II./JG77_Manu* Posted January 7, 2017 Posted January 7, 2017 (edited) I'm pretty much the opposite. DCS seems to be more of a "What if" simulator. Unless you set up a mission where you recreate the bombing of some hapless minority group, that's about it. No US or Russian aircraft faced each other over the environments provided. The WW2 aircraft provided didn't face each other over Normandy. No Sabres and MiGs fought over the Caucasus, and no Hueys strafed or dropped off troops there. Every flight simulator is a "what if" simulator. None of them comes even close in recreating what really happened in a particular war, even the parts that can be included in a flight sim - well apart from Wings over Flanders Fields probably. I think you don't need too much fantasy to imagine a proxy war between USA and Russia in the 80s or 90s in the Caucasus area. A10, Su25, all the Helis, Mig21, and Flaming Cliffs would all fit to this scenario and fit one timeframe, the ground machinery as well. There is and there was no war in the last 40 years with modern equipment on both sides - so should we just refrain from flying modern jets completely?! I think this is one of the few believable scenarios seeing modern fighter jets clash. Agree on the older stuff. I am pretty sure Hueys dropped off plenty of troops in Georgia. Edited January 7, 2017 by II./JG77_Manu*
BeastyBaiter Posted January 7, 2017 Posted January 7, 2017 There is and there was no war in the last 40 years with modern equipment on both sides - so should we just refrain from flying modern jets completely?! Ahem... Iran-Iraq War (1981-1988) Iraq: Mirage F1, Gazelle, Bo-105, MiG-21, MiG-23, MiG-25, Su-17M, Su-24M, Su-25A, Mi-24 (aka Mi-25), Mi-8M (aka Mi-17), T-72, SA-3, SA-6, SA-7, SA-8 Iran: F-4, F-5, F-14, UH-1, AH-1J, M60 Patton, Hawk (SAM) 1991 Gulf War: Iraq: all of above Iraqi + MiG-29 West: all of above Iran + Mirage 2000, Mirage F1, Gazelle, AH-64, UH-60, F-15, F-16, F-18, F-117, F-111 and many others that are largely still in service Eritrea-Ethiopia (1990's-2000's) Eritrea: MiG-29A Ethiopia: Su-27, MiG-21-97, MiG-21-2000, Mi-24, others Syrian civil war (present) Syria: MiG-21 Bis, MiG-23MLD, MiG-29A, Mi-24, Mi-17, Su-24M, Su-25A, L-39ZA Russia: Su-34, Su-35, MiG-29 (assorted modernized), Ka-52, Mi-28, Mi-35, Mi-8, Su-24M (modern), Su-25 (modern) Insurgents: captured tanks, assorted manpads + AAA Iraq 2003-present: USA: everything USA Iraq: Mi-24, Mi-35, Mi-28, Su-25A, misc oddball stuff Iran: F-4 (modernized) Insurgents: captured tanks (including M1 Abrams), manpads, AAA An interesting note about DCS, the upcoming AJS-37 will be the first non-trainer player aircraft added that doesn't have a combat record. Even the unicorn helicopter (Ka-50) has a few combat missions under its belt. 1
Dakpilot Posted January 8, 2017 Posted January 8, 2017 Don't forget Angolan border war, Mirage F1-CZ/ - Mig-21bis/Mig-23ML ...and an interesting supporting cast small but real Cheers Dakpilot 1
Lusekofte Posted January 8, 2017 Posted January 8, 2017 Coolest war I know of and there was a mod for in old IL 2 was the football war, where Mustangs and corsairs fought against each other. Or could have done The Football War (Spanish: La guerra del fútbol), also known as the Soccer War or 100 Hour War, was a brief war fought by El Salvador and Honduras in 1969. The cause of the war was economic in nature, namely issues concerning immigration from Honduras to El Salvador.[1]These existing tensions between the two countries coincided with rioting during a 1970 FIFA World Cup qualifier. The war began on 14 July 1969, when the Salvadoran military launched an attack against Honduras. The Organization of American States (OAS) negotiated a ceasefire on the night of 18 July (hence "100 Hour War"), which took full effect on 20 July. Salvadoran troops were withdrawn in early August. Despite a formal peace treaty, a decision by the International Court of Justice, the support of the OAS, and more than forty years having passed, the dispute remains active.[verify] But I am derailing
