not?

This is where your communication and formation flying comes in. Your leader should be flying a steady altitude, heading, and airspeed, and so should you. If you are both doing this correctly then you can both focus on your scanning responsibilities, and since clearing your leader's position is part of your scanning you will always be verifying his position during it. If needed you can do extra checks to keep him in sight though.

 

In general, I can't stress enough the importance of Teamspeak for this sort of thing. If the guy you have formed up with has no clue you are there or what your intentions are then he will just flat out ignore your prescence 99% of the time. Not only is formation flight fun to do, it really helps form the basis of how to fight in combat because if you can maintain really close formation with someone while they are maneuvering around like a monkey on acid then you will be a better dogfighter when the time comes. This is stuff I plan to cover in my videos once more of the basics are out of the way, but hopefully it helps a bit. If anyone comes in to correct stuff, sorry if I got something wrong, this is pretty much off the top of my head.

[FlatSpinMan]

Very interesting. As an online newbie I think this article was very helpful.

One question though: what is OODA?

[Feathered_IV]

Yoda's brother perhaps? 

 

One thing I always find helpful when flying as wingman is to position myself on the opposite side of the leader to where one might expect the objective or a possible threat to be.  Things can happen in any direction for sure, but if I'm already watching in the most likely direction while keeping station, it cuts my workload in half and makes it easier to scan other areas too.

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

Actually every plane has a formation speed. The Stuka formation speed is 250 km/h. You should maintain that speed to have a manageable formation.

 

You can fly at 350 on a Stuka, but you will need a slower speed to keep formation and endurance/range to reach your target.

 

Unfortunately engine management for range and endurance is not important on any sim so far due to small map limitations. Thus people go around flying on max continuos thrust all the time.

[C-Bag]

Thanks again Requiem.

 

I really enjoyed your midset vid, and actually all your vids. You obviously have a lot of real experience besides sim experience. There are a couple of squads that offer this kind of realworld training but I'd hate to join up and not be able to commit as much time to the actual online missions as they would want. I just have too many constraints on my free time.

 

This doesn't mean I don't like training. I actually love that part of anything I get interested in. As a musician I spend more time practicing and learning on my own than playing with the band. So watching your vids and applying them when you are a noob takes a lot of time, especially when your time is limited, to get down.

 

Problem is there's a world full of folks who just wanna skip the basics and jump into the "fun" stuff. In the real world you'd not be allowed to because you'd kill yourself, or somebody else and/or destroy $$$$$'s of equipment. But in sim's it's anonymous and "fun". But like in music, the fun is when you know what the basics are and your role. Otherwise it's just noise. 

 

People who've done this for a long time forget or maybe don't think anybody cares about basic training. The training for CLoD was a joke, an aggravating one at that. So it's nice to have like in BOS freeflight and the different steps, but it would also help to have some clue about how to fly formations and what's expected beyond that. I've enjoyed the vids that folks have posted, but not seen anything about flying as a squad and nothing about flying wing. I look fwd to your vid on being a wingman. Hopefully it will help cure some headaches for you and others

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

All that you need to know about formation flight is that wing clears wing and propeller clears tail.

 

You never should be in a position where your wingtip can hit your leader wingtip if a sudden speed change happens.

You never should be in a position where your propeller can hit your leader tail if a sudden heading change happens.

 

That is it!!

 

Now you can join your country flying demostration team !!

[DD_Arthur]

If a flight leader has the patience to do just one orbit of the field or spawn point at half throttle before setting out on a three-quarter throttle cruise then they can do little else wrong.

[6./ZG26_Gielow]

I hope people can evolve tactics because so far you can have a freight train between planes on enemy formation  

 

 

Full screen 1080p for a better view.

Edited April 21, 2014 by JG62Gielow

[StarLightSong]

Defending in formation / Situational Awareness is king.

What I've seen work: close 150m ish and a bit high, 45degree offset, good coms, a plan if the wingman gets jumped- e.g.. he calls the break and the lead zooms up and over to drop in behind the offending enemy expending some distracting tracers.  Too close you're just another target, too far, you're a spectator. . .

but this
is
quickly Fu#$#barred when either party loses sight and the fight given the limitations of a flat 1920 monitor FOV.

I don't know if any of you play Hockey but although it's on a 2D plane, the process of following the very quickly evolving team play is crazy similar.
It's not uncommon as a  "Center" to run at the "goal" loop back around 180 deg. and look over your shoulder just in time to receive a pass from a "winger" that was trailing you and broke in the opposite direction, you then cross paths head-on, continue the loop and throw the puck back to the winger who is now advancing to the goal down the slot/ path you just vacated.  Sending the puck behind you, over the shoulder to him.
How!?

By constantly swivelling your head head and extrapolating the path of the players from one "glimpse" to another, while calling out simple commands to make your moves known.

In game, although Track IR can help, even more than gunnery, I've found the state of screen real estate and SitA the biggest challenge in combat.  I guess practice will make perfect.

Ah the big Bubble canopies of certain airforces would be nice too : )

 

 

 

and from the Sublime to the Ridiculous. . .

Edited April 28, 2014 by JJJudyJoYstickr

[Johnny_Red]

as a member of a squad who obsessively fly in formations ( even when we shouldn't... but we rather die in style than to meet the objectives ).. i have to say speed control is really important. to fly in close formation takes a toll when it comes to sped; u have to adjust your position using all control surfaces and throttle settings constantly. that affects of course you speed and engine. we have a rule that when flying in formation in a non combat mode, keep cruise speed (lower rpm and throttle setting) that way all pilots in the formation can keep up and keep formation without busting the engine.

 

if we fly bombers its even more important, because as you said feathered, a good and effective defensive formation is the key of your survival... against fighters, you throtteling up in the bomber is just plain silly, it won't affect your performace disadvantage against the fighters... it's a fact that when we fly tight in bombers and get bounced by fighters, the most common phrase you hear in our teamspeak is " keep formation, keep formation"

 

cruising at max speed and hi rpm is .. in my view... just another sign of air quake

 

 

 

keep....form....a....tion

 

Impressive

[StarLightSong]

Wow, that's some B25 goodness.

[=BKHZ=Furbs]

very impresive video, felt i was watching real footage in some parts.

Some real audio of bomber pilots would of completed the feeling.

[BigPickle]

as a member of a squad who obsessively fly in formations ( even when we shouldn't... but we rather die in style than to meet the objectives ).. i have to say speed control is really important. to fly in close formation takes a toll when it comes to sped; u have to adjust your position using all control surfaces and throttle settings constantly. that affects of course you speed and engine. we have a rule that when flying in formation in a non combat mode, keep cruise speed (lower rpm and throttle setting) that way all pilots in the formation can keep up and keep formation without busting the engine.

 

if we fly bombers its even more important, because as you said feathered, a good and effective defensive formation is the key of your survival... against fighters, you throtteling up in the bomber is just plain silly, it won't affect your performace disadvantage against the fighters... it's a fact that when we fly tight in bombers and get bounced by fighters, the most common phrase you hear in our teamspeak is " keep formation, keep formation"

 

cruising at max speed and hi rpm is .. in my view... just another sign of air quake

 

 

 

keep....form....a....tion

 

 

All I could hear was :

 

"help him"- unknown radio voice

 

"help who?" - Yossarian

 

"the bombardier" - unknown radio voice

 

"I'm the bombadier, I'm alright," -Yossarian

 

"then help him! help him!" - unknown radio voice