AI in Scripted campaigns vs QMB AI

[MasserME262]

* Masser Wall-post alert *

 

I guess its one of those "I feel..." things, but here I go:

 

"I feel" that AI behaves differently in a QMB to how they behave in a Scripted Campaign.

I was playing some 1v1 today: 109G2 vs LaGG3.

 

Then I started playing a campaign, the "Platszschutzstafell Pitomnik Campaign" (user-made). No way, I cant shot any LaGG3 down. Any. They turn better, they manage their energy better, they even do better vertical maneuvers than me, which is lame, giving that my plane is a 109G2. Hell, they even aim and shot better when they are on my 6: I can't shake them off. And all of this even if its just me against 1 single LaGG3 following me.

 

Surprisingly, nothing of this happens in the QMB. For example, I set a "scramble mission": my plane on the runway, enemy plane coming to strafe me, having spawned near my airfield already. He has a clear advantage. Both planes with 30% fuel, none of the planes with any modification (except for reamoved headrest in my plane). Both pilots on "Ace" difficulty.

 

No problem, I take off, gain some energy, he follows me. He tries to get a good firing position. I manage to shake it off from my 6, do some maneuvers, aim, shot. And that's it, one LaGG3 less in the world. 

 

Any of you "felt" the same? My only explanation would be: since the Scripted Campaign situation is way more complex than that of a QMB (you have several enemies near you, even if they are not focusing you right now, you have to defend Pitomnik from enemy bombers while at the same survive from the damned LaGG trying to kill you, etc), I get more "nervous" and "less focused" then Im prone to fail more on my mission of surviving and eventually shoting the enemy plane down. Also, the fact that my Situational Awareness isn't great and also the fact that I lose enemy bombers from my sight every 3 **** minutes due to bad spotting (Im talking about my display and hardware, I dont think this is because of the new spotting system), makes me even useless in the Big Picture the SC is representing (Pitomink gets rekt, my mates get rekt, my plane gets rekt. Lol).

 

All of this makes me feel overwhelmed and frustrated, so I always just decide to abandon SCs again and go back to have quick and fast fun with QMBs, not worrying about realism, immersion or anything.

 

Wonder if anyone else feels the same

[Rei-sen]

I'm playing Career at the moment. It got harder to fight against enemy AI but I still manage to score kills. 

[Gambit21]

There is not a disparate set of AI coding used for QMB vs career or scripted campaigns. 

 

All missions regardless of origin (QMB, Career, Custom/Scripted) utilize the same AI (under the hood code)

 

The editor logic used in all 3 cases can be (and almost always is) somewhat different, however once aircraft engage each other the hard-coded behavior takes over and there is no difference between each mission type - all else being equal. This means mission parameters, AI setting, altitude, etc etc.

 

Be careful also about observations that span more than one build, as AI is changing rapidly right now.

Edited January 20, 2020 by Gambit21

[SCU_Server]

9 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

Be careful also about observations that span more than one build, as AI is changing rapidly right now.

 

It needs to change as the AI is making the game pretty boring now, only reason I haven't ordered Bodenplatte after getting every other IL2 pack, is how bad the AI are, even in ACE mode they are very easy to get on the 6 of even when they have a major advantage.

[MasserME262]

1 hour ago, SCU_Server said:

 

It needs to change as the AI is making the game pretty boring now, only reason I haven't ordered Bodenplatte after getting every other IL2 pack, is how bad the AI are, even in ACE mode they are very easy to get on the 6 of even when they have a major advantage.

I feel it easier to get their 6 as well... sometimes. Sometimes, I feel it completely impossible to do anything useful. My consistency in playing is 0, as you may see, but I still notice the easier to destroy AI (despite they doing better maneuvers than before and not being so idiotic). Its strange to me

[PatrickAWlson]

It's not QMB vs Career.  It's 1v1 as opposed  to many v many as well as dogfight v mission.  The Ai will react differently when there are more elements in the decision tree, and more planes and ground units will put those decisions into the AI decision tree.  Mission requirements also go into the AI decision tree.  I would expect the QMB AI to be more focused and purposeful. It only has one possible decision to make: how to kill you.  Career AI might have to choose to cover a flight, save a wingman, complete a flight path, save itself if its damaged, etc.  All the things we want to see in a career but on't really care about in the QMB.

