Initial Oculus Rift Impressions After Demo

[Furio]

As combat flight simulations move on to ever higher levels of "realism" a simple HOTAS will never be able to keep up.

 

I can???

[SR-F_Winger]

Er, yes. Users who haven't seen the final product, and are blown away by the hype...

Users that have seen the devkit thats commonly known delivering BELOW final product performance. And they are STILL blown away contributing to the hype with their comments about the product.

[JG27_Chivas]

I can???

[JG27_Chivas]

Not particularly. I'll leave my excitement for when I see objective reviews of the production hardware. Endless repetition of hype from Oculus's own press releases doesn't excite me. It bores me...

 I agree there is no point in looking for objective reviews until we have a consumer product to review.     That said I certainly don't find it boring, as its very interesting to see how they tackle all the problems with each prototype.  

[dburne]

The only satisfactory solution at the moment is a full hotas system.  Personally I've never liked the clickable cockpit idea, or keyboard, and prefer maping everything to my Hotas system.   I agree we have to use our hands, and having to press buttons/levers/switches on my Hotas has a more realistic feel to me than moving a mouse around.  

 

I full agree with that, I always map all my essential - and some non essential commands, to my HOTAS.

I much prefer being able to take off, fly the flight, and land, all  without touching the keyboard or mouse.

[Freycinet]

I full agree with that, I always map all my essential - and some non essential commands, to my HOTAS.

I much prefer being able to take off, fly the flight, and land, all without touching the keyboard or mouse.

For WWI and WWII combat flight simming I really don't see a big problem. Hotas or even an ordinary joystick can be used for combat essentials like weapons, rad, mixture, throttle that you need to access fast and effortlessly. Other functions like gear, flaps, gunsight settings, cockpit lighting, etc, that you typically have more time to access can be comfortably dealt with in a clickpit with a pair of virtual hands as those we see in the video I linked to. You just let go of your hotas or joystick and start using the virtual hands. Should work fine.

[FlatSpinMan]

"clickpit with a pair of virtual hands as those we see in the video I linked to. You just let go of your hotas or joystick and start using the virtual hands."

 

 

Finally! We're living in the future!

[6S.Manu]

I can???

[Lensman1945]

A simple solution for controls could be..Hotas plus voice control for all the other stuff. Voice recognition software is very good now

[6S.Manu]

A simple solution for controls could be..Hotas plus voice control for all the other stuff. Voice recognition software is very good now

Not if you are on the radio with teammates.

Edited April 2, 2013 by 6S.Manu

[Lensman1945]

Not if you are on the radio with teammates.

Yes, if you have a dedicated 'push to command' switch

[6S.Manu]

Yes, if you have a dedicated 'push to command' switch

One less usable button on the HOTAS? No thanks!

[Furio]

They need to mount a little camera on the helmet and provide a selector to switch between application and camera view (bypassing the screen). A normal camera's price is not so high (30$?), but I think it's needed.

 

Interesting.

Perhaps the concept could be improved with an auto switch, or a split image. For example: when you look below the control panel, you see your keyboard and devices???

[Ala13_Kike]

about the problem with keyboard or joy...one "data glove" it's the solution, your hands inside the game, if we have one interactive cockpit (like DCS;BS), systems like Oculus + dataglove it's the solution in flight sims and other games.

 

http://www.vrealities.com/glove.html

 

For example....

[6S.Manu]

Perhaps the concept could be improved with an auto switch, or a split image. For example: when you look below the control panel, you see your keyboard and devices???

Edited April 2, 2013 by 6S.Manu

[Ala13_Kike]

I remember some articles of people that use wiimote + freetrack software in DCS : Black Shar to do this, one home-made-data glove and isn't expensive

[Merlin]

- As for the 1 on 1 tracking - I think you will be able to change this with the SDK. Essentially a slider can be added to game options that can change the tracking for 1-to-10 to behave more like the TrackIR.