Feathered_IV Posted January 8, 2017 Posted January 8, 2017 Ahem... Iran-Iraq War (1981-1988) Iraq: Mirage F1, Gazelle, Bo-105, MiG-21, MiG-23, MiG-25, Su-17M, Su-24M, Su-25A, Mi-24 (aka Mi-25), Mi-8M (aka Mi-17), T-72, SA-3, SA-6, SA-7, SA-8 Iran: F-4, F-5, F-14, UH-1, AH-1J, M60 Patton, Hawk (SAM) 1991 Gulf War: Iraq: all of above Iraqi + MiG-29 West: all of above Iran + Mirage 2000, Mirage F1, Gazelle, AH-64, UH-60, F-15, F-16, F-18, F-117, F-111 and many others that are largely still in service Eritrea-Ethiopia (1990's-2000's) Eritrea: MiG-29A Ethiopia: Su-27, MiG-21-97, MiG-21-2000, Mi-24, others Syrian civil war (present) Syria: MiG-21 Bis, MiG-23MLD, MiG-29A, Mi-24, Mi-17, Su-24M, Su-25A, L-39ZA Russia: Su-34, Su-35, MiG-29 (assorted modernized), Ka-52, Mi-28, Mi-35, Mi-8, Su-24M (modern), Su-25 (modern) Insurgents: captured tanks, assorted manpads + AAA Iraq 2003-present: USA: everything USA Iraq: Mi-24, Mi-35, Mi-28, Su-25A, misc oddball stuff Iran: F-4 (modernized) Insurgents: captured tanks (including M1 Abrams), manpads, AAA An interesting note about DCS, the upcoming AJS-37 will be the first non-trainer player aircraft added that doesn't have a combat record. Even the unicorn helicopter (Ka-50) has a few combat missions under its belt. Thanks very much, that is precisely what I meant.
MiloMorai Posted January 8, 2017 Posted January 8, 2017 Viggens have intercepted Soviet a/c but there was no shooting.
Lusekofte Posted January 8, 2017 Posted January 8, 2017 That is normal Norwegian Airforce intercept Russian plane on a daily bases , And it has been busy lately. It was stop during perestroika
150GCT_Veltro Posted January 8, 2017 Posted January 8, 2017 (edited) Understand what? A map for two aircraft?.. Later, of course but not now. Yes, considering the amazing quality level of the Belsimtek modules. It would be enough, F-86 feels so real as for the Mig-15. Would be great also the Panther with carrier operations...of course. Edited January 8, 2017 by 150GCT_Veltro
II./JG77_Manu* Posted January 8, 2017 Posted January 8, 2017 (edited) Iran-Iraq War (1981-1988) Iraq: Mirage F1, Gazelle, Bo-105, MiG-21, MiG-23, MiG-25, Su-17M, Su-24M, Su-25A, Mi-24 (aka Mi-25), Mi-8M (aka Mi-17), T-72, SA-3, SA-6, SA-7, SA-8 Iran: F-4, F-5, F-14, UH-1, AH-1J, M60 Patton, Hawk (SAM) No modern equipment. (F15, Su27, Ka50, Mig29S, A10). With the upcoming F1, Bo-105, and F14 alongside current moduls it would be a nice scenario however Eritrea-Ethiopia (1990's-2000's) Eritrea: MiG-29A Ethiopia: Su-27, MiG-21-97, MiG-21-2000, Mi-24, others Fair enough, however only Russian equip..vast majority of DCS moduls not there Syrian civil war (present) Syria: MiG-21 Bis, MiG-23MLD, MiG-29A, Mi-24, Mi-17, Su-24M, Su-25A, L-39ZA Russia: Su-34, Su-35, MiG-29 (assorted modernized), Ka-52, Mi-28, Mi-35, Mi-8, Su-24M (modern), Su-25 (modern) Insurgents: captured tanks, assorted manpads + AAA No air-to-air combat, ground attack the only thing aircraft are doing. No 2 sides with nearly equal equipment, which was my point in the first place. One side not having aircraft at all. + it started after DCS, which makes a discussion redundant anyway Iraq 2003-present: USA: everything USA Iraq: Mi-24, Mi-35, Mi-28, Su-25A, misc oddball stuff Iran: F-4 (modernized) Insurgents: captured tanks (including M1 Abrams), manpads, AAA "Airwar" lasted one day, far from modern equipment at one side. Gulfwar would indeed be a good scenario. I was banned in the DCS forum for promoting it as new scenario, and saying that the Straight of Hormuz is only another "what if" scenario. With the initial moduls the Gulf war could not be represented very good. However with the current and upcoming moduls, it would be the perfect scenario. However one should not forget, that it wasn't much of an airwar as well. Irak managed to shoot down a whole lot of 2 aircraft in air-to air. Pretty comparable to Barbarossa in WW2. However you can do "what if" wars with at least the right equipment and map. With the initial content (Flaming Cliffs, A10, Su25), i can understand the choice of Caucasus very good, because it couldn't represent any of yours mentioned. What's going on now and in the future is another thing. I really really hope for a Irak/Bahrain/Gulf map in the future... Even the unicorn helicopter (Ka-50) has a few combat missions under its belt. Yes, on the current Caucasus map Edited January 8, 2017 by II./JG77_Manu*
