My frustration with two seaters

[HagarTheHorrible]

My biggest frustration, when flying two seaters, is that you essentially have to treat them as an undergunned Scout.  I’ve tried, on numerous occasions, to try and fight as a co-ordinated weapon platform only for the A.I gunner to pop away at vast range and at  high aspect angles, but when you try and fly in such a manner as to give him easy shots from a stable platform, he often as not just sits there with a thumb up his arse while the enemy knocks lumps out of you from 20 yards off.  

 

I do think it would be a big PLUS to this game if a pilot could have some belief that flying in an advantageous way, for the gunner, would improve your odds rather than Annihilate them. At the moment, the ability of the rear gunner is no better than simple dumb luck, he might snipe an enemy from a thousand yards  in the most trying of circumstances and then utterly fail to shoot the enemy flying perfectly steadily 20 yards off and straight in front of him.

[BMA_Hellbender]

I absolutely love the Halberstadt exactly because of this. The AI gunners only become effective when deployed in large numbers, and even then it's really hit and miss. It changes the game into more of a group activity that is less focused on direct air-to-air combat, even if you are outgunned and underpowered most of the time. Though it may sound crazy and suicidal (and it is most of the time), almost everyone who's joined us lately keeps coming back for more. But please don't join the flying infantry if you value your life and your streak.

 

You could try for the Bristol and if possible get a human gunner to accompany you. It's nowhere near as deadly effective as it was in RoF, but it's still a rewarding experience if you're disciplined enough. I have to admit that I've lost the patience for it.

[HagarTheHorrible]

Sorry, I just think there should be an increase in the odds, if you try and fly to maximise the shooting opportunities of your gunner.  A bit like the new pilot physiology parameters, if you fly like a hooligan then you will make yourself more vulnerable and miss opportunities.  If on the other hand, you fly in a considered manner, you can improve the ability and accuracy of your gunner.  At the moment, you can fly a gently arcing curve, allowing for a perfect shooting solution for your gunner, as an enemy Scout closes in on your high 7, or 5,  leaving you extremely vulnerable, only for the gunner to start picking his nose.

 

Flying two seaters, there has to be a commitment to the abilities of your partner, whether real, or A.I,  it can’t be only left to pure chance, that doesn’t make for a good game as it negates tactics or skill, apart from that of the pilot, in which case you may as well just fly a Scout.

 

I don’t particularly like flying as a gunner because I don’t think it works particularly well in VR, but I have a question.  Does a player controlled gunner suffer more from the effects of the new physiology modelling ?  My expectation is that they should be more vulnerable to various forces.

[Zooropa_Fly]

Agree Hagar, the bot plane gunners manage to hit you from up 1300m - I'd imagine irl only a total novice would try a shoot from that range.

We're never far away from being remindedof the golden rule close..and closer still ! How about modelling the firing range in accordance with the skill level ?

I frequently turn my gunner off to stop the idiot wasting ammo, but frquently forget to re-activate the swine !

And yes, then there's the occasions he's staring down the barrel at point blank range and doesn't shoot.

That can be frustrating, beacuse if you're flying to give the gunner shots and he's not doing anything, you're sacrificing position. So in the end you think 'sod this' and start dogfighting as if in a single seater.

[NO.20_W_M_Thomson]

Don't you guys set your gunner for close range?  When I'm dog fighting in the Bristol I try and find the best angel for the gunner to react. It's killer when on the 6 of your enemy and just below enough he can shoot at then just a bit lower than you on either side, watch to see how your gunner reacts. I had an awesome time last night watching my gunner go from side to side shooting our enemy, I thought it was a real player in my back seat the way it was moving, had to check to see if someone jumped in my gunner seat. Just don't let anyone on your 6, do a ton of s turns and watch your gunner.

[No.23_Gaylion]

Not saying that it is the correct thing to do, but historically the observers would crack a few rounds off long range at someone to let the enemy know he wasn't asleep.

 

When you read the historical accounts they sound very similar to what we see in game. Sometimes the attacker got hit, most times they didn't. You'd have gunners expend all their ammunition hitting nothing, you had gunners that got instantly killed, you had gunners that had an arm missing and still shot down planes, and you had gunners that fired a super quick short burst and instantly killed or flamed the attacking scout.

