We need limited rearward view in fighters!

[MasserME262]

reading the comments, I wonder:

 

am I the only stupid who has a really hard time trying to check 6 even with TiR?

 

Also, I didn't even know VR users "hate" TiR users for "owl" style. Wtf people, buy a TiR then, it's not that expensive. I envy you to have a VR after all. Can't get the complaining, god...

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

15 minutes ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

Wtf people, buy a TiR then,

 

Most of us VR players have moved on from TIR.

 

I had the original TIR and then later the TIR4 when 6DOF was released.

 

TIR hasn't been used since I got VR. For me, it's about moving forward the immersion and realism level.

 

[MasserME262]

50 minutes ago, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

 

Most of us VR players have moved on from TIR.

 

I had the original TIR and then later the TIR4 when 6DOF was released.

 

TIR hasn't been used since I got VR. For me, it's about moving forward the immersion and realism level.

 

I understand the realism thing, I like it too. But then I remember than my real body is in a chair at home in a safe place, without feeling G forces... and maybe with a coffee and a beer at hand.

So while looking for realism is ok, what we get is not even close to the real thing.

 

About the VR users complaining, I insist, as you said, most of them used TiR before, so instead of complaining, they can use the TiR. Its not that they dont have it... they prefer to use VR, so, dont complain!

 

That's just my opinion in life actually, if you have X and Y choices and you choose X, don't complain about the existing and using of Y.

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

15 minutes ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

About the VR users complaining, I insist, as you said, most of them used TiR before, so instead of complaining, they can use the TiR. Its not that they dont have it... they prefer to use VR, so, dont complain!

 

That's just my opinion in life actually, if you have X and Y choices and you choose X, don't complain about the existing and using of Y.

 

I think you are missing the point here though. If it were only TIR that was an option and VR was not available, I would still be in favour of view restrictions. Its not about one technology vs another.

Do you agree that by having a very simple ability to view planes approaching your 6 oclock, that this changes the dynamics of air combat vs a what I believe would realistically be a poor view to the rear of the plane due to physical constraints?

 

One day I hope you get the chance to own a VR set. I would be interested to see if your perspective on this discussion changes once you have some VR dogfight hours under your belt.

[sniperton]

49 minutes ago, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

If it were only TIR that was an option and VR was not available, I would still be in favour of view restrictions. Its not about one technology vs another.

Do you agree that by having a very simple ability to view planes approaching your 6 oclock, that this changes the dynamics of air combat vs a what I believe would realistically be a poor view to the rear of the plane due to physical constraints?

If you're restricted to one-eyed vision projected on a flat screen, bigger head movements are required than in real life where two-eye vision enables you to see backwards even if your head is just turning sidewards. The seemingly more movement freedom TiR users have is just a compensation for this deficiency of one-eyed vision and flat screen technology.

If VR doesn't provide you with the peripheral view of natural two-eye vision, it's not the fault of the TiR technology.

 

 

[SharpeXB]

6 hours ago, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

That 2cm of TIR head movement to look past the armour plate lots of effort is it?

It’s simply the different between just turning your head or turning your head and leaning. Not a big difference but it’s still there

The point is, you’re asking for “limited” head movement would actually make checking six easier. DCS is quite realistic in that regard. 

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

2 minutes ago, sniperton said:

bigger head movements are required than in real life

 

TIR requiring more head movement than real life? Yeah I don't think so.

 

 

 

 

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

what I believe would realistically be a poor view to the rear of the plane due to physical constraints?

Did you see the video posted earlier of the 109 pilot looking behind him? It is possible to look at your six from the cockpit. We just have an easier time of it in a game. Unless you want force feedback VR...

[sniperton]

1 minute ago, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

TIR requiring more head movement than real life? Yeah I don't think so.

If you have only one eye, you have to move your head more than what's needed with two eyes. You can easily check it by closing one of your eyes

[SharpeXB]

13 minutes ago, sniperton said:

 two-eye vision enables you to see backwards even if your head is just turning sidewards.

IRL yes. But in VR the headset’s FOV restricts this ability, like wearing a scuba mask. That’s why VR users complain about this so much. 

Edited December 30, 2019 by SharpeXB

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

1 minute ago, sniperton said:

If you have only one eye, you have to move your head more than what's needed with two eyes. You can easily check it by closing one of your eyes

That's still nothing to do with the tiny amount of distance you move your head in TIR vs reality.

 

3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Did you see the video posted earlier of the 109 pilot looking behind him? It is possible to look at your six from the cockpit. We just have an easier time of it in a game. Unless you want force feedback VR...