 

Developers working with the dev kits have stated that not using 1:1 tracking makes the user motion sick. Many sore necks will be had!

[JG27_Chivas]

I've used the voice recognition software awhile ago and it was very effective especially for AI commands. 

 

A simple solution for controls could be..Hotas plus voice control for all the other stuff. Voice recognition software is very good now

I agree, I've used voice recognition software before and its very effective/immersive especially for AI commands.   Full Hotas and voice recognition software is the best solution I've heard to far.

 

I can't see 1:1 or 10:1 tracking being a long term problem with Motion sickness for most people.  Yes I used to get some when I first started to use the high ratio of Track IR but it soon became a non-issue.   High ratio tracking and motion blur could be a problem,  until they fix any resolution/latency/blur problems.   I'd like to see an option to dial in a tracking ratio just to aleiviate any neck issues if they arise. 

[71st_AH_Hooves]

They need to mount a little camera on the helmet and provide a selector to switch between application and camera view (bypassing the screen). A normal camera's price is not so high (30$?), but I think it's needed.

Yes this is a very good idea and has been talked to at length on many of the VR forums.  many want 2 cameras roughly placed near where each eye would be so when switching to it it would be less intrusive.  There always is even one more idea. Although its kind of pointless seeing as how the OR team has said the consumer version will have 6 dof.  But why not disable (if you can) your OR tracker and just use TIR?  kinda solves the problems there doesn't it. 

 

  Im super excited for mine to get here.  Should be the end of the month.  I cant wait to tinker with games that support it!  Great write up Jason!  i figured this is about the conclusion you would reach at OR's early stage of development.  I mean dude its not even out of the womb yet.  And some are wondering why it isn't scoring well on its SAT's.    Hope it makes the bill for support in BOS!

[Merlin]

I can't see 1:1 or 10:1 tracking being a long term problem with Motion sickness for most people.  Yes I used to get some when I first started to use the high ratio of Track IR but it soon became a non-issue.   High ratio tracking and motion blur could be a problem,  until they fix any resolution/latency/blur problems.   I'd like to see an option to dial in a tracking ratio just to aleiviate any neck issues if they arise. 

 

There's a big difference between TrackIR on a fixed monitor and VR. All reports indicate VR has to be 1:1. 

 

"Don???

[AndyJWest]

Judging by what the Team Fortress port developers say, I can foresee real motion sickness problems with a VR flight simulator:

 

 

 

Don???

[AndyJWest]

Hmmm. It seems the US military has had similar problems - an interesting read is Technical Report 1027 - Simulator Sickness in Virtual Environments from the US Army Research Institute, 1995: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a295861.pdf

[6S.Manu]

Judging by what the Team Fortress port developers say, I can foresee real motion sickness problems with a VR flight simulator:

 

Maybe it won't be that bad. Maybe they'll find a solution. Maybe...

 

Ouch!

Edited April 4, 2013 by 6S.Manu

[Feathered_IV]

[DD_bongodriver]

Motion sickness is something you get over with greater exposure to the situation bringing it about, the more you use VR the more used to it you get IMO, with VR you have the option to have a break each time a bout of sickness is coming on and with time your threshold will increase.

[JG4_Sputnik]

Also, real Fighter Pilots have to deal with motion sickness, too. I believe you can get used to it, as bongodriver has stated.

 

Maybe it also leeds to yourself doing more realistic maneuvers, a short dogfight and run, maybe charge again. Like dogfighting for 20 minutes isn't that realistic anyways.

 

And in Team Fortress for example you constantly are strafing and moving, in a Plane however you mostly fly steady and only now an then go in a dogfight.

I personally think it adds a lot of realism to the whole sim genre and I caaaan't wait to test it myself.

Edited April 4, 2013 by Sputnik

[BlitzPig_EL]

Frankly, motion sickness is not the kind of realistic feature I want in something I do for fun.

 

Nor would I want to just "get used to it".

 

What next, a spray bar on the bottom of the monitor that soaks you with hot oil, and smoke bombs that go off when your plane takes a hit?