MiloMorai Posted January 8, 2017 Posted January 8, 2017 That is normal Norwegian Airforce intercept Russian plane on a daily bases , And it has been busy lately. It was stop during perestroika RNoAF flew Viggens?
II./JG77_Manu* Posted January 8, 2017 Posted January 8, 2017 RNoAF flew Viggens? Nope they had Starfighter and Tiger, and now Fokker F16 and F35
Bando Posted January 8, 2017 Posted January 8, 2017 (edited) Fokker? EDIT: Mmmm, just googled it. Fokker indeed made some F16 (in licence?) for the Dutch air force, maybe some for Norway as well. Edited January 8, 2017 by Bando
II./JG77_Manu* Posted January 9, 2017 Posted January 9, 2017 Jep, they have license production. There is also a Samsung F16 ( ) for South Korean airforce
Gambit21 Posted January 9, 2017 Posted January 9, 2017 DCS is not trying to be Il2. What exactly is DCS trying to be? Because if they're trying to be a product that doesn't provide it's users with a single fleshed out, cohesive theater to operate an even partially complete plane set for said theater - I'd say they're nailing it. 1
JG4_Sputnik Posted January 10, 2017 Posted January 10, 2017 Their strategic goal is to cover all theatres through time, from ww2 to the present. You can read that exact statement in their last 2016 update. It's a pretty big task yes - and one could say they could've start from the beginning rather than make a plane here, put out a map there. But at the beginning I think they didn't know their goal as well as they do now However, I think they need to think about how they can improve development cycles (if they don't already do that). An I hope they will show us some plans in the future. DCS consumers need to have time and patience, but if they have, I think in the long run they (we) benefit from a great product. 1
150GCT_Veltro Posted January 10, 2017 Posted January 10, 2017 (edited) Hormuz is a good choice for sure, a sort of dedicated theater for F-18 and carrier operations. This map will be the first one in T5 if i'm not wrong, and it will be a good map also for Mirage 2000 and F-5. It will be released.........who know...the end of 2017 may be, but i agree about patience at least for this theater that will be probably a sort of revolution for the flight sim world, as for our online experience. Edited January 10, 2017 by 150GCT_Veltro
=362nd_FS=Hiromachi Posted January 10, 2017 Posted January 10, 2017 Reality is that DCS not only needs content but also serious improvements to its core. Game is still quite heavy on resources, it tends to crash on start or when loading to multiplayer servers and most important from my perspective are net code issues. Amount of warping, lags and that kind of issues heavily impacts multiplayer experience. Until they integrate it all and finally stop working on 3 versions, but start with only 1 it's going to be ultra slow development. 2016 was supposed to be a great year and yet all they actually managed was releasing into open beta Spitfire at the very end of it. It all looks to me like 15 years ago they ahve built a wooden house and now they are trying to turn it into marble palace, but they forgot to build serious foundations, there is a wall here and a hole there, someone put into main hall fireplace but without chimney. 1
II./JG77_Manu* Posted January 10, 2017 Posted January 10, 2017 The aircraft we get when Hormuz is out pretty much cover the Iranian and the Arab air force, so definitely the right gear for a "Islamic 30-years war". Not neccessarily the exact version/block of the aircraft being used IRL, but close enough for a believable scenario. For Iran we have: F5 Tiger F14 Tomcat Mig-29 Chengdu J-7 (Mig-21) Su-25 Mirage F1 Hesa Saeqeh (Tiger) Apart from the F4 nothing important missing, aircraft for everyone. For Saudi-Arabia we have: Eurofighter Typhoon F15C Panavia Tornado in works(?!) No idea when to expect this modul though. Huey Mil-Mi 17 (Mi-8) Nothing important missing in the long term (hopefully Tornado and Typhoon to be out "soon") For Emirates we