[MasserME262]

6 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

It's not QMB vs Career.  It's 1v1 as opposed  to many v many as well as dogfight v mission.  The Ai will react differently when there are more elements in the decision tree, and more planes and ground units will put those decisions into the AI decision tree.  Mission requirements also go into the AI decision tree.  I would expect the QMB AI to be more focused and purposeful. It only has one possible decision to make: how to kill you.  Career AI might have to choose to cover a flight, save a wingman, complete a flight path, save itself if its damaged, etc.  All the things we want to see in a career but on't really care about in the QMB.

I guess the "how" the SC made affects everything. Like you said, more enemies for the AI: more things he can choose to do.

Yesterday I tried a "Fortress on the Volga" SC mission and it was really great. It was a "free hunt" mission (I think its the 6th or 7th one on the series). One entire hour flying, I only shot down 3 IL2s, my wingman did nothing. But it was great because I could have a good Situational Awareness at all times, never let me get into an un-advantageous position and so on.

I suspect that, while what you say is probably totally valid and true, the problem here is: my poor situational awareness sometimes. 

Also, in the user made SC I played, its winter, and of course there's snow (it's Stalingrad). Idk for you all, but for me, the snow makes everything more complicated: spotting enemies, maintaining them in my sights trying not to lose them, localize my airfield or airfields in general for navigation, etc. All of that makes it way more complicated and make my "efficiency" be allmost null.

[fjacobsen]

While the AI is the same, the diference occurs due to different waypoint setup.

In QMB all aircraft, even if they are attack or bomber aircraft,  behaves as if they are fighters, because their waypoint priority is set to low.

This means that attack aircraft and bombers will start to circle once You get near them, cause the priority to reach their next waypoint is low.

 

In the mision builder You can set waypoint priority to medium or high for attack and bomber aircraft.

That means that they will keep flying straight towards the next waypoint.

[Jade_Monkey]

As others have said, the difference is not the AI but the orders they are given. My guess is the commands in QMB are probably different than in a scripted campaign and the AI has different behaviors for them.

 

Additional speculation: I have a feeling that in a furball like QMB, the AI has trouble focusing on a target when they have someone on their 6, so they cant really attack well because they keep going back an forth between offensive and defensive behavior and fail at both.

[Yogiflight]

22 minutes ago, Jade_Monkey said:

Additional speculation: I have a feeling that in a furball like QMB, the AI has trouble focusing on a target when they have someone on their 6, so they cant really attack well because they keep going back an forth between offensive and defensive behavior and fail at both.

But in furbals in the career mode or PWCG it is pretty clear, what AI do focus. They are absolutely target fixated and don't care for you, when you attack an enemy fighter, that is chasing a squadmate of yours. Yesterday I had a furbal with three enemies chasing a squadmate and I could easily attack the first of them, knowing the  two behind him won't attack me, but stay on the six of my squadmate. I killed the one and then went for the remaining two.

[MasserME262]

I wish I had the skills to go to MP, WoL or even a more difficult server. Fighting humans is way better than fighting AI for what I see

[Yogiflight]

1 hour ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

I wish I had the skills to go to MP, WoL or even a more difficult server. Fighting humans is way better than fighting AI for what I see

You can surely surprise a human pilot easier than an AI. On the other side, if you don't surprise the human pilot, he might be more tricky to fight, than the AI. And you have to be aware, that the chance of being surprised by another pilot surely is higher with human pilots, too.

[PatrickAWlson]

3 hours ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

I wish I had the skills to go to MP, WoL or even a more difficult server. Fighting humans is way better than fighting AI for what I see

 

My problem is that I don't see.  Need icons.  I use a mod to make the icons small but still need them.  Mid 50s is not the ideal age for WWI or WWII fighter pilot   

[blitze]

Have to chime in here - AI is more interesting to fly against in Career and Missions than in QMB.  QMB is more like gunnery practice by comparison and as mentioned, there are a range of factors that contribute to the case.

 

With spotting - I notice in VR that not all render target resolutions are equal.  Some can make the game look smooth and less aliased but others will give you better object rendering definition.  Learning to use SteamVR Recommended Render Target as a guide and move +/- 4% of that for spotting clarity.?

 

Back on topic, flying with AI offline in career can be a blast especially when you can spot and not have to rely on icons (I get the "feeling" icons change AI behaviour too).?