 

I'll be sticking with Track IR.  Never had one vertigo issue with it.

 

We are not real pilots. (Well most of us anyway)

 

And we never will be.

[ram0506]

In the ATAG forums there is a guy who already has the oculus rift. He reported that on the first day he had some problems with motion sickness. But after a few days using the device the situation got better. Can`t tell what kind of software he used.

[AA_Engadin]

Motion sickness is something you get over with greater exposure to the situation bringing it about, the more you use VR the more used to it you get IMO, with VR you have the option to have a break each time a bout of sickness is coming on and with time your threshold will increase.

 

+1 here. Just like happens in RL: the first time I flew a glider as a passenger I almost throw the lunch over the instruments. My instructor made me learn it the hard way. Several days and hours of flight later, I kept feeling motion sickness [MS] but to a very acceptable level from then on.

 

IMHO and getting around the physically annoying part of it, MS should be the proof we all need to 'certificate' OR is THE virtual-reality device, given it makes us feel like the real thing while flying: not only the bright part of it - the sensation of flying - but the dark side aswell. Just like RL, where both sides live together for a while, until your body and mind get over it.

 

AA_Engadin.

[DD_bongodriver]

Yes I'm a bit perplexed by some of the reaction to the occulus, almost of anger in some cases, simply because it 'could' cause an extremely minor and temporary physiological side effect, I'm pretty sure it's use will never be compulsory.

seeing is believing in my opinion, and a device which will give me a wide field of view with 3d depth that follows my head movement realistically (i.e. I don't have to keep my eyes fixed on a screen as I move my head slightly to get a rearward view) will be the ultimate in immersion, HOTAS should take care of my most important cockpit functions and a clickable pit should take care of the rest, imagine a 3d pilots hand modelled in the cockpit that moves with the mouse, use the scroll wheel to change rotary selectors LMB to press buttons/flick switches and RMB to flick in another direction for those self centering multi operation type switches.

[71st_AH_Hooves]

I think the statement about making it HAVE To be 1:1 is completely false.  I put my VR 920 with my track IR and it was AWESOME.  no motion sickness what so ever.  And the other statement that the very fact that we got MS is a validification of the OR is a very real truth.  Those that want VR will get it and get over any MS. Those that dont want it, somehow want the whole idea trashed and vilified as a waste of time. 

 

   I for one hope that 777 go all the way with VR and make it a huge part of the the game as long as they can also provide a valid experience for those without it. 

 

On a side note I never get MS ever.  i am a pilot.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Hooves

[71st_AH_Hooves]

Judging by what the Team Fortress port developers say, I can foresee real motion sickness problems with a VR flight simulator:

 

 

 

 

Um... No rolling? No looping? 

 

 

 

 

 

Oooh.. No spins. No stalls?

 

 

 

Err... No dogfighting?

 

Maybe it won't be that bad. Maybe they'll find a solution. Maybe...

you are taking alot of these out of context.  changing the horizon line WITHOUT A FIXED REFERENCE is what causes what they are talking about.  It happens in real flight as well.  For instance a spotter staring out the airplane with a pair of binocs, then he pilot rolls the aircraft.  AAAAAAAAND Motion sick.

[AndyJWest]

I'm not taking anything out of context - read the US Army research paper on the subject, and note the conclusions they reach regarding 'simulator sickness' - and the simulators they describe will certainly have a 'fixed reference' for the horizon. There appears to be more to it than a minor transient effect - the abstract says that "A potential threat to using [VR] technology is the mild to severe discomfort that some users experience during or after a VE session".  Note that the report is basing much of its evidence on pilots - a group less likely to be prone to motion sickness than the average population. And note that it is "during or after" - the research notes reports of "flashbacks" that can "occur suddenly, long after the simulator experience has ended" - not exactly encouraging. It seems to me that the evidence is sufficient to be at least cautious when making statements regarding the practicality of using the Rift in air combat sims - there has been a great deal of hype regarding this product, and very little real evidence. When we see the evidence, we can decide for ourselves....