have: No F-16 Mirage 2000 Bell-412 - not too far away from the Huey, with some imagination Could be complemented to create a proxy war by Russian Navy: Kusnezow + Su33 US Navy: Carrier with F/A-18 and Tiger Seems all in all like a pretty fleshed out scenario to me. I would have prefered the first gulf war, that actually happened, but this is not a too bad alternative. Reality is that DCS not only needs content but also serious improvements to its core. Game is still quite heavy on resources, it tends to crash on start or when loading to multiplayer servers and most important from my perspective are net code issues. Amount of warping, lags and that kind of issues heavily impacts multiplayer experience. Until they integrate it all and finally stop working on 3 versions, but start with only 1 it's going to be ultra slow development. 2016 was supposed to be a great year and yet all they actually managed was releasing into open beta Spitfire at the very end of it. It all looks to me like 15 years ago they ahve built a wooden house and now they are trying to turn it into marble palace, but they forgot to build serious foundations, there is a wall here and a hole there, someone put into main hall fireplace but without chimney. Well, i think it's heavily depended on the user system. My game never crashes, and also had no net code issues. I know people with pretty bad rigs, that can't run BoX properly, but DCS is working. As for myself i get 150 FPS mostly, but then there are some odd places where it lags like hell (not neccessarily cities or big woods). Pretty annoying for sure, and i concur with you, that it needs further work. But i think releases lately are going up, not too much time between Mirage, Tiger, Spitfire, and Viggen now. I think it's getting there, even being slow. I don't understand why it will be ultra slow development with 1 version, care to elaborate?
=362nd_FS=Hiromachi Posted January 10, 2017 Posted January 10, 2017 Well, i think it's heavily depended on the user system. My game never crashes, and also had no net code issues. I know people with pretty bad rigs, that can't run BoX properly, but DCS is working. As for myself i get 150 FPS mostly, but then there are some odd places where it lags like hell (not neccessarily cities or big woods). Pretty annoying for sure, and i concur with you, that it needs further work. But i think releases lately are going up, not too much time between Mirage, Tiger, Spitfire, and Viggen now. I think it's getting there, even being slow. I don't understand why it will be ultra slow development with 1 version, care to elaborate? Maybe. I dont have a bad rig and yet crashes happen, mostly when I launch game and try to talk via TS. Loading game really creates some funny issues. And net code issues are not related to PC so not sure what you meant there. It's pretty easy to encounter lags on servers or warping (which is truly annoying), particularly ACG and to a lesser (but still) degree Burning Skies. Il-2 in this case looks much better, not perfect, but no such problems I ever had here. What releases ? Spitfire is in Early Access which is nothing different than a beta. F-5E Tiger indeed went quickly from early access to complete release, but that proves that some companies are learning. Mi-8 was also changed to complete release, but it was in early access for quite a while. Mirage was available for pre-purchease since Q3 2015 and in some areas it is still unfinished (not to mention how extremely broken it was in early release form). Viggen remains yet to be seen, I keep my fingers crossed for it, though not because I care for it - modern jets are to me about as interesting as last year snow - but because it will bring more cash to LN which in turn might finally get Corsair rolling. Since December 2015 there were no updates on that one or Iwo Jima. In regard to the last one. I forgot this little thing " , " - "Until they integrate it all and finally stop working on 3 versions, but start with only 1, it's going to be ultra slow development." What I meant is the opposite, the development should speed up once they stop playing with 3 versions of their product.
