P-38 as fighter

[Bremspropeller]

Hi fellas, has anybody yet got the chance of getting reasonably good in the P-38?

 

It's kind of a mixed bag for me so far:

While you manage to shoot down some pople, you're usually seal-clubbed by the more competent players (or those who fly with wingmen).

 

It currently is the best fighter-bomber in game: It combines speed and climb. It will carry 500lbs more than the P-47 and will leave it standing in the dust at low altitudes and with jabo-loadouts.

It's the only fighter that can do an Immelmann after take-off with a ton of bombs attached.

 

The major downsides I have singled out so far are:

- you can't see duck in formation and  while scanning to the sides; navigation is a little harder, too

- it doesn't roll at low to medium speeds

- it likes to lawndart on dive-attacks if you're not careful

- it's very nose-heavy (just like the Jug) at low speeds and needs a ton of up-trim to generate tolerable nose-rates at low speeds

- the dive-flaps help out in nose-pointing, but they add too much drag going uphill

 

It's not really the most performing airplane in the late '44 to '45 timeframe, but there's got to be some exploitable positives, too...

The maneuver flaps are a cool tool, but they won't impress a K-4 on meth.

 

[=RvE=Windmills]

Make them overshoot conserving as much energy as possible and get guns on them when they try to regain alt. It is capable of putting rounds on target at very long range with the ammo count, stability, climb and nose mounts.

 

With manoeuvre flaps, then with 100% flaps when slow enough gives you a chance against enemies that do commit to a turn fight. In an actual dogfight try and read energy states and make use of it. Usually its possible to make something happen as long as you don't get caught completely unaware.

 

Though tbh just fly it on berloga and get 100 dogfights in a row for practice.

[ZachariasX]

9 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

While you manage to shoot down some pople, you're usually seal-clubbed by the more competent players (or those who fly with wingmen).

Sounds like every MP sortie I made in my whole life. ?

 

I like the P-38, even though there are some restrictions regarding cocpit view. HOWEVER, you can restrict your own exposure by flying at 48% mixture, leaving no smoke trails at emergency power. heat is no issue. It often enough comes as a surprise to your prey that you creep up to them, especially in steeper climbs while supposedly flying at reduced power. Also, you can set convergence rather far making it a great sniper. Use that extra ammo in the BMG and you'll smipe up to 600 meters. If it should still fly, then you can take care of t later on with all guns at close range.

 

Downside is that it is almost impossible to run away from the late war Luftwaffles. Nevertheless, at full power and combat flaps you'll outturn them all on the deck. Well, all of them besides the unicorn on meth, true that. But even for that one it takes considerable skill to outturn you. At altitide you'll easily outturn them (as in the P-51) due to your yankee fancy pants. If you run out of air underneath you, add combat flaps and full power (don't do that up high, you'll need it down between the trees) and any Luftie staying in the circle with you will end up dead. In this situation, only another Luftie coming in the circle from above will torn into you, but at this point they will do so with you flying any other plane.

 

 

[[DBS]Browning]

4 minutes ago, =RvE=Windmills said:

Though tbh just fly it on berloga and get 100 dogfights in a row for practice.

 

Whilst this is good advice, it should come with caveats. 

Berloga will teach you lots of things, but there are things it won't teach, such as wider situational awareness, and bad habits it will give you, such as a reluctance to disengage. 

[Jaegermeister]

I do mostly A2G for all the reasons you have mentioned. You also forgot to say it has twice the frontal area of most fighters so it acts like a magnet in almost every head on cannon duel.

 

It's major upside is that it is a great turn fighter with combat flaps, good acceleration and low speed handling. Although the visibility is terrible to the sides and down, looking down over the nose when pulling lead is great. There is also no convergence so snap shots as enemy AC cross in front are usually right through the engine, cockpit and down the fuselage.

