Black outs - UPDATE and thoughts on VR

[Ken5421]

Ok so blackouts is definitely interesting. I normally fly the Spitfire. I'm noticing in dogfights that as I follow some pilots during air combat as I try to get a bead, I'm blacking out. Are some pilots switching blackouts off? Is that possible? I like blackouts because I probably fly better but it can be frustrating. A lot of my deaths are manoeuvring leading to a blackout and then hitting the ground. Or manoeuvring during a dog fight, blacking out and then during that period of darkness and no control, I get creamed. Very frustrating. Did German pilots have G suits? It has made flying and air combat harder but equally more rewarding when you get a kill. Interested to hear any feedback.

 

Also seems like many people now using VR. I'm still on head tracker. Are people finding a definite advantage on VR? 

[No.23_Gaylion]

 

 

 

This is the Flying Circus forum.....

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2020 by US213_Talbot

[J5_Gamecock]

Dang yer ugly Talbot.

 

But ya got a purdy mouth!

Edited January 26, 2020 by J5_Gamecock

[Todt_Von_Oben]

As with your WWII sim: G-force blackouts are a function in FC1.  I don't think it can be deactivated.  

 

You can also get wounded and lose all faculties until you recover.  Wound a bot and the same thing happens to them, too: they look dead but then they come back to life.  Merely unconscious.

 

G-force blackouts can be averted if you ease-off at the stick a little bit when you sense it coming on.  

 

Get wounded and there's going to be an indeterminate length of time when you are totally inop until you wake back up.  Hope you're dirty-side-down and get off the controls until the blindness passes is about all you can do.  And yes, you can crash in the meantime. 

 

In FC1: nobody has a G-suit (heh!) but the Germans do have parachutes.  

 

In FC1: VR gives a great 3D flight experience.  But TrackIR has advantages in MP.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ken5421]

Ok thanks for the feedback.

 

I read somewhere the Spitfire can easily exceed the pilots G force tolerance. Now I understand why former pilots say it was tricky and could bite you really hard if mistakes were made

[Todt_Von_Oben]

Sure.  In WWII era fighters you could easily fly yourself into a G-loc.  At the speeds those things flew, you could also get going straight down so fast that you couldn't pull out, too.

 

Relating that to WWI vintage planes in FC1: the un-augmented pilot is about the same for both wars; but the canvas kites are slower and more frail.

 

Actually, your post has me looking into the G-loc feature as we've seen it lately in FC1.  

 

Personally, I have no problem with it; if the Devs want to make me black out at a certain point, that's okay.  Just  one more parameter in the sim for me to cope with.  No problem.

 

But I wonder how realistic it is.  I've pulled G's mock-dogfighting in an 85 hp Luscombe but never felt like I was going to pass out.  Not at those speeds and forces. 

 

So I'm wondering what those old birds were stressed for.  Could I really knock myself out in a Dr.1 or Camel before the airframe broke?  I don't know, but I'm wondering.

 

If I had to guess, I think I could.  But I'd like to see the numbers to be more certain.  

 

Looking... 

Edited January 27, 2020 by Todt_Von_Oben

[NO.20_Krispy_Duck]

You're correct about the Spitfire in IL2 - very easy to black out if you're moving along at any real speed and pull back. You can turn very tightly in the Spitfire but you need to know where the limits are in terms of black out.

 

In FC, it's harder to black out because the speeds and G-forces are generally lower. But you will see it come into play if you pick up some speed in a dive and then pull back sharply and forcefully. If you want to experiment, take out the Spad XIII and play around a bit. The Spad is fast and sturdy in a dive, and a high-speed pull back can cause you to blackout.

 

What you generally do not have in FC, that you do have in the Spitfire, is that very rapid, total blackout if you pull just a bit too much.

[Ken5421]

On 1/27/2020 at 12:36 PM, Todt_Von_Oben said:

Sure.  In WWII era fighters you could easily fly yourself into a G-loc.  At the speeds those things flew, you could also get going straight down so fast that you couldn't pull out, too.