II./JG77_Manu* Posted January 10, 2017 Posted January 10, 2017 Maybe. I dont have a bad rig and yet crashes happen, mostly when I launch game and try to talk via TS. Loading game really creates some funny issues. And net code issues are not related to PC so not sure what you meant there. It's pretty easy to encounter lags on servers or warping (which is truly annoying), particularly ACG and to a lesser (but still) degree Burning Skies. Il-2 in this case looks much better, not perfect, but no such problems I ever had here. Didn't fly online for quite a while, but at the servers i was i mostly hadn't issues. I think it's more server-side, then netcode. I made small servers quite often myself, and we who flew on it never had issues. Probably also ping related, or server load. What releases ? Spitfire is in Early Access which is nothing different than a beta. F-5E Tiger indeed went quickly from early access to complete release, but that proves that some companies are learning. Mi-8 was also changed to complete release, but it was in early access for quite a while. Mirage was available for pre-purchease since Q3 2015 and in some areas it is still unfinished (not to mention how extremely broken it was in early release form). Well, BoX was and is also Beta to a huge extent, only they don't call it that way. Fw190 is beta for almost 3 years now. I call release the moment you can fly it. And there quite a few moduls came out in a relatively short timeframe - and it seems to pick up even more. I don't have the dates at hand, but Mirage, Spitfire, Tiger, Viggen and the Gazelle were pretty close to each other. Definitely faster rate then before. And it's also not all about spreading out moduls, especially since it's a modern scene. F-16 from Falcon BMS is quite popular and flown by some folks for 15 years. In regard to the last one. I forgot this little thing " , " - "Until they integrate it all and finally stop working on 3 versions, but start with only 1, it's going to be ultra slow development." What I meant is the opposite, the development should speed up once they stop playing with 3 versions of their product. Ok, lets hope so
Brano Posted January 10, 2017 Posted January 10, 2017 ED core business is in: 1. development of ORACLE based information systems and databases. One of their big customers is for example russian oil company Chernogorneft for which they developed logistics automatisation system.They claim it to be the best of its kind in Russia. 2. military contracts in Russia and abroad for different simulators (A-10 sponsored by US National Guard as example) and others,which are not publicly presented for obvious reasons (what you get as DCS A-10 is downgraded military version). They are not dedicated game studio. DCS portfolio is kind of side product for them in terms of income. Without money from "real world business" they would hardly survive solely depending on producing sophisticated digital aircrafts for niche market of CFS nerds that take ages to develope 1
Guest deleted@50488 Posted January 10, 2017 Posted January 10, 2017 Interesting Brano - I didn't know about that.
Solty Posted January 10, 2017 Posted January 10, 2017 ED core business is in: 1. development of ORACLE based information systems and databases. One of their big customers is for example russian oil company Chernogorneft for which they developed logistics automatisation system.They claim it to be the best of its kind in Russia. 2. military contracts in Russia and abroad for different simulators (A-10 sponsored by US National Guard as example) and others,which are not publicly presented for obvious reasons (what you get as DCS A-10 is downgraded military version). They are not dedicated game studio. DCS portfolio is kind of side product for them in terms of income. Without money from "real world business" they would hardly survive solely depending on producing sophisticated digital aircrafts for niche market of CFS nerds that take ages to develope Their offering is quite limited especially for the price. Sounds are average, graphics are average, DM is subpar (although new one is coming, so I hope that will make things much better, seems some guys from clod work on it), multiplayer netcode is bad, FM work is very good but not spectacular. All that for 50 USD per plane and add costs for each map which will probably be 50USD or more and one can see why the community is so small there. Not to mention lack of info about future plans for expansion of the WW2 project. 6 planes hardly give us a theatre. If there were flyable P47D, Typhoon, Mosquito, B25, Me410, Ju88 we could call it a solid game. But with 6 airplanes... I was excited for the project at the beginning but after many delays it just feels like eternity.