Yes and I commented on it. That plane has no backrest or any armour plate. We can mimic the same thing in VR when in a turn. That's not the same as looking directly behind your plane with your single 'eye' in the best position possible at the top corner of the canopy.

[Raven109]

27 minutes ago, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

That's still nothing to do with the tiny amount of distance you move your head in TIR vs reality.

 

Yes and I commented on it. That plane has no backrest or any armour plate. We can mimic the same thing in VR when in a turn. That's not the same as looking directly behind your plane with your single 'eye' in the best position possible at the top corner of the canopy.

 

The G4 has armored glass in game as well, so the comparison between real life G4 and in game G4 still stands, but that is irrelevant to the point I was trying to make.

 

The original post was about how easy it is in game to swivel your head during combat (i.e during actual manouvering) and this was why I posted the video.

On 12/26/2019 at 3:11 AM, KB-Kriechbaum said:

In the current game, you can turn around like a robot and fly any maneuver comfortably with your neck turned around 180 degrees. 

 

A human pilot would encounter some rather unpleasant obstacles doing that, mainly the straps, the limitations of a neck, the G-forces while having the head turned all the way back. 

 

You are now making the point that TIR users need to move their head very little, which is far away from saying that the in game pilot movement needs limiting. 

 

Let's say that the devs will implement real-life restrictions to how the pilot head moves in-game. For a TIR user, or for that matter a hat-switch user, movement will still be easier than for the VR user, even with those restrictions. There is no way to force either the TIR user or the hat-switch user to turn their heads the same amount that the VR user has to, because forcing them to do this  (assuming the extreme here, to make a point) will mean that they won't see the screen anymore.

Edited December 30, 2019 by Raven109

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

1 minute ago, Raven109 said:

Let's say that the devs will implement real-life restrictions to how the pilot head moves in-game. For a TIR user, or for that matter a hat-switch user, movement will still be easier than for the VR user, even with those restrictions. There is no way to force either the TIR user or the hat-switch user to turn their heads the same amount that the VR user has to, because forcing them to do this will mean that they won't see the screen anymore.

 

This I don't believe is the intention. You are correct, it's not achievable to make them move as much as VR. But being able to move more than is physically possible of a pilot is not correct.

 

A TIR players floating eyeball can move to positions in the cockpit that are not possible in RL.

 

5 minutes ago, Raven109 said:

The G4 has armored glass in game as well, so the comparison between real life G4 and in game G4 still stands.

 

Armoured glass in an ingame 109 still has a backrest. The 109 in that clip has nothing higher than the middle back, so not exactly the same. His rearward visibility is better than any wartime 109.

To get the best 6 view when flying straight, a TIR player moves their view to the top rear corner of the cockpit. Ignoring the 109 for a moment, look at Lagg or Yak1 as an example.

[Sgt_Joch]

I don't see why this is such a big deal, many flight sims, including as I recall the original IL-2? had that restriction.

 

It can be a realism option that prevents you from looking at the 160-200 arc. Players and servers would be free to use it or not as they see fit.

[Leon_Portier]

Oh yeah, that restriction really bothered me in IL2 1946, not being able to look behind me.

I dont understand the big fuzz. Everyone can look behind in BoS, no matter if you use a hat switch to look around, keyboard or some headtracker. In VR you probably have to put more effort in looking behind you, I dunno, but that your choice after all.

 

Edit: Restricting rear view would also restrict VR users with very flexible necks and I can´t get behind that!

Edited December 30, 2019 by Leon_Portier

[MasserME262]

what I still cant get is the "oh poor me I live with a perpetual disadvantage because I want realism and those evil owls have it all easy"...

 

cmon people, what a childish discussion. If it makes you happy, my "owl device" makes me feel more dizzy and lost than the mouse. Stop crying.

[SharpeXB]

59 minutes ago, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

Yes and I commented on it. That plane has no backrest or any armour plate. We can mimic the same thing in VR when in a turn. That's not the same as looking directly behind your plane with your single 'eye' in the best position possible at the top corner of the canopy.

The lack of the armor plate doesn’t affect the pilots ability to turn their head. I agree that the single eye rear view is a bit unrealistic but it’s not really an advantage. It’s better to turn just like a real head does and look back around the headrest or over it. 
It’s possible that the single 6:00 snap still exists for snap view or mouse look players. I don’t know how the realistic head turn would work with those since there isn’t a single 180 view, you need to look to one side or the other. 

5 minutes ago, ME-BFMasserME262 said:

what I still cant get is the "oh poor me I live with a perpetual disadvantage because I want realism and those evil owls have it all easy"...