 

Relating that to WWI vintage planes in FC1: the un-augmented pilot is about the same for both wars; but the canvas kites are slower and more frail.

 

Actually, your post has me looking into the G-loc feature as we've seen it lately in FC1.  

 

Personally, I have no problem with it; if the Devs want to make me black out at a certain point, that's okay.  Just  one more parameter in the sim for me to cope with.  No problem.

 

But I wonder how realistic it is.  I've pulled G's mock-dogfighting in an 85 hp Luscombe but never felt like I was going to pass out.  Not at those speeds and forces. 

 

So I'm wondering what those old birds were stressed for.  Could I really knock myself out in a Dr.1 or Camel before the airframe broke?  I don't know, but I'm wondering.

 

If I had to guess, I think I could.  But I'd like to see the numbers to be more certain.  

 

Looking... 

Yes I need to check out FC1. I do wonder how well calibrated the whole blackout thing is. Because every individual would be different. But I guess developers have to draw the line somewhere. Thanks for the feedback

On 1/27/2020 at 2:27 PM, Krispy_Duck said:

You're correct about the Spitfire in IL2 - very easy to black out if you're moving along at any real speed and pull back. You can turn very tightly in the Spitfire but you need to know where the limits are in terms of black out.

 

In FC, it's harder to black out because the speeds and G-forces are generally lower. But you will see it come into play if you pick up some speed in a dive and then pull back sharply and forcefully. If you want to experiment, take out the Spad XIII and play around a bit. The Spad is fast and sturdy in a dive, and a high-speed pull back can cause you to blackout.

 

What you generally do not have in FC, that you do have in the Spitfire, is that very rapid, total blackout if you pull just a bit too much.

Is there an optimum combat speed in the spit to balance tight manoeuvring with avoiding blackouts? I will definitely check out FC1. Thanks for the feedback   

[Knarley-Bob]

Too bad when you are following, you black out, and your target doesn't. Of course computers don't black out. One can't sneak up on it either, it always knows where you are.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

8 hours ago, Knarley-Bob said:

Too bad when you are following, you black out, and your target doesn't. Of course computers don't black out. One can't sneak up on it either, it always knows where you are.

AI can blackout as I was informed.

[ZachariasX]

On 1/28/2020 at 11:37 PM, Ken5421 said:

Is there an optimum combat speed in the spit to balance tight manoeuvring with avoiding blackouts?

When you don‘t black anymore when yanking your stick back then you are slow enough to be free food for any competent opposition.

 

The Spit has a very light elevator that makes her very effortless to fly. I‘m talking about the real aircraft. This is a huge advantage as you can keep maneuvering without getting exhausted. This is not reflected in the game as working the stick is effortless on all sim aircraft and you have to get used to the elevator being more delicate.

 

If you are chasing someone that does a tight defensive turn near blackout, you cannot close on him AND follow his path without blacking out. This is why in all aircraft you should maintain a high combat speed that allow g-loc. It is the most effective maneuver to force the other guy away from a gun solution.

 

The only way to counter this as attacker is an out of plane turn, namely pulling up during the turn to trade excess speed for altitude. Gravity assists you pulling the nose back down when you pull over the top, back down on your prey. Like this, you will gain angles sufficient foe a snapshot. Following in plane makes you lose angles or you forfeit your advantage by giving up un energy by slowing down to his speed. This will get you killed.

 

In short, for any aircraft it is the rule to stay high and fast in the fight. And learn to fight. There are no specific methods for each plane. The same rules apply for all aircraft. It is just that some aircraft are better than others in certain circumstances and you should know these situations and do your best not ending up in such. It is where a competent opponent has it easiest to turn the tables on you.

 

The only situation that your question really addresses is when you did it all wrong but somehow managed to stay alive once the fight reached the deck. The Spitfire will outturn most opponents at sustained turns at low speed. The 109 can initially keep up with you, but if you manage to drag him through half a turn, you can keep turning until you‘re on his tail.

 

In almost all other situation it is the other anyway that in one way or the other allowed you to shoot him down.