JG4_Sputnik Posted January 10, 2017 Posted January 10, 2017 It all looks to me like 15 years ago they ahve built a wooden house and now they are trying to turn it into marble palace, but they forgot to build serious foundations, there is a wall here and a hole there, someone put into main hall fireplace but without chimney. True. But keep in mind in software technology almost every product is like that. Tech gets old so fast, most of the work is trying to catch up to new standards. It's everywhere like that. BoX also gets through X iterations to finally come to DX11 and now try to improve on that. Not a dedicated DCS problem;) DM is subpar (although new one is coming, so I hope that will make things much better, seems some guys from clod work on it), Is that true? Where did you get that from? Awesome news!
Brano Posted January 10, 2017 Posted January 10, 2017 My message was that ED do not depend on income from DCS. They dont have to follow any deadlines strictly and can afford the luxury of delaying projects beyond horizont DCS module is never late,nor is it early.It arrives precisly when it means to
ram0506 Posted January 10, 2017 Posted January 10, 2017 Interesting Brano - I didn't know about that. This seems to be their main branch: http://www.thebattlesim.com/
Urra Posted January 10, 2017 Posted January 10, 2017 My message was that ED do not depend on income from DCS. They dont have to follow any deadlines strictly and can afford the luxury of delaying projects beyond horizont DCS module is never late,nor is it early.It arrives precisly when it means to True....
Gambit21 Posted January 10, 2017 Posted January 10, 2017 Brano - thank you for that. It all makes more sense now, as I was going to remark that their current model cannot be sustainable from a revenue standpoint. They can afford to be unfocused and a bit erratic with their choices, as they're under no pressure to deliver a cohesive product. As beautiful as those models are, I much prefer the way Jason and 777/1C plan, execute, and deliver. It's the old "one bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush"
Brano Posted January 10, 2017 Posted January 10, 2017 This seems to be their main branch: http://www.thebattlesim.com/Yep,thats that "military" part of the income. DCS world is its stripped down version for plebs. And as there is no military force in the world that needs WW2 environment simulation,its no surprise that DCS:WW2 is quite low on their "to-do" list.
Lusekofte Posted January 10, 2017 Posted January 10, 2017 (edited) Well DCS manage to keep me away from Multiplayer, if I was to be depended on multiplayer in any CFS for experience of flight I would have sold all my hardware and left this hobby. I am very grateful for that fact Edited January 10, 2017 by 216th_LuseKofte
nirvi Posted January 11, 2017 Posted January 11, 2017 Is that true? Where did you get that from? Awesome news! Some infos about the new DM: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2846539&postcount=21 https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2846548&postcount=22 1
JG4_Sputnik Posted January 11, 2017 Posted January 11, 2017 (edited) Thanks nirvi! Edited January 11, 2017 by JG4_Sputnik
II./JG77_Manu* Posted January 11, 2017 Posted January 11, 2017 Nice. Good to hear that the new DM will be used for AI as well, with the B17 etc coming. Pretty important in contrary to the Jet age
Guest deleted@30725 Posted January 11, 2017 Posted January 11, 2017 Nice. Good to hear that the new DM will be used for AI as well, with the B17 etc coming. Pretty important in contrary to the Jet age What b17?
nirvi Posted January 11, 2017 Posted January 11, 2017 (edited) What b17? Edited January 12, 2017 by nirvi
BeastyBaiter Posted January 18, 2017 Posted January 18, 2017 Getting this back on topic, LNS has given out pre-release copies of their upcoming AJS-37 Viggen to a few youtubers (and Matt Wagner also made a video). Below are links to them. Beware the Bunyap videos, the 3rd and 4th add up to 36 minutes and all he does is start the engine. Not sure how he managed to drag it out so long, looks to be a 1-2 minute process. Mudspike: Ralfidude: Matt Wagner: Bunyap: 2
150GCT_Veltro Posted January 25, 2017 Posted January 25, 2017 (edited) South England is coming as well. Good news. They got the point finally! K4 stay alert! Edited January 25, 2017 by 150GCT_Veltro 1
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