 

cmon people, what a childish discussion. If it makes you happy, my "owl device" makes me feel more dizzy and lost than the mouse. Stop crying.

Yeah I don’t know why some players are obsessed with handicapping their opponents. Everyone has the same commands available to them. And VR users wanted reality so they’ve got it. If it puts you at a disadvantage to actually have to physically move, well again you asked for that. 

15 minutes ago, Leon_Portier said:

Oh yeah, that restriction really bothered me in IL2 1946, not being able to look behind me.

That’s not a realistic restriction. Pilots ARE actually able to turn and look as shown in the video. We can just do it easier. 

[Raven109]

43 minutes ago, Sgt_Joch said:

I don't see why this is such a big deal, many flight sims, including as I recall the original IL-2? had that restriction.

 

It can be a realism option that prevents you from looking at the 160-200 arc. Players and servers would be free to use it or not as they see fit.

 

The 109 pilot in the video I posted is looking at 180 (he probably can't see anything dead-six, but neither can you in game). Of course, unlike many VR players I've seen on YT, he's turning his whole upper body to achieve those angles. Limiting the angle to 160-200 is not realistic.

 

As it is now, the VR users can move as freely as the TIR/hat-switch users. It's just a matter of effort. And any limits you impose, the TIR and the hat-switch users will still move within those limits with less physical effort.

 

109 view by using the keyboard (max view limits):

 

VR 109 six o'clock view (not my video) go to 4:49:

 

 

Another VR 109 looking dead six (1:29):

 

 

Edited December 30, 2019 by Raven109

[sniperton]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

IRL yes. But in VR the headset’s FOV restricts this ability, like wearing a scuba mask. That’s why VR users complain about this so much. 

Yep, my point was that it's pointless to limit TiR just because VR has some limitations (together with plenty of advantages over TiR).

[69th_Panp]

Thanks Raven 109

Just the clip I was looking for perfect!

 

KB-Kriechbaum

read 

First light by Geoffrey Wellum

Great read by the way

 but using tail clearing turns and looking over you shoulders was the only way you survived 

 

[FTC_Kriechbaum]

15 hours ago, 69th_Panp said:

KB-Kriechbaum

read 

First light by Geoffrey Wellum

Great read by the way

 but using tail clearing turns and looking over you shoulders was the only way you survived 

 

Exactly. I think some people here did not read my first post. I am not addressing any of the more gamer - type people here. Their views on any topic that tries to discuss the implementation of another feature for the sake of more realism is clear from the beginning. They drift into discussing "fair, not fair, whining VR users, advantage, disadvantage" and fail to see that the features that make this game so enjoyable are based on how it would be in reality. 

 

Some people argue : "You don't need to add realism feature XYZ because you sit on a chair at home" so, because you are not really flying a plane, don't even try to make it as realistic as POSSIBLE, right? 

I remember the same arguments about the blacking out. 

 

The point is not to deliberately put anybody at a disadvantage and others not. The point is to simulate air combat. For this we already have very accurate planes with accurate specifications. We have a very impressive flight model, damage model. Now we even have physiology of the pilot regarding g-forces. All of these features are puzzle parts that make this game what it is. This here would just add to the whole. 

 

The problem :

You cannot put your point of view outside of where your virtual head would be. Your head has a shape, is attached to your body and thus can logically only move inside those boundaries. At the moment you move your point of view within the boundaries of the cockpit (VR and TIR). 

 

Solution : Give the point of view a range of motion within the boundaries of the virtual head.

 

Of course it could be implemented as an option, so the gamers can still enjoy the more arcade style of playing. 

 

[Raven109]

2 hours ago, KB-Kriechbaum said:

They drift into discussing "fair, not fair, whining VR users, advantage, disadvantage" and fail to see that the features that make this game so enjoyable are based on how it would be in reality. 

 

Well, you literally mentioned in your initial post that it's also about fairness to the VR guys. So people went and discussed fairness?

On 12/26/2019 at 3:11 AM, KB-Kriechbaum said:

Would be also fairer towards VR - guys. 

 

Just to be clear, I'm all for limiting the motion of the body to have a more realistic behavior, but what some requested is not realistic, some of the requests are only related to how VR users behave. How some VR players behave (i.e. not turning all the way around because of comfort) is not how real pilots behave, which do turn around (actually, they will do anything possible to not lose sight of the enemy plane, disregarding own comfort - "lose sight, lose the fight" - I don't believe dog fighting is by any means a comfortable experience). Limiting the ability to turn backwards is not realistic, according to the 109 video.