 

I can't help with the online strategy thing, not really my cup of tea. I do like the 48% mixture trick though. It's not like they didn't already know what plane you were flying, and hence what side you are on. 

[69TD_Hajo_Garlic]

Side vis is bad but it rolls well enough to compensate. In combat against 190s climbing turns work well, against 109s flat turn and roll.  Use your lack of torque to turn to the enemy’s weak side.  

3 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

The maneuver flaps are a cool tool, but they won't impress a K-4 on meth.

If a k4 try’s to mix it up with you and not use its speed you are at a significant advantage.

 

Im not the most amazing pilot out there but I am a heavy fighter enthusiast and these tips hold true for all of them.

most of your advantages are offensive (firepower, ordinance, etc) and most of your weaknesses are defensive (size, visibility, etc). This requires a safer play style to be successful, you can’t really approach fights like a yak or 190 where you may hold a significant performance advantage in one area than your opponents. When being shot at make yourself smaller. No, you cannot deflate like a balloon but you can pull up or down while rolling 90 degrees to make yourself harder to hit and making your cockpit and engines less vulnerable. In head ons spray those machine guns much farther than you normally would. While I have got a cheeki kill over a km out doing so, the reason is to make the opponent break (which they often do) giving you either a nice angle off shot or an opportunity to lead turn for the kill. In heavy fighters you usually have a significant advantage in being able to dump speed easily (the mosquito and c6 will probably be exceptions). When I see I’m being bounced from far out by a significantly faster opponent I dump my speed early and do whatever it takes to deny a guns solution and it can really give you a fighting chance especially on overly aggressive opponents. 

As far as lawn darting goes on ground attack, I’ve been thinking about practicing lobbing bombs and seeing if that will help some. Otherwise before you get ready to dive I would cut throttle, pull up and side slip down to avoid over speeding. Gl

 

tbh in multiplayer I have not got many p38 sorties In because the axis is usually outnumbered now but I’m still flying my 110 in 45 and have been really digging the 38 in qmb’s and the brief campaign I had with it (trees got me)

Edited December 21, 2019 by Hajo_Garlic

[Sgt_Joch]

One big advantage since all the guns are on the nose and you can carry a lot of ammo is being able to snipe at long range and walk the rounds onto the target.

[BlitzPig_EL]

The 38 is my "go to" ground attack bird, and in a pinch it can work air to air, sort of.  If I have any expectation of fighting enemy fighters, I will take a Mustang or a Spitfire, and live with their more limited bomb loads.

 

Under no circumstances would I fly a P47.  It's nothing but a big, fat, fish out of water in the low alt, tactical assault format that is the current state of this Sim.

 

I don't know how Gambit21 is going to make a satisfying scripted campaign with the Jug as the central protagonist.  If there is any AI fighter opposition, the jugs will be slaughtered.

[Beazil]

36 minutes ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

The 38 is my "go to" ground attack bird, and in a pinch it can work air to air, sort of.  If I have any expectation of fighting enemy fighters, I will take a Mustang or a Spitfire, and live with their more limited bomb loads.

 

Under no circumstances would I fly a P47.  It's nothing but a big, fat, fish out of water in the low alt, tactical assault format that is the current state of this Sim.

 

I don't know how Gambit21 is going to make a satisfying scripted campaign with the Jug as the central protagonist.  If there is any AI fighter opposition, the jugs will be slaughtered.

Apologies for the aside, but how is the 47 different from the hawk in this regard?  Curious to hear your thoughts on this.

[BlitzPig_EL]

"Hawk", as in P40?

 

At least the P40 can actually maneuver some, and I am far more comfortable in it when in a defensive position..  Though in this late war time frame the question of the Curtiss Hawk is moot, yes?

 

The Thunderbolt is happy at 20,000ft. +, not in the low level role it finds itself in BoX.   An unescorted P47 is a dead P47.

[YouBet]

Regrettably, yes.

 

I also apologize for hijacking the thread.