 

 

[emely]

Al has a training level from beginner to ace.  Who do we deal with online?  The machine gunner of the bot can be configured so that it will have 100% hits with the physical ability to hit the target.  Therefore, the game introduced his ability to make mistakes.  Honestly, it seems to me that after several patches, the effectiveness of the rear machine guns on two-seater aircraft has become less.

[NO.20_W_M_Thomson]

2 hours ago, emely said:

the effectiveness of the rear machine guns on two-seater aircraft has become less.

I heard many were complaining they were too accurate so they must have dumbed them down a bit. 

Like I said earlier take out a 2 seater and find out were the gunner likes to shoot at. I've so far have seen at your 12 and along side. Watch how accurate they are when on your 12, much more fire power than your single gun in the Bristol. The gunner in FC are far more superior than in ROF, You tell it to attack the balloon it'll attack the balloon.

Would be cool if they could communicate with us more like on your 5:00 clock  or high 7, I bet it would be a bitch to do but I bet it can be done. 

[emely]

Why respect you?  For that respect you that you are prey for fighters?  They don’t thank the food, they thank the Lord for it.  If you sat on a double - pray and be able to stand up for yourself.  To the four dogs all your nagging

fight

https://youtu.be/PtaDZ4b6-Zs

[emely]

Here's what it means to not double-check Google's translation twice.  This thing is dangerous guys.

[SeaW0lf]

On 12/30/2019 at 10:37 PM, NO.20_W_M_Thomson said:

I heard many were complaining they were too accurate so they must have dumbed them down a bit. 

 

Not in a bit. They keep having sniping abilities. They might have limited their movements [if so], especially if the server is using novice level, but they are still deadly. Today I engaged two Halbs in a row (a sortie apart) and I killed both, but they got plenty of hits on me and the first time I had to rush to land with a punctured tank. I was being hit by long shots as well and the AI was tilting the plane to allow for shots or going on a descendant turn. It is easier when they are on deck, but with altitude she is a handful.

 

The only difference is that our planes won't fold wings anymore, because if it was in ROF, I would be dead in the first sortie (would probably lose my wing) and be shaking like Jerry Lee Lewis in the second one (would probably quit the fight).

 

Only when they model the turret with g-forces that stops the gunner to fire in sharp turns, split-Ses and that sort of thing, mess the aim (They could create an algorithm for the balance of the gun and the gunner with g-forces), stop firing when reloading the other gun (on the Bristol), bring the gun to a stop position to reload, etc, and the end of weapon mods (for the Halb in this case) unless in special / specific missions, the two-seaters will continue to carry this stigma of either fodder (in the hand of novices) or killing machines (in the hand of veterans). Hence why few people fly them.

 

Just because our planes won’t fold wings anymore, the level of realism grew tenfold when talking about scouts vs two-seaters (In ROF you better not even try to engage a two-seater manned by players). Now imagine if they get the g-forces right, the reloading hassle, no aiming arc, etc? Then we might get to what we read in books. Like Talbot said, here and there we see accounts of dangerous gunners in heroic fights, but 99% of the time they are just holding tight for their lives and praying that the pilot does not get killed. The books are all about scouts, aces, lone wolves. The majoroty of them wanted to get to Fokkers and Spads. Stark has an account of facing Bristols in disadvantage at the end of the war and he forced one to land (with pilot and gunner) like it was not a big deal. He might have tossed the Bristol around making it impossible for the gunner to fire, forcing them to quit (I think it was something like it). Try to force a Bristol to land here… You will end up eating dirt or getting toasted like a roast.

 

Edited January 3, 2020 by SeaW0lf

[NO.20_W_M_Thomson]

I'm having fun in the Bristol, My wing man and I beat up a couple of d7's, not sure if they were ai or not, But we did a booboo and collided, but it was a good fight, actually think the d7's had no chance. The more we practice in these planes the more I'm liking them. thing can turn fight.

 

You know the 20th squad  was one of the highest scoring squads during WW1 flying fe2b's and Bristol's. 

[BornToBattle]

Yeah, sometimes the gunners can be a real dunce. Not the guys I fly with though. They are always on top of things. The latest screenshot from a mission last week...