AI and Normandy

[HappyHaddock]

The devs have said repeatedly from the start that we should not expect heavy bombers in IL-2, partly  because of the amount of AI coding/processing power to model all the crew/gunners in a single aircraft and partly because nobody wants to see a single heavy bomber flying on its own; they operate in large formations massively increasing both the overall development effort  to program such things and the subsequent processing demands to then run all this code.

 

With the devs having announced both a pre and post invasion map of Normandy it seems inconceivable that they won't attempt some sort of portrayal of the D-day landings, yet large warships with all their heavy guns and smaller MG's and AA will surely be at least as AI intensive as heavy bombers, plus to model the D-day landings you will not just need several warships but loads of supply ships and smaller landing craft just to give a hint of how much was going on. All of which could lead to much speculation about how the AI and game engine will cope?

 

Moving from the realms of plausible speculation to hopeless fantasy we can say that WWI was a conflict that cost millions their lives and where thousands died in no-mans land during single battles. Given that in Flying Circus we can fly over the front line without ever witnessing any foot soldiers, and that the Normandy beaches could be viewed as a similar environment in which thousands of soldiers were fighting to claim a long narrow strip of land, dare we speculate that some attempt may be made to better model a ground war?

 

With DCS already having released content for Normandy direct comparison will inevitably be made, where it seems unlikely that the devs would attempt this if they didn't feel confident they could offer something better than their competitors... all of which leads to two rather obvious questions.

 

1)Given what we know about the ability (inability?) of the current game engine to handle large numbers of different units how might what we have cope with  modelling the D-day landings?

 

2)Given the likely answers to question1 how far might people be willing to speculate in terms of possible improvements that might be made to increase the above, especially given that modern CPUs are going ever higher with available cores and threads?

 

Answers to the above will, of course, be idle speculation but dare we dream?

 

 

Edited December 2, 2019 by HappyHaddock

[Juri_JS]

20 minutes ago, HappyHaddock said:

1)Given what we know about the ability (inability?) of the current game engine to handle large numbers of different units how might what we have cope with  modelling the D-day landings?

There's a simple solution if you want a D-Day scenario with lots of ships - Make most of the ships static block objects without AI and just add a few AI ships for AA defence.

[Ouky1991]

15 minutes ago, Juri_JS said:

There's a simple solution if you want a D-Day scenario with lots of ships - Make most of the ships static block objects without AI and just add a few AI ships for AA defence.

Can you do this with "ships" in editor or you have to go to "blocks"? 

[Juri_JS]

Just now, Ouky1991 said:

Can you do this with "ships" in editor or you have to go to "blocks"? 

No, we will need ships as block objects. At the moment none are available.

[Feathered_IV]

1 hour ago, HappyHaddock said:

With the devs having announced both a pre and post invasion map of Normandy it seems inconceivable that they won't attempt some sort of portrayal of the D-day landings

 

Well, I originally thought it inconceivable that Tank Crew and the Battle of Prokhorovka map would not show the after-effects of one of the biggest opening artillery barrages in history.  Likewise it seemed inconceivable that the vastly devastated airfields and industrial areas of the Rhineland would in fact be portrayed as a pristine vision of prewar prosperity. 

 

1 hour ago, HappyHaddock said:

1)Given what we know about the ability (inability?) of the current game engine to handle large numbers of different units how might what we have cope with  modelling the D-day landings?

 

Going by what can be achieved at the moment I would say 10-12 ships positioned off the coast, and a similar number of static object landing craft on the beach.  Some widely spaced tank obstacles and opposing bunkers would complete the picture.  Half a dozen MG's firing tracer back and forth would simulate the assault itself.  The mission maker will probably position this directly beneath your aircraft's waypoints to try and suggest a larger battle.

 

1 hour ago, HappyHaddock said:

2)Given the likely answers to question1 how far might people be willing to speculate in terms of possible improvements that might be made to increase the above, especially given that modern CPUs are going ever higher with available cores and threads?

 

 

I don't anticipate too many changes to increase the number of actors that can be supported in a mission.  That is fine for me however, and I think my expectations have become well moderated in that department over the last couple of years.  I think where Battle of Normandy will really come into its own however is in the pre-invasion map and in the latter use of the D-Day map when it begins to portray a period where the fighting has moved inland.