 

I love flying the Lightning for all the points mentioned above. Was most looking forward to the Jug, though.

 

I'm not knocking the developers, and I'm sure that many can bring out performance charts arguing how accurate the developers' representation is... but flying the Jug is like watching your high school crush make out with your best friend.

[Beazil]

2 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

"Hawk", as in P40?

 

Though in this late war time frame the question of the Curtiss Hawk is moot, yes?

 

The Thunderbolt is happy at 20,000ft. +, not in the low level role it finds itself in BoX.   An unescorted P47 is a dead P47.

1.  Yes

2.  Not really, that is unless one looks at it like a p39 or p40, that are likewise a challenge to fly but are capable in the right hands of wreaking Havok?  And thank you for your comments.

3.  I feel the same way about the FW A series when outfitted for ground attack (or just without alt on its opponent).

 

I expected the 47 to be a better dogfighter than it appears to be, but I'm not very well versed in it and do appreciate comments from you pilots who understand this plane better than I do.  

 

Back to the subject at hand, the P38; I'm certainly not as competent in this bird as some of you, but I enjoy it when I can and find it a capable dogfighter.  

[[CPT]Crunch]

It was a great fighter while the visibility wasn't an issue.  Now everything's been pushed back to East Front mode.  It'll never excel at that, simply not its game.

[Lusekofte]

17 hours ago, YouBet said:

 

I love flying the Lightning for all the points mentioned above. Was most looking forward to the Jug, though.

Me too, but it is what it is. 
I use P 38 like I was hoping I would do with P 47. 
I like the climb rate of the P 38 in special. And its bombload is amazing

[smink1701]

4 hours ago, No.322_LuseKofte said:

Me too, but it is what it is. 
I use P 38 like I was hoping I would do with P 47. 
I like the climb rate of the P 38 in special. And its bombload is amazing

I’m right there with ya. I find the P38 to be a decent fighter and very stable gun platform compared to many of the pitch-happy alternatives. The P47 is useless which is very frustrating since I love jugs. 

[OrLoK]

p38 is my new multi role love.

[Taxman]

I'm with the posts that state the P-38 is my go to multi role fighter. I find it a capable fighter also and can hold my own with 109's, 190's and even 262's.  

 

As far as the P-47 is concerned I avoid dog fighting with it unless forced to or I have a good altitude advantage then B and Z only.  Good ground attack aircraft but I wish the flight leader would do one pass and haul ass

Edited December 22, 2019 by Taxman
Added text

[[URU]Panzer-uy]

English version:

COMBAT REPORT, headquarter 866IAP
07.11.1944 16.00

07.11.1945 at 12.50 group of 12 planes type “Lightning“ attacked troops of 3d corps of Ukrainian front, moving on the road from Nish to the westbound direction at Chamurlia region.
4 planes in formation were making an attack one by one diving from H400m leveling at 50m. Two groups of 4 were circling overhead at 1500m. After the first assault AA opened fire and shoot down 1 plane which crashed 1km North of the airfield.
At 13.00 pair of Yak-9 866IAP on duty took off, leader Lt. Krivonogih wingman 2d Lt.Shipulya. At 13.05 6 Yak-9 took off as well, commander Cpt.Bondar, 1st Lt. Surnev, 1st Lt. Zheleznov, 1st Lt.Poziba, Lt.Zhestovsky, 2d Lt.Serdyuk.
At 13.10 took off pair Yak-3 of Cpt.Koldunov, wingman 2d Lt.Krasyukov

The first pair after airborn making right hand turn started approaching to 4 P-38 involved in assault. 2 P-38 attacked pair of Lt.Krivonogih. 2d Lt.Shipulya attacked P-38 making secondary assault of the troops and set it in fire, P-38 with 40 degrees angle ran into the ground 500m North of the AF where it burned in flame.