[JG27_Chivas]

The military study was done in 1995, and in a quick look of the doc I didn't see the specs of the VR unit they were testing with.  I'm not so sure the specs would have been that great regarding resolution etc.  Especially when they were experiencing high levels of MS etc in a driving simulation.  There is some MS being experienced in the Oculus Rift's latest  relatively low resolution prototype, but it will be interesting to see the amount of MS that is experienced in future Oculus prototypes with higher resolution, lower latency, higher FOV prototypes.  I'm sure there will still be some MS, but to what extent?   People have said the world is flat, so don't waste your time, but there are always people willing to fail.  Otherwise our world would be very boring place.

[AndyJWest]

People have said the world is flat

 

People said the Titanic was unsinkable. That has nothing to do with the Oculus Rift either... 

 

Three threads on motion sickness on Oculus forums:

https://developer.oculusvr.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=170&start=10

https://developer.oculusvr.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=170&start=10

http://oculusrift.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1593&start=20

 

From eurogamer.net "Oculus Rift impressions: It's amazing until it makes you want to hurl": 

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-09-05-oculus-rift-impressions-its-amazing-until-it-makes-you-want-to-hurl

 

From Forbes "Oculus Rift Could Be The Future of Gaming if It Doesn't Make You Throw Up":

http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2013/03/25/oculus-rift-could-be-the-future-of-gaming-if-it-doesnt-make-you-throw-up/

 

Like it or not, problems with motion sickness seem to be a recurring theme in Rift reviews. As for higher resolution displays etc being a solution to the problem, this seems questionable. Motion sickness is almost certainly caused by the disparity between what your eyes perceive as motion and what your vestibular system reports as happening - and making the visuals more 'real' isn't going to reduce the disparity. 

[StG2_Manfred]

I understand most of the explanations above, and well, time will show whether or not it will work out.

 

But when I think back to my first experiences with TrackIR I remember I felt sick and after a couple of hours/days I get used to it.

 

Also, when my girlfriend watched me flying in the sim the very first time (she was standing right behind me), she said she gets sick only from watching the screen.

 

Motion sickness is almost certainly caused by the disparity between what your eyes perceive as motion and what your vestibular system reports as happening - and making the visuals more 'real' isn't going to reduce the disparity. 

 

I agree completely, but my hope is: If I am a pilot and I want to do a looping for example, then my mind is prepared to what will happen now and (hopefully) "tell" it the vestibular system.

[AA_Engadin]

Four days to get rid of motion sickness is too much to wait for?   That is about the same time it took me to get used to the TIR motion sickness:

 

http://theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3907&page=2&highlight=oculus+rift

 

ATAG_Recoilfx post.

 

But in this case, IMHO what you get in return - the closest feeling so far to what a real WWII combat pilot experience is supposed to be - more than compensates this temporary annoyance. In the end, the same rewarding feeling I was gifted with when I became familiar with the TIR 1:10 motion ratio.

 

AA_Engadin

Edited April 5, 2013 by AA_Engadin

[AndyJWest]

What game was that though? It wasn't an air combat simulator...

[Sim]

i wonder if someone understood my solution:

 

keyboards are standar universal size so you put a position sensor on the keyboard in each corner

 

then the headtracker will know exactly where the keyboard is and renders a virtual keyboard in the same position than is the real

 

this position locators can be used on anything and its a mixture of reality and vr and actually pretty scarry stuff

 

I fail to see how this is even useful.. You will be able to see your keyboard position on the VR screen? What's the point if you can't see your hands? I very much doubt you ever loose the sense of your keyboard location - it's always in front of you.

[StG2_Manfred]

A quite simple solution and therefore much more realistic:

 

Put a webcam over your keyboard and define a key on your HOTAS to switch the recording picture on or off in your Oculus Rift --> and you can easiliy see, where your real hand is :-)