Edited December 2, 2019 by Feathered_IV

[Yogiflight]

3 minutes ago, Feathered_IV said:

I think where Battle of Normandy will really come into its own however is in the pre-invasion map and in the latter use of the D-Day map when it begins to portray a period where the fighting has moved inland.

I am really curious about, what exactly the differences will be.

[[DBS]Browning]

1 hour ago, HappyHaddock said:

 it seems inconceivable that they won't attempt some sort of portrayal of the D-day landings

 

 

 

Given that Battle of Bodenplatte doesn't currently include a recreation of the events of Operation Bodenplatte, I don't think it's all that inconceivable that the Battle or Normandy won't include a recreation of the events of Operation Overlord.

Edited December 2, 2019 by [DBS]Browning

[Feathered_IV]

3 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

I am really curious about, what exactly the differences will be.

 

If I were to speculate I would say it would mostly be a depiction of D-Day +10 or something like that, with the addition of Marston matting airstrips along the coast. 

[354thFG_Leifr]

The fact that the Rhineland is in pristine condition in Bodenplatte should give you some expectation for how Normandy will appear on June 6th. ?

[ShamrockOneFive]

36 minutes ago, Leifr said:

The fact that the Rhineland is in pristine condition in Bodenplatte should give you some expectation for how Normandy will appear on June 6th. ?

 

Aside from the damaged cities?

 

[Feathered_IV]

Looks like arson.  Probably an inside job.  :p

[unreasonable]

1 hour ago, [DBS]Browning said:

 

 

Given that Battle of Bodenplatte doesn't currently include a recreation of the events of Operation Bodenplatte, I don't think it's all that inconceivable that the Battle or Normandy won't include a recreation of the events of Operation Overlord.

 

Hard to include a recreation of Operation Bodenplatte without an allied LAA gun for airfield defense, like the UK Bofors 40mm or the US 37mm M1.  I am completely baffled why these were not on the list for BoBP. 

 

 

[PatrickAWlson]

Given the tools today my recreation of Normandy would include:

Some destroyers for close to shore work.

Tanks and MGs on the beach.

AT guns and MGs in the cliffs

That's about it.

 

The whole scenario offers challenges until a bit after the invasion when things look "normal" again with opposing front lines.  

[Yogiflight]

A larger artillery caliber for the german side should be included as well, plus the 88mm AA gun with protection shield.

[Gambit21]

3 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

Tanks and MGs on the beach.

AT guns and MGs in the cliffs

That's about it.

 

The whole scenario offers challenges until a bit after the invasion when things look "normal" again with opposing front lines.  

 

Too many machine gun tracer streams (and I mean beyond just a few) kills FPS...you have to be careful with those.

Nothing close to the D-Day atmosphere with regard to tracers is possible unfortunately.

 

I've had to reduce machine guns in missions in favor of more important elements.

 

[Voyager]

As I recall, weren't the beach landings themselves largely unopposed by aircraft? I seem to recall that something like one Fw-190 actually responded to the landings, because the rest of the Luftwaffe was chasing snipes. 

[PatrickAWlson]

1 minute ago, Voyager said:

As I recall, weren't the beach landings themselves largely unopposed by aircraft? I seem to recall that something like one Fw-190 actually responded to the landings, because the rest of the Luftwaffe was chasing snipes. 

On the day, yes.  Pips Priller and his wingman made one strafing pass.  By that evening there was more activity, with some Ju88s attacking.  The Germans had largely withdrawn to defend the homeland by the time of Overlord.  What was left was no match for Allied airpower.

[Sgt_Joch]

The LW had around 500 ACs in France on D-Day, but that number went up to around 1,000 in a few days.

 

The German plan was to use bombers to attack the ships unloading the troops since that seemed the most cost effective method. They had a new type of secret magnetic mine ready to go, but they were unable to break through the Allied air cover . Total score was 4 ships, 2 warships including a DD and 2 transport ships, 2 sunk, 2 damaged, although one of the transport took down several hundred Allied troops with her. As I recall, one ship was sunk by a mine, one by remote controlled glide bomb.

 

One of the "secret" mines was dropped in shallow water 2-3 weeks after D-Day where it was recovered at low tide by British engineers. They had counter measures worked out and starting to be deployed within two weeks.

Edited December 2, 2019 by Sgt_Joch