Lt.Krivonogih while defending from 2 P-38 in the attack making vertical maneuver burned one of them, which came down in flame to the forest 8-10km to the North of the AF. During attack on the next P-38 Lt.Krivonogih got it’s tail, AA opened fire to both of them. Came to the bursts of AA plane of Lt.Krivonogih came in smoke, made a split and with an angle of 80-85 degrees ran into the ground 3km Noth-East of the AF.
Cpt.Bondar after airborn identified planes as American type P-38 Lightning and was trying to avoid dogfight maneuvering vertically and horizontally to give P-38 no opportunity to open fire to Yaks. 1st Lt. Surnev by rocking the wing let P-38 know they were friendly after that P-38 stopped attack and got away.
2d Lt.Serdyuk took off alone after all fighters and was being attacked by P-38 straight away. Avoiding the fight he saw another P-38 attacking Yak-9 and got in a hurry to help the Yak. After his attack P-38 fall down in flame 1km North-West of the AF.
Next Serdyuk attacked one more P-38, gave two long volleys from both cannon and machine-gun. P-38 came in smoke and flew away at North-West bound direction with descent.
2km to the North of Nish Lt.Zhestovsky was fighting with pair of Lightnings, attacked one of them from behind above side, P-38 came in smoke after the gun hit and flew away at North-West bound direction with descent.
The second Lightning attacked Yak of Lt.Zhestovsky and set it in fire. Lt.Zhestovsky got bullet’s hit to his right leg, right side and a finger of his right hand. He bailed out and grounded 8km North to Nish. His Yak burned completely.
1st Lt.Poziba after airborn climbed 2000m and started to form up with group of 12 P-38 coming to the airfield with heading 100. By rocking the wing he let them know he was friendly and pointed to the airfield. The Lightnings didn’t open the fire, turned back and flew away with heading 240. At the same time upto 60 P-38 were approaching from the west, they met the first group of P-38, turned back and disappeared in westbound direction.
Lt.Krasyukov after departure identified P-38s as American and didn’t start combat. He observed Yak-9 coming down in flame 1km North of the AF.

In this dogfight Lightnings downed 2 Yak-9. 2d Lt.Shipulya was KIA, Lt.Zhestovsky bailed out, Lt.Krivonogih KIA in friendly AA fire.
5 P-38 Lightning were downed by our fighters and AA.

Conclusion:
The group of P-38 lost orientation and when passing by attacked our troops identifying them as the enemy.
In the dogfight with Yak-9s P-38 showed good horizontal maneuvering and while level combat P-38 had superior and quite easily could catch Yak-9’s tail.
At vertical maneuver Yak-9s were superior.

 

Defense Ministry’s Central archives of Russian Federation, 866IAP.
RR_CAPILATUS вне форума

[Bremspropeller]

On 12/22/2019 at 5:22 PM, smink1701 said:

The P47 is useless which is very frustrating since I love jugs. 

 

No way, me too!

[frosen]

 

This is, hands down, the best documentary about the P-38 (and probably about any ww2 fighter) there is! I learned a ton of good stuff about this wonderful bird.

 

See it if you haven't already!

[LColony_Kong]

Guys the P-38 with full flaps, not 50%, will out turn ANY axis fighter in the game. That includes the K4 Unicorn on Fantasy Roids. A P-38 with 50% fuel with max flap turns at around 22.5 degrees per second. A Roided K4 does not even come close to that. Out-turning the K4 regardless of if its the fictional one or not is a breeze. Otherwise I agree that it is not fast for this stage of the war and has dive troubles. The real thing that will get you killed in the 38 in a turn fight is its large size and low speed roll rate. You have to apply alot of rudder assisted roll and use 50% flaps in order to stay in the fight until you get the fight below 200mph where you can open up your doom flaps.