[Ken5421]

8 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

When you don‘t black anymore when yanking your stick back then you are slow enough to be free food for any competent opposition.

 

The Spit has a very light elevator that makes her very effortless to fly. I‘m talking about the real aircraft. This is a huge advantage as you can keep maneuvering without getting exhausted. This is not reflected in the game as working the stick is effortless on all sim aircraft and you have to get used to the elevator being more delicate.

 

If you are chasing someone that does a tight defensive turn near blackout, you cannot close on him AND follow his path without blacking out. This is why in all aircraft you should maintain a high combat speed that allow g-loc. It is the most effective maneuver to force the other guy away from a gun solution.

 

The only way to counter this as attacker is an out of plane turn, namely pulling up during the turn to trade excess speed for altitude. Gravity assists you pulling the nose back down when you pull over the top, back down on your prey. Like this, you will gain angles sufficient foe a snapshot. Following in plane makes you lose angles or you forfeit your advantage by giving up un energy by slowing down to his speed. This will get you killed.

 

In short, for any aircraft it is the rule to stay high and fast in the fight. And learn to fight. There are no specific methods for each plane. The same rules apply for all aircraft. It is just that some aircraft are better than others in certain circumstances and you should know these situations and do your best not ending up in such. It is where a competent opponent has it easiest to turn the tables on you.

 

The only situation that your question really addresses is when you did it all wrong but somehow managed to stay alive once the fight reached the deck. The Spitfire will outturn most opponents at sustained turns at low speed. The 109 can initially keep up with you, but if you manage to drag him through half a turn, you can keep turning until you‘re on his tail.

 

In almost all other situation it is the other anyway that in one way or the other allowed you to shoot him down.

Ok thanks for the great feedback. That is very interesting to read and makes a lot of sense. The biggest killer for me nowdays is crashing because of blackout. It is very frustrating. Also very frustrating that when I'm chasing a target they seemingly pull high G moves. I follow and black out, lose the target and then get nailed. Or when my vision returns I have lost the target. I think as you say its knowing your limitations and not being drawn into a bad situation in the first place. It is very easy to get fixated on a target.    

[ZachariasX]

10 minutes ago, Ken5421 said:

I follow and black out

Don‘t be greedy. In general, pulling hard will bleed a lot of speed, besides putting you out.

 

In general, do not ever try to follow the flight path of a slower target. Him being slower cannot escape your sights anyway on the whole. What you have to do is predict his flight path and fly there as straight as possible, where you will converge at firing distance. All he can do is put you on a steep angle to make the shot difficult. But in most cases you will (done right) make him fly through your salvo. If you miss, trade speed for altitude and reverse down on him. (Never pull hard on the initiation of a pull up. Pull hard when going over the top to get the nose back down, gravity helps you and since you are slow now, you turn quicker.) You force him flying tight circles making it very hard to ever get aim on you. As long as you are maintaining your energy advantage, you dictate the fight. All he can do is disengage if he has the altitude for it. Following a plane in a dive equals energy states quickly and if you don‘t land your shots now, he has a level playing field again. As you really blew it by that time and he made everything right, you cannot expect to last then.

 

For crazy angles fighting madness however, join us in FC. ;).

[Ken5421]

Ok many thanks for the advice. Much appreciated. On the Spitfire I set my guns to 200 metres. A lot of my kills are via deflection shot where I don't often see the target, because I'm used to tight turning I'm aiming ahead. But with blackouts I think I need to rethink my whole approach to air combat. Your feedback is very interesting - thanks. Also what is FC? 

[RNAS10_Oliver]

FC means Flying Circus. It's the WW1 module in IL2 Great Battles. According to the gold/bronze pins next to your name you have already purchased or been gifted Flying Circus. This sub forum that you have posted your topic into as Talbot states above is  the one dedicated to the Flying Circus module.

 

 

Edited February 8, 2020 by Oliver88

[Ken5421]

Ok thanks Oliver. Yes I need to play it. See you up there