 

Also, people are only discussing about the movement of the head and forgetting that pilots can move their whole upper body (to a certain degree), which means that the head can move even more, than say the head of someone who doesn't move their body.

 

Limiting, or making head movement harder to control during high-G maneuvers would possibly be realistic in some situations, although:

 

 

 

One more, just for fun:

 

Edited December 31, 2019 by Raven109

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Raven109 said:

How some VR players behave (i.e. not turning all the way around because of comfort) is not how real pilots behave, which do turn around (actually, they will do anything possible to not lose sight of the enemy plane, disregarding own comfort - "lose sight, lose the fight" - I don't believe dog fighting is by any means a comfortable experience). Limiting the ability to turn backwards is not realistic, according to the 109 video.

This. VR players aren’t complaining about realism, they’re complaining about ease and comfort. It’s abundantly clear from those videos how much a pilot can turn and look IRL.

[Fern]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

This. VR players aren’t complaining about realism, they’re complaining about ease and comfort. It’s abundantly clear from those videos how much a pilot can turn and look IRL.

 

I dont think anyone complained about the being uncomfortable.

 

Those videos Raven posted, show you can't check dead six like you can ingame.

[SharpeXB]

22 minutes ago, Fern said:

 

I dont think anyone complained about the being uncomfortable.

 

Those videos Raven posted, show you can't check dead six like you can ingame.

Well VR players complain about it being more difficult for them. 
 

And besides not being realistic the dead six 180 view isn’t even useful in the game as you’re looking into your headrest. Agree if it was more like DCS it would be more realistic and actually easier. But the rearward view shouldn’t be artificially limited. 

[Raven109]

19 minutes ago, Fern said:

 

I dont think anyone complained about the being uncomfortable.

 

Those videos Raven posted, show you can't check dead six like you can ingame.

 

Well, actually people did complain about being uncomfortable when comparing VR to TIR and hat-switch. Because it is easier to change your view when using TIR or a hat-switch.

 

By looking at the videos, I think you can actually check six (especially the last video shows this, and the 109 video), the difference to what we have in-game is that in reality you cannot hold that position for long - in reality you are actually straining to hold that position.

 

But, at the same time, I cannot see how the devs could implement this (not being able to hold a position for long) without it becoming awkward, be it for VR, TIR or hat-switch users. Maybe for the hat-switch users it's easier, you could just force the view to center, but for the other guys, who actually have to physically turn their head to look around, I don't see any solution at the moment.

[SharpeXB]

10 minutes ago, Raven109 said:

I cannot see how the devs could implement this (not being able to hold a position for long) without it becoming awkward

Sure. There could be force-feedback VR. With motors attached to your neck to pull your head around... ?

[Raven109]

Here's another one, at 1:34, you can literally see the pilot looking dead six:

 

Pic of that moment:

 

Whole video, look from 1:33 onwards:

 

 

Edited December 31, 2019 by Raven109

[Fern]

That's not dead six. He has to use peripheral vision.  TrackIR looks straight back.

[Raven109]

2 minutes ago, Fern said:

That's not dead six. He has to use peripheral vision.  TrackIR looks straight back.

 

You're still looking dead six, whether it's peripheral vision or not. You still can see that an aircraft is behind you. Some guys here wanted to limit the virtual pilot from looking at dead-six. Which is very far away from looking at dead six by using peripheral vision.

 

If you look further, the pilot is actually tracking the contact from high six to approximately his dead six. Not easy to do, but possible.

[Fern]

Ok, he can see dead six, but out of peripheral. So it's somewhat limited. 

 

Here's a good example of dead six owl neck...

 

 

[SharpeXB]

Honestly it doesn’t matter. 

The bottom line is IRL you can actually look behind you.

Edited December 31, 2019 by SharpeXB

[=TBAS=Sshadow14]

On 12/30/2019 at 11:45 AM, Fern said:

Maybe make an option to "loosen straps" / " tighten straps".

 

Loosen straps = less resistance to G's / more head bobbing when aiming  / less restriction to check six. Make the key unbindable.

 

Tighten straps = normal mode

 

That would be creating something that never happened or was really a thing? 
Much like Economic System of planes you fly and can use like some servers. 

 

[Fern]

2 hours ago, =TBAS=Sschatten14 said:

That would be creating something that never happened or was really a thing? 
Much like Economic System of planes you fly and can use like some servers. 

 

 

Yeah, no idea if it's right.

 

There's a real fighter pilot on here (GoPre). I asked him to comment. Hopefully he has time.

[19//Moach]

I would argue in favor of a DCS-like neck motion implementation, especially because I am using TrackIR.

 

It gets strangely uncomfortable after a while when your brain keeps arguing with your neck muscles, about how the position your eyes are reporting should not be physically attainable at your current posture. 

 

The near-natural interaction of TrackIR is such that the mind can make that muscle-memory shortcut which bypasses having to think about what movements cause what results. View control by head motion thus quickly becomes second nature. (users often report instinctively moving their heads trying to look around while watching videos of gameplay, to obviously unprofitable results.)

 

 

But with unnatural head positions being so easily reached, within just a couple of hours this sub-conscious eye-to-muscle shortcut starts to cause a bit of neck strain.

 

The brain seems to find an "almost there" point, somewhere in Uncanny Valley, where virtual reality comes so close to the real thing that the mind allows itself falling back to instinct. Yet coming up just short of the instinctively expected result, this backfires and causes a subtle but cumulative muscle tensioning response.

 

 

A more natural head motion implementation would allow the more immersion-minded of us to relax a bit, without that sub-logical nagging about how "Your head can't possibly be doing that!" forcing your muscle to second-guess themselves into knots;  Because eyes continually insist that what they see contradicts the mentally hardwired geometric constrains imposed by having bones.

Edited January 1, 2020 by 19//Moach

[Fastbikkel]

Do i have any relevance here when i say i use TiR5 with Requiems profile, but i cannot look at my rear view at all? 

I do not wish to highjack this topic, but i looked for info on this but could not find it.

WHen i move my head, it goes about 90deg left/right at max.

I use rearview button for now, but this is a fixed view.

Against the AI in mission i cheat by looking at the outside of my plane a lot to get a good feel of what is happning behind me. But when i decide to go online, this would not be ok in my mind.

 

I really wished i understood how to reconfigure the TiR profile so i can look back at all.

I opted to buy TiR instead of VR. I tried VR but i felt really uncomfortable wearing it, i could hardly breathe through my nose  ;-)

 

 

[FTC_Kriechbaum]

On 12/31/2019 at 2:36 PM, Raven109 said:

Well, you literally mentioned in your initial post that it's also about fairness to the VR guys. So people went and discussed fairness?

 

I mentioned, it would also be fairer. I did not say making it fairer is the purpose of my idea. It would be a nice side effect.

The purpose of it all would be to make the game more realistic.

 

Such changes do not need to be too pronounced either. Its all about little adjustments till its about right.  At the moment i can turn my virtual head right and still look out of my planes left rearward window ? 

 

The videos of real pilots looking back are supporting the initial idea to limit the rearward view, because those guys cannot see over the headrest parallel the longitudinal axis of their plane nor can they turn 180° to look back .They look up, not straight back. And again, these modern cockpits are made wider as a consequence of having bad rearward view, if you are boxed in like in a 109  or spit, etc. It would help to sit down in some fighter planes, if you have the chance, just to check.

 

I think a nice subtle blur on the monitors edge when you turn the head to the maximum would be a nice effect, like when only one of your eyes can still see backwards and you cannot see as sharp due to peripherical view.

 

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, KB-Kriechbaum said:

 

I think a nice subtle blur on the monitors edge when you turn the head to the maximum would be a nice effect, like when only one of your eyes can still see backwards and you cannot see as sharp due to peripherical view.

That would be pretty awkward and people would hate it. 

2 hours ago, KB-Kriechbaum said:

The videos of real pilots looking back are supporting the initial idea to limit the rearward view,

If they made this more realistic like DCS, it’s actually not a “limit”. It actually makes it easier to look backward. Since your virtual head automatically looks over or around the seat back. 

[=420=Syphen]

On 12/31/2019 at 12:52 PM, SharpeXB said:

And besides not being realistic the dead six 180 view isn’t even useful in the game as you’re looking into your headrest. 

 

You must not know how to setup 6dof in TrackIR software very well - you can easily it up to move your head up, and to the side in order to look around these headrests.Yet you seem to come back around to it as the basis for your argument in every post. Hung up on this one?

 

 

[SharpeXB]

19 minutes ago, [CPT]HawkeyeP said:

 

You must not know how to setup 6dof in TrackIR software very well - you can easily it up to move your head up, and to the side in order to look around these headrests.Yet you seem to come back around to it as the basis for your argument in every post. Hung up on this one?

Sure I can do that. My point is that I wouldn’t worry about the 180 owl neck because it isn’t an advantage. Why be worried that your opponent can snap view their headrest?