 

 

The larger circles are for 50% flaps where the plane turns at about 19.5 degrees per second and is on par with a Mustang or K4. The P-38 can muster about a 16 second turn with max flap which was corroborated by Holtzauges calculations about a year ago. Dont restrict yourselves to the maneuver flap setting. In any turn battle where PS does not equal zero the maneuver setting is more than enough. By the time you are slow enough to be in a sustained turn battle you are flow enough to drop the flaps down to max and let them have it. They are also extremely useful for reducing radius enormously for one circle fights like a scissors or for hanging on your props in order to hammerhead over.

 

 

Edited July 11, 2020 by [TLC]MasterPooner

[CUJO_1970]

I miss the good ole days when P-38s were worth 200 points online.

[Requiem]

5 hours ago, [TLC]MasterPooner said:

Guys the P-38 with full flaps, not 50%, will out turn ANY axis fighter in the game. That includes the K4 Unicorn on Fantasy Roids. A P-38 with 50% fuel with max flap turns at around 22.5 degrees per second. A Roided K4 does not even come close to that. Out-turning the K4 regardless of if its the fictional one or not is a breeze. Otherwise I agree that it is not fast for this stage of the war and has dive troubles. The real thing that will get you killed in the 38 in a turn fight is its large size and low speed roll rate. You have to apply alot of rudder assisted roll and use 50% flaps in order to stay in the fight until you get the fight below 200mph where you can open up your doom flaps.

 

 

The larger circles are for 50% flaps where the plane turns at about 19.5 degrees per second and is on par with a Mustang or K4. The P-38 can muster about a 16 second turn with max flap which was corroborated by Holtzauges calculations about a year ago. Dont restrict yourselves to the maneuver flap setting. In any turn battle where PS does not equal zero the maneuver setting is more than enough. By the time you are slow enough to be in a sustained turn battle you are flow enough to drop the flaps down to max and let them have it. They are also extremely useful for reducing radius enormously for one circle fights like a scissors or for hanging on your props in order to hammerhead over.

 

 

I've been doing some testing of various airplanes recently, so I did the P-38 this morning and found max sustained turn rates in level turns of:

200 mph, clean  - 17.8°/sec

190 mph, Maneuver flaps - 19.1°/sec

180 mph, Full flaps - 20.3°/sec

 

For comparison vs the K-4 with DB engine (the DC engine is rare enough that it's not a priority to test for me):

300 km/hr (186mph) clean  - 19.1°/sec

 

For the G-14:

280 km/hr (186mph) clean - 20.2°/sec

 

My tests aren't done with Tacview though. They're done with an app that uses the telemetry output from Il-2 while flying and when I did a quick check between the app and recording Tacview, Tacview showed an extra 1.2  degrees of turn rate compared to the app at the exact same time when I held the turn rate constant in the P-38. There's always some error with this stuff so unless we get pure data from the devs there will be some small differences between tests. I'm not an advocate of using full flaps in any airplane unless you're desperate and are in a 1C fight or something. Maybe there isn't enough drag modeled when using full flaps.

 

 

 

[LColony_Kong]

20 hours ago, Requiem said:

I've been doing some testing of various airplanes recently, so I did the P-38 this morning and found max sustained turn rates in level turns of:

200 mph, clean  - 17.8°/sec

190 mph, Maneuver flaps - 19.1°/sec

180 mph, Full flaps - 20.3°/sec

 

For comparison vs the K-4 with DB engine (the DC engine is rare enough that it's not a priority to test for me):

300 km/hr (186mph) clean  - 19.1°/sec

 

For the G-14:

280 km/hr (186mph) clean - 20.2°/sec

 

My tests aren't done with Tacview though. They're done with an app that uses the telemetry output from Il-2 while flying and when I did a quick check between the app and recording Tacview, Tacview showed an extra 1.2  degrees of turn rate compared to the app at the exact same time when I held the turn rate constant in the P-38. There's always some error with this stuff so unless we get pure data from the devs there will be some small differences between tests. I'm not an advocate of using full flaps in any airplane unless you're desperate and are in a 1C fight or something. Maybe there isn't enough drag modeled when using full flaps.

 

 

 

Looking at your numbers you are getting more or less the same values at the speeds at which the plane settles into sustained turns, excepting your full flaps measurement. I am not sure how you got a measure of 20.3 seconds, that's not degree a second of difference, its 2. You might wanna try that again because I can consistently pull off 22.5 degrees per second regardless of whether I use tacview or simply using a compass and a stopwatch.

The drag values are accurate and were verified with an independent calculation. The 22.5 figure also agrees with other games the P-38 has been in. Also no sure why would would not use the max flaps in a dogfight. The raise and lower quick quickly so it is hardly an inconvenience to use them to their full potential.

Edited July 12, 2020 by [TLC]MasterPooner

[Requiem]

1 hour ago, [TLC]MasterPooner said:

Looking at your numbers you are getting more or less the same values at the speeds at which the plane settles into sustained turns, excepting your full flaps measurement. I am not sure how you got a measure of 20.3 seconds, that's not degree a second of difference, its 2. You might wanna try that again because I can consistently pull off 22.5 degrees per second regardless of whether I use tacview or simply using a compass and a stopwatch.

The drag values are accurate and were verified with an independent calculation. The 22.5 figure also agrees with other games the P-38 has been in. Also no sure why would would not use the max flaps in a dogfight. The raise and lower quick quickly so it is hardly an inconvenience to use them to their full potential.

After speaking with the app maker about these differences he's found a small error he needs to fix that would explain the difference, so thank you for sharing your results with the P-38. I spent a few hours yesterday getting performance numbers for eight airplanes to input into my EM diagrams which are now going into the bin...so while I'll have to redo them in a new version of the app at least I didn't do every airplane without knowing about the error. The 1.2 degree difference wasn't between our tests or any of my sustained turn tests, but the difference between what Tacview showed and the app showed during a quick test where I recorded a flight maintaining 10°/sec.

[frosen]

I browsed through the official IRL flight manual from 1945 today and it was very interesting. (Can be downloaded here> https://mega.nz/folder/WR9hwQoK#NXGsaNB-30aOO8Ki_KS0tA/file/ec1iBK4b)

 

I noticed that it said that you should control so the nose wheel is centered by looking at the mirrors on the engine sides. I only fly in VR and don't see anything else but the runway no matter how much I turn and toss in the seat. Anyone that can actually see the nose wheel?

 

Furthermore the stall and spin characteristics seemed a little too nice, it basically exits the spin by itself, contrary to the flight manual.

 

Anyway, my favorite bird ?

[ATAG_Headshot]

1 hour ago, frosen said:

I browsed through the official IRL flight manual from 1945 today and it was very interesting. (Can be downloaded here> https://mega.nz/folder/WR9hwQoK#NXGsaNB-30aOO8Ki_KS0tA/file/ec1iBK4b)

 

I noticed that it said that you should control so the nose wheel is centered by looking at the mirrors on the engine sides. I only fly in VR and don't see anything else but the runway no matter how much I turn and toss in the seat. Anyone that can actually see the nose wheel?

 

Furthermore the stall and spin characteristics seemed a little too nice, it basically exits the spin by itself, contrary to the flight manual.

 

Anyway, my favorite bird ?

Seeing your landing gear in the mirrors will depend on your graphics settings. If you have your mirrors setting turned down too low you won't see your own gear!

[BlitzPig_EL]

And those "mirrors" are actually just highly polished areas on the engine nacelles.

[Lusekofte]

P 38 is one of the planes That always be my favorite. Pretty good at everything. Excellent as a bomb truck. And pretty awesome firepower

[PatrickAWlson]

4 hours ago, 216th_LuseKofte said:

P 38 is one of the planes That always be my favorite. Pretty good at everything. Excellent as a bomb truck. And pretty awesome firepower

 

I think of it as the plane that the Me110